More Scriptural proof of a Pre-trib. Rapture.

[presidente]

II Thessalonians 1 is pretty good proof that there will NOT be a pre-trib rapture, IMO. In that chapter, we see that Jesus returns to give the church rest WHEN He comes back executing judgment on them that deny the truth. I don't see how this is reconcilable with pre-trib, which requires some 'leaps of logic' and inference to arrive at anyway.

Why would those tribulational saints be appointed unto wrath anyway?

 

[RickyZ]

Oh, it matters greatly what you believe concerning the order of appearances between Christ and the False Christ. It could mean even your salvation if you allow yourself to be deceived. That's why we have multiple passages telling us the correct order and warning us about the Greatest Satanic Deception ever!!! Keep in mind we have ZERO teachings that there are two more returns of Christ.

The Rapture is a key component of Satan's deception. Most of the Church has fallen for it. I believe most of the church will be killed as a result because they will go out thinking it is Christ when it is the False Christ.

We know there is a great multitude in heaven who "Came out" of the Great Tribulation, see Rev 7. This means they died or were killed. We also know that by the time Christ returns, there will only be a remnant of Christians left. This is why I am doing my level best to spread the word on this Fake and Un Biblical Pre-Trib Rapture.

Woa woa woa there big fella. I'm on your side. Christ said what would befall us, and that many will turn away from Him because they weren't prepared for it. Why would someone prepare for something they don't think they're going to see? Because that is part of the lie, the great satanic deception. The same one that keeps saints from operating in the gifts of the Spirit (why would you operate in something you don't believe works?); and the same one that keeps them from understanding the spiritual realm. The parts about the millenium couldn't be clearer if God had put them on a wall calender. And yet people will argue that endlessly too. That's part of the great deception. The endless arguing. Saints who argue endlessly are saints who aren't doing God's will. The more we argue, the less we bless. Share the truth, if it's not received, then shake the dust and move on.

Like I told Roger above, Paul chewed the churches out for debate and division. Pre, mid, post or non, doesn't matter to the person who is sick, homeless, and losing their jobs. We step outside satan's deception when we unite around them.

 

[watcher2013]

Pre trib issues
1. No direct verses to support gathering before tribulation
2. No direct verses that show Believers are saved from tribulations, on the contrary there are verses that show believers suffer persecutions and tribulations.
3. Believers are saved from wrath of God…But pre trib won’t accept Pre-wrath.
4. The “elect” are:
a. Believers -1thess 1:4
b. Children of Israel –Isa 45:4
c. Or both- believers children of Israel
5. The “saints” are:
a. Persecuted saints/Church
From Ananias view: - Act 9:13KJv Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
From Paul’s view: Act_26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
Eph_4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
b. Children of Israel - Psa_148:14 He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints; even of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the LORD.
c. Or Both – like Paul and other disciples; Saints from the Children of Israel
Both “elect” and “saints” may mean the Church or they may mean the Children of Israel but they can also be both.
Pre-tribulation believed they are the UNBELIEVING Children of Israel.
6. Tribulation saints (saved by Christ or through the Law)
Act_20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
(The verse is very Clear...God purchased the Church with his own blood), Did this include the tribulation saints?

Pretrib believed that the Church shall be taken and those that were left behind will have a chance to be saved by following the Law or through works thus tribulation saints?
Is it even possible? Rev 9:20-21, Rev 16:9….NO.
There are more…..

 

[Donkeyfish07]

Pre trib issues
2. No direct verses that show Believers are saved from tribulations, on the contrary there are verses that show believers suffer persecutions and tribulations.

I'm not a pre-tribber myself, but to be fair regarding your point here. Pre tribulation believers do not believe that Christians never have to endure trials or tribulations. They agree with John 16:33.

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
"

It's GREAT tribulation they are speaking of, they do make a distinction there. Rev 7:14

"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
"

 

[watcher2013]

Pre-trib issues part 2
1. No Resurrection at 5[SUP]th[/SUP] Seal
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Here we can see the following:
a. the souls of the DEAD crying for revenge (verse 9-10)
b. They were told to continue to REST (state of being dead) for a little season, until the last servant that should be killed, should be fulfilled.
(Continue to being dead)
NO REVENGE THIS TIME….and NO RESURRECTION.
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2. Resurrection FIRST.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

3. Blessed are the tribulation Saints;
One of the popular arguments by pre-tribbers : those tribulation saints shall populate the earth in the kingdom.
Meaning, the Church shall be sexually/emotionally tortured while those tribulation saints enjoy the sex and married life in the kingdom. (don’t you want to be part of the tribulation saints, rather than the Church…Saved and enjoying married life in the kingdom)

 

[watcher2013]

I'm not a pre-tribber myself, but to be fair regarding your point here. Pre tribulation believers do not believe that Christians never have to endure trials or tribulations. They agree with John 16:33.

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
"

It's GREAT tribulation they are speaking of, they do make a distinction there. Rev 7:14

"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
"

They should called themselves then...Pre-GREAT tribulation
as you can see the 2nd issue is related to issue no 3..rere-wrath

 

[PlainWord]

One other thing; Hebrews 9:27 does not say ALL men.


Hebrews 9:27

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:





Plain, where in that passage do you see the word "all"?

It's not there.

Do you see the word, "SOME" there???

 

[watcher2013]

Another Pre trib issue:

Lord coming with ALL his Saints: 1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with ALL his saints.
Does this include the saints in Rev 13?
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

 

[PlainWord]

Another Pre trib issue:

Lord coming with ALL his Saints:1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with ALL his saints.
Does this include the saints in Rev 13?
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

You make an excellent point dear friend. The Lord returns with Saints. He returns will all His glory and to reign as King. Last time He came as a sacrificial lamb, this time He comes as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

You point this out below in 1 Thes 3:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

And in Rev 19:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

Now let's move forward to 1 Thes 4 to the supposed Rapture passage:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We see that both passages discuss the Lord returning with Saints. Nowhere is it told that the Lord then returns to heaven. We are told clearly that the "dead in Christ arise first." Again, the dead in Christ are being resurrected, and gathered to Him before the Living are gathered.

Are we to believe that the souls who return with Christ come back just to be given glorified bodies then returned back to heaven where they just came from? If that's the case why were they not just given glorified bodies when they died? Why did they have to wait for Christ to return to earth? Do they need those glorified bodies back in heaven during the Tribulation??? Or do they need them to reign with Christ on earth???

God doesn't waste time and energy for nothing. Similarly, Christ doesn't need to make two trips to earth to accomplish His mission. Christ returns to reign, not to take the Salt and Light out of the earth and tuck tail and run from Satan. He comes to destroy Satan and to rule the earth and set Creation straight again.

 

[presidente]

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

That sounds like Jesus is bringing the saints back with him from heaven in that translation. I recall reading a Greek professor's commetnary on it, and if I remember right, he translated/interpreted the Greek to mean that God would gather together the saitns who are asleep together with Christ.

Are we to believe that the souls who return with Christ come back just to be given glorified bodies then returned back to heaven where they just came from? If that's the case why were they not just given glorified bodies when they died? Why did they have to wait for Christ to return to earth? Do they need those glorified bodies back in heaven during the Tribulation??? Or do they need them to reign with Christ on earth???

You are making an assumption. Where does the Bible say anything about the resurrected dead going to heaven? Revelation talks about ruling and reigning with Christ for a thousand years, presumably on earth. Then the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven in John's visions. Where is the part about the resurrected saints going to heaven?

 

[watcher2013]

You make an excellent point dear friend. The Lord returns with Saints. He returns will all His glory and to reign as King. Last time He came as a sacrificial lamb, this time He comes as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

You point this out below in 1 Thes 3:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

And in Rev 19:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

Now let's move forward to 1 Thes 4 to the supposed Rapture passage:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We see that both passages discuss the Lord returning with Saints. Nowhere is it told that the Lord then returns to heaven. We are told clearly that the "dead in Christ arise first." Again, the dead in Christ are being resurrected, and gathered to Him before the Living are gathered.

Are we to believe that the souls who return with Christ come back just to be given glorified bodies then returned back to heaven where they just came from? If that's the case why were they not just given glorified bodies when they died? Why did they have to wait for Christ to return to earth? Do they need those glorified bodies back in heaven during the Tribulation??? Or do they need them to reign with Christ on earth???

God doesn't waste time and energy for nothing. Similarly, Christ doesn't need to make two trips to earth to accomplish His mission. Christ returns to reign, not to take the Salt and Light out of the earth and tuck tail and run from Satan. He comes to destroy Satan and to rule the earth and set Creation straight again.

Hope the OP response to this issue aswell

 

[PlainWord]

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

That sounds like Jesus is bringing the saints back with him from heaven in that translation. I recall reading a Greek professor's commetnary on it, and if I remember right, he translated/interpreted the Greek to mean that God would gather together the saitns who are asleep together with Christ.



You are making an assumption. Where does the Bible say anything about the resurrected dead going to heaven? Revelation talks about ruling and reigning with Christ for a thousand years, presumably on earth. Then the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven in John's visions. Where is the part about the resurrected saints going to heaven?

Exactly. I don't see anywhere the living saints being taken to heaven. I was asking the same question of Pre-Tribbers as you ask.

Christ is coming to earth. We are not going to the current heaven. The current heaven contains souls, not living transfigured human beings in spiritual bodies.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Yes, we have been over this repeatedly. Let's try again.

AIR is NOT the SKY
AIR is AER which means air that we breathe.

Plain; don't be silly now.

The phrase "in the air" appears only three times in the King James Holy Bible. And each time it is appears in Scripture, it is referring to the sky.

Now these are the three places in Scripture in which it appears:



Deuteronomy 4:17-18

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


17 the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, 18 the likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:



Proverbs 30:19

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

19 the way of an eagle in the air;
the way of a serpent upon a rock;
the way of a ship in the midst of the sea;
and the way of a man with a maid.





1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



And so again; each time the phrase: "in the air" appears in the Scriptures, it means the sky. That should be clear to any student of the Scriptures.


Also; notice in 1 Thessalonians 4:17; where it says that the living Christians are caught up together with the resurrected saints in Christ, and notice that we are caught up with them in the clouds. Plain, where are clouds?


They are in the Sky.


Plain, this ain't rocket science. Stop trying to complicate the simplicity of the Bible teaching of the Pre-trib. Rapture.

Clouds of Heaven are NOT a puffy little rain cloud that we are used to seeing. The "cloud" the Lord returns in is probably not a cloud at all but is the closest thing any human can use to describe it. It is probably something very supernatural like an opening to another dimension where heaven is.

There you go again Plain, trying to spiritualize or allegorize something in the Scriptures which is meant to be taken literal.

I supose that is what you post tribbers have to do in order to continue in your unbelief of a Pre-trib. Rapture.

Clouds mean Clouds. IN the context of the passage concerning the Rapture (1 Thess. 4:17), clouds mean clouds.

Futhermore, I looked up every reference of 'cloud' in the Scriptures, and every reference except for one, meant a cloud.

I then looked up every reference in the Scriptures for the word 'clouds' and again, every single instance the word 'clouds' appear in the holy word of God, except for a couple of places, it means clouds.


Again Plain; you are trying too hard. Stop complicating the simplicity of the teaching of the Rapture.

Please try to pay close attention to the below from Acts 1:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Notice that Jesus was taken up THEN a "Cloud" received him? Notice that suddenly angels where there? How did they get there? Did the same Cloud from Heaven deliver them? Just a thought.

Plain, I believe the cloud referenced in Acts 1:9 is a cloud. Plain and simple.

Keep things simple.

Notice that the Lord returns in LIKE MANNER to how He left? How did He leave again? Was Christ already in the sky when He started out or was he on the ground with his disciples? He started from the ground, went up into the sky, then the cloud received him. So if he is returning in like manner, he isn't going to be hovering in some cloud. The cloud will deliver him to the sky at which point he will descend to earth.

Plain, I see what you are trying to get at, but keep in mind, Jesus ascended twice. Here is where Jesus ascended the very first time since His Resurrection:



John 20:17-21

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peacebe unto you. 20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them hishands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. 21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.


The Second Ascension of Jesus takes place in Acts 1:9.


Therefore just as there were two parts to the physical Ascenscion of Jesus Christ. There will also be two parts to Christ's Second Coming.

There is only one future return of Christ ever taught and you cannot find one lesson that discusses two separate returns and that my friend is a FACT!!

There are two parts to the future return of Christ.

The first part is the Rapture of the Body of Christ, where Christ only comes for His bride in secret.

And then the second part is His Second Advent where He physically comes back to the Earth with His saints (See Jude 1:14).

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Please show many any passage that says, "Tribulation saints." There isn't one. Know why? Because such distinction is never made because there is no Pre-Trib Rapture. WOW.

Plain, please show me a passage that says: "Old Testament Saints."

How about a passage that says: "New Testament Saints."?

I did a search for both of these phrases: "Old Testament Saints" and also "New Testament Saints" and I found zero results.

Now even though these two phrases do not appear anywhere in the Holy Scriptures; still we know that these two groups of people exist. How?

Simple. From the very teaching of the Holy Scrptures.

For example Plain, let me ask you, was Moses saved?

How about Enoch?

Was David saved???

Now the answers to these questions should be obvious and easy. As it shoould be clear to anyone reading this that I am being sarcastic. Of course Moses, David, and Enoch were saved. The Scriptures teach that they were and are saved. Therefore, they are saints.

But guess what Plain, they are Saints from the Old Testament. And justlike there are Old Testament Saints, we know that there obviously New Testament Saints also.

Therefore, just because the term "tribulation saint" cannot be found in the Scriptures; the teaching of Scripture does indicate that there will be saved people in the tribulation period (time of Jacob's trouble), so your reasoning and logic is not very consistent.


And the Holy Scriptures do make a distinction in the way how people are saved today in the Dispensation of Grace (also known as the Church Age) and how those in the tribulation period will be saved.

The Bible makes clear distinctions. Salvation in the time of Jacob's trouble will not be as it is today in the Church Age; and this very fact in the Scriptures further proves a Pre-trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ.

 

[Cassian]

In looking through the thread I noticed a lot of very good scriptural statements that clearly debunk the theory of pre-millennialism. As is true of most false teachings, they invariably deny some important aspect of scripture dealing with salvation itself.

One of the major tenets is that Christ is NOT now reigning. They will state that Christ can only reign when He returns to rule on this earth. Whether they realize it or not, that statement negates the salvation of anyone in this present age.

In the OT prophecies it is clearly stated that when Christ is King He also will be our High Priest.
Here are some of those texts...
Psalm 110:1-4 - Jesus would sit on God's right hand , ruling in the midst of His enemies . He would be a priest after the order of Melchizedek. Melchizedek was King of Salem and priest of God (Genesis 14:18). So the Messiah would be king and priest at the same time!
Zech. 6:12,13 - 3:8; Isaiah 53:2; 11:1; Jeremiah 23:5; 33:15; Romans 15:12). He would rule on his throne, and be a priest on his throne. Again, King and Priest at the same time.

If Christ is not now King, then He is not now our High Priest. We have a sacrifice performed by Christ at His first advent, but it cannot be used until some future date when He rules as King on this earth. Consequently, we, that is all human beings from 33AD to at least 2014 cannot have their sins forgiven. No sins forgiven, we are still in our sins and will suffer eternal condemnation.
This is actually forever because scripture also states in Heb 9:28 that Christ when He comes again will not be for sin, but in glory and power to judge.

So the effect of such a theory, though quite benign by its proponents, denies salvation of man. It negates the whole idea of Christ calling out the elect from among all nations. The ONLY reason for the sacrifice for sin was to be able to forgive sins in this life, the Messianic Age so that God could dwell in the Temples, our bodies, without sin.
So, IF Christ is NOW our Priest, then pre-millennialism is a false teaching.

I'm sure they will redefine scripture to make the sacrifice effectual in this age, but to do so they again need to ignore or change the meaning of scripture.

 

[presidente]

ChosenByHim, how about the words or phrases in the actual language the apostles and prophets wrote? Why should we care what phrases some translators used centuries after the canon was closed?

 

[presidente]

One of the major tenets is that Christ is NOT now reigning. They will state that Christ can only reign when He returns to rule on this earth.

No. One does not have to believe that to be premillinealist.

Psalm 110:1-4 - Jesus would sit on God's right hand , ruling in the midst of His enemies . He would be a priest after the order of Melchizedek. Melchizedek was King of Salem and priest of God (Genesis 14:18). So the Messiah would be king and priest at the same time!

Zech. 6:12,13 - 3:8; Isaiah 53:2; 11:1; Jeremiah 23:5; 33:15; Romans 15:12). He would rule on his throne, and be a priest on his throne. Again, King and Priest at the same time.

Great verses. Non say anything against pre-mil.

In Acts, the apostles asked if, at that time, the Lord would restore the kingdom again to Israel. Jesus did not rebuke them for the question, but said it was not for them to know the times appointed by His Father.

Christ still reigns in the interim.

 

[Cassian]

No. One does not have to believe that to be premillinealist.

Given the fact that there are several variations in existence, all trying to establish some form of premillennialism, you could be correct. However, the very fact that there are so many veriations also is evidence that they are false. If it was actually a teaching of scripture, it would have had a singular meaning from the beginning.

Great verses. Non say anything against pre-mil.

Actually they do, they point out that those that claim Christ cannot be King now, can ONLY be King on earth, it clearly shows the error of premillennialism.

In Acts, the apostles asked if, at that time, the Lord would restore the kingdom again to Israel. Jesus did not rebuke them for the question, but said it was not for them to know the times appointed by His Father.

so you hang a whole theory on this one verse?

Christ still reigns in the interim.

fortunately in your view, but not in others.

 

[mpaper345]

The Bible says do not be deceived by anyone for the gathering unto Christ shall not happen until the man of sin appears on the world scene.

The world can repent of their sins until they take the mark of the beast which happens halfway through the tribulation period.

As long as the world can repent of their sins God will not His children home.

God is going to give the world 7 years to go against the truth then He will put them down.

That means the saints have to be on earth during the tribulation or there would be no truth to go against.

The beast blasphemes against God and His tabernacle which if the saints were not on earth the beast would not go against God and His tabernacle for their would be nobody to go against and the beast would not have to convince the world that Christianity is false.

The Bible says the beast makes war against the saints,the saints are given in to the little horn's hand for three and one half years,and the last king who will be of fierce countenance and understanding sentences who will be powerful but not by his own power shall destroy the holy and mighty people.

There is no pre-trib resurrection

As for Jacob's trouble it means that during that 7 years the Gentile governments will fall from the truth and Israel will come to the truth by way of 2 witnesses sent to them by God and the world persecutes them for that.

God is going to give the world 7 years to go against the truth which the last king will cast the truth to the ground and stamp upon it and shall cause witchcraft nature worship to be the world's agenda so the saints have to be on this earth or there is no truth to go against and the world can repent of their sins during the first half of the tribulation and as long as they can repent of their sins the saints will be on earth and God is going to take all His saints at one time for there is only 2 resurrections one of the saints and one of the dead after the millennial reign of Christ.

 

[presidente]

Given the fact that there are several variations in existence, all trying to establish some form of premillennialism, you could be correct. However, the very fact that there are so many veriations also is evidence that they are false. If it was actually a teaching of scripture, it would have had a singular meaning from the beginning.

What about the thousand variations of post-mil and amil?

Actually they do, they point out that those that claim Christ cannot be King now, can ONLY be King on earth, it clearly shows the error of premillennialism.

But Christ is King, and He will restore the kingdom to Israel in God's appointing time.

so you hang a whole theory on this one verse?

No. There are many other verses. But doesn't it bother you if your theory can be toppled by one verse?