Mormons / Latter Day Saints

[Flamingspirit]

Since you cannot see my heart, you need to know, my motive for talking to them certainly is out of LOVE and Concern that they have fallen for a False Prophet, and are on the broad road to destruction without even knowing it.

I repeat, "How is loving them enough to tell them the truth, NOT LOVE?"

We are all on the broad path of destruction if you honestly see your sin no better than another. We enter the kingdom by death, never realizing that it was right in front of our faces the whole time.

That is not love displayed but an expectant reward because you feel your knowledge is true and theirs is wrong. That may be the case but knowledge puffs up. Love would just be wrong for the sake of saving them. Just like arguing with your wife. You might end the argument in love saying you were wrong when you knew you were right. But you don't want to sleep on the couch lol.

 

[Flamingspirit]

Where have I heard that before? Wasn't it Karl Marx? That concept of everyone owns everything co-equally, FAILED MISERABLY.

I don't know him. But I'm sure his system involved money somehow and is again of the old man. You understood what free was when you was a baby. Then you knew God perfectly as we all did.

What do you think revelation is about? "No one buys their merchandise any more". It is the Lord's release.

 

[Flamingspirit]

VCO, have you ever studied how ants live? If we imitate them, not even death will stand in our way!

 

[VCO]

I don't know him. But I'm sure his system involved money somehow and is again of the old man. You understood what free was when you was a baby. Then you knew God perfectly as we all did.

What do you think revelation is about? "No one buys their merchandise any more". It is the Lord's release.

Chapter and verse PLEASE.

 

[VCO]

I don't know him. But I'm sure his system involved money somehow and is again of the old man.
. . .

Did you sleep through World History Class or what?

Karl Marx was the father of Communism.

 

[Flamingspirit]

OH are you wrong about the sin nature we are born with.

Put two 2 year old children on a rug, and ONE toy between them and watch how fast the sin of selfishness raises it's ugly head.

Your example is a bit twisted in my opinion. Strange, very strange.

That's not sin but 2 kids wanting to play with 1 doll. Put 2 or more in the room however and they will play happily with each other.

Again sin is taught. So I would ask who would put 2 kids in a room with only 1 doll? Only someone who previously knows what this scenario would bring about!

The kids only knew they wanted to both play with the toy.

 

[Flamingspirit]

Did you sleep through World History Class or what?

Karl Marx was the father of Communism.

No. I just know not to trust everything at face value. Even the schools are against us! Plus history is taught by the victors and thus never a true depiction of what actually took place. Therefore you need common sense.

 

[Flamingspirit]

And outside sources.

 

[VCO]

VCO, have you ever studied how ants live? If we imitate them, not even death will stand in our way!

John 3:3 (NIV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

John 3:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Zechariah 12:1 (NIV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares:

Ephesians 2:5 (NIV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.

Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

1 John 5:11 (NKJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

John 3:36 (NIV)
[SUP]36 [/SUP] Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

You must be born again to have that eternal victory over death.

 

[VCO]

No. I just know not to trust everything at face value. Even the schools are against us! Plus history is taught by the victors and thus never a true depiction of what actually took place. Therefore you need common sense.

My, look who has bought the conspiracy theory garbage. You never were in the Military were you?


Romans 13:1-7 (NIV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Remember these bought and paid for your right to voice your opinions.

 

[VCO]

That's not sin but 2 kids wanting to play with 1 doll. Put 2 or more in the room however and they will play happily with each other.

Again sin is taught. So I would ask who would put 2 kids in a room with only 1 doll? Only someone who previously knows what this scenario would bring about!

The kids only knew they wanted to both play with the toy.

NO it is the sin nature we are all born with.

 

[Flamingspirit]

NO it is the sin nature we are all born with.

Show me one verse please. I can show plenty about no child born knowing good nor evil. Or we battle not flesh and blood. Or to judge not by appearances. All these and more shows that no child is born such. Born into is what our enemy is. Childrens angels always behold the face of God.

 

[oldernotwiser]

Where have I heard that before? Wasn't it Karl Marx? That concept of everyone owns everything co-equally, FAILED MISERABLY.

it's true that marxism (at least marxist leninism ) failed totally in eastern europe but capitalism seems to have failed as badly in central and south america. (been there and theyre not nice.) maybe we need some kind of mix like the scandanavian countries.

 

[oldernotwiser]

My, look who has bought the conspiracy theory garbage. You never were in the Military were you?


Romans 13:1-7 (NIV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.



this can be a little more difficult at times. the nazi government of germany was legitimate as was the soviet government of stalin. when does the christian draw the line. paul also says to give what is owed. in an honor shame society if an individual lost honor by deviant actions they would lose respect as well. the mennonites have written a lot about that passage. oh yes, i was in the military. 8 years between army and air force. i got out as a conscientious objector after seeing planes with 6 h bombs each sitting at the takeoff end of the runway during the cuban missile crisis. basically, seeing them made me realize that the use of that kind of force violates one of the basic rules of christian just war theory, proportionality and even as a crash fireman i couldnt be a part of it..

 

[VCO]

We are all on the broad path of destruction if you honestly see your sin no better than another. We enter the kingdom by death, never realizing that it was right in front of our faces the whole time.

That is not love displayed but an expectant reward because you feel your knowledge is true and theirs is wrong. That may be the case but knowledge puffs up. Love would just be wrong for the sake of saving them. Just like arguing with your wife. You might end the argument in love saying you were wrong when you knew you were right. But you don't want to sleep on the couch lol.

No Flame, only those who come through the Narrow Gate, of receiving Jesus Christ of the Bible as GOD in the flesh, and LORD, which means Master; are those on the Narrow path to Heaven. Both Gates are marked "This Way To HEAVEN", but the Wide gate is the DECEIVER Satan's trick. All followers of the False Christs, False Gospels, and False Plans of Salvation go through that Broad Gate, but it only leads to this Destruction:

Matthew 10:28 (HCSB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Don’t fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul; rather, fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 7:13-14 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction {in Hell}, and there are many who go through it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to {Eternal} life, and few find it.

Matthew 7:15-20 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing {Disguised as Pastors and Prophets.} but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.

Matthew 7:21-24 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! {That inner personal Love Relationship with Jesus Christ of the Bible, where we lovingly submit to His LORDSHIP.} Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
[SUP]24 [/SUP] “Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them will be like a sensible man who built his house on the rock.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

Maybe NOW, you can understand my sense of urgency to reach out in godly LOVE and lead them through the Narrow Gate. I know this analogy will date me, but you do not let a child touch a red hot Pot Belly Stove, you loudly warn them "DON'T TOUCH THAT, YOU WILL GET BURNED", and you do that because you LOVE THEM. Yes when we burned coal in ours you could see it glowing red at night.

 

[Dan_473]

I believe that any Translation Team, that is made up of ONLY genuine born again Translators, who geniunely BELIEVES in praying to be FILLED with the Spirit that day, as they Translate; will receive that help from the Holy Spirit to translate accurately. So NO, I do not believe the KJV is the only English Translation that GOD recognizes as Valid. The WORD OF GOD is what the verse MEANS by what it says, and not which Translation is printed on the page. YES, I believe there are several English Translations out there that where Translated by Spirit Filled Translators and have thus captured the meaning of the verses accurately, THUS THEY ARE TRULY THE WORD OF GOD.

Are there bad translations out there? Certainly, and the New World Translation is so bad that I would have to call it a perversion and not a translation at all. When there is a choice to make, because the original manuscript (oldest we have found) has a word with multiple meanings, have they occasionally made less than the best choice? Now that would be opening it up to a matter of personal preference, and what speaks to the heart of the individual. That is why, when a Christian matures, he should do word studies for himself; NOT TO ARRIVE AT A DIFFERENT MEANING BUT A DEEPER ONE.

I will give you an example:

The GREEK word chelepos in the KJV is translated perilous.

2 Timothy 3:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 Timothy 3:1 (ASV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But know this, that in the last days grievous times shall come.

2 Timothy 3:1 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.

2 Timothy 3:1 (NRSV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]You must understand this, that in the last days distressing times will come.

2 Timothy 3:1 (NIV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.

Now NONE of those are an incorrect translation, because that Greek word chelepos can be translated to every one of those words, plus two more: violent and vicious.

2 Timothy 3:1 (GW)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] You must understand this: In the last days there will be violent periods of time.

So when we do the word study for chelepos, we don't gain a different understanding, but rather a DEEPER understanding of what GOD was referring to. And in the here and now, when we watch the nightly News on TV, we know God's Word is TRUE, vicious times have come.

So which translations do I personally use? Just like it the above example, when I study God's Word, I find it helpful to look at several Translations, knowing it is what the verse means by what it says that is actually the Word of GOD, not a specific Translation. I have WORDsearch 10 as my primary Bible Software Library. When I open the program, I have it set to automatically pull up 10 Translations. In the order of my personal preference, here are those ten Translations that I use:
NKJV, HCSB, NASB, ESV, KJV, ASV, NRSV, NIV, YLT, ​& GW.

How did you learn of the relationship with God of all the translators of all those versions? I checked the footnote in the nasb for Mark 16...I think it says the ending is from later manuscripts... Have you been able to learn something they didn't know? I'm enjoying this discussion a lot, BTW... I hope you are too!

 

[Dan_473]

Yes it is a typo, and it is the reason I have asked Admin several times to give us more time to correct typos. That 5 minutes is WAY TOO LITTLE TIME, and this is a perfect example why. Sorry!

That's cool

 

[Dan_473]

That could be, but I have to remind myself, that thee HOLY GOD who gave it pure and true through the minds of sinful men in the first place, is ALSO POWERFUL ENOUGH to keep it pure and true through the minds of Translators.

Good! I'm very interested in his you learned about the translators, then..

 

[Dan_473]

Is there a gift for discerning spirits?

YES, but for EVERY person with a discerning spirit; there is a multitude of deceiving spirits in the world.

Every person who has genuinely been BORN AGAIN, has the Holy Spirit in him or her, WHO IS THE ULTIMATE DISCERNER of TRUTH. That Holy Spirit not only pours Love for God into our hearts, but HE brings our once dead to the will of GOD human spirit to ETERNAL LIFE, right then and there, the moment we first believe. That new BORN AGAIN human spirit, thinks with a spirit mind, that is not the fleshly mind, and it is hungry for the WORD. As we feed it the WORD of GOD, it grows stronger, maturing spiritually. The spiritually mature human spirit eventually can discern true from false, and understands the spiritual truths in the BIBLE. I do not expect you to understand a bit of that, in fact I suspect you will find it all foolishness, even though it is all Biblical Truth.

1 Corinthians 2:10 (NKJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

1 Corinthians 2:12-16 (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But the natural man {any man or woman not yet Born Again} does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Why do you expect that I wouldn't understand a word of it? Anyways, sounds like you not only think the discernment of spirits is for today, but that every born again person grows it...

 

[VCO]

My, look who has bought the conspiracy theory garbage. You never were in the Military were you?


Romans 13:1-7 (NIV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.



this can be a little more difficult at times. the nazi government of germany was legitimate as was the soviet government of stalin. when does the christian draw the line. paul also says to give what is owed. in an honor shame society if an individual lost honor by deviant actions they would lose respect as well. the mennonites have written a lot about that passage. oh yes, i was in the military. 8 years between army and air force. i got out as a conscientious objector after seeing planes with 6 h bombs each sitting at the takeoff end of the runway during the cuban missile crisis. basically, seeing them made me realize that the use of that kind of force violates one of the basic rules of christian just war theory, proportionality and even as a crash fireman i couldnt be a part of it..

A soldier or policeman is not function as an individual, he is functioning as an arm of Government. God's Rule for Governmental conduction are not the same as God's rules for personal conduct. THEREFORE, I do not believe a Soldier or a Policeman of any kind commits murder when he or she pulls the trigger in the line of Duty. God expects them, when they are functioning as an arm of Government, to use their weapons when it is appropriate: " for he does not bear the sword for nothing ".

I realize the current case in MO. is still waiting to hear all the facts, so I will wait until all of the facts are presented in court, to determine if the shooting was in the line of Duty. I heard yesterday there was witness that claims Michael Brown was threateningly, charging to attack the Officer. Which explains no wounds in the back. Ultimately it will be the Jury's call.

I remember the Cuban Missile Crisis, I was in High School at the time. I watched a documentary on the History Channel a couple months back, and out Bombers were actually 45 minutes out from their Russian Targets, fully armed with Nukes, when Khrushchev called the President, and said "You are crazy, I will pull our missiles out of Cuba."

Yes there comes a point when GOD will call enemy Armies to do battle against and EVIL RULER. I believe GOD called us into WWII. It is those times a Christian is to Chose which side he will fight on. I am amazed that there not more Christian German soldiers surrendering sooner. But a lot of those who tried to surrender were shot by the Nazi SS.