Mormons / Latter Day Saints

Dan_473 · Aug 19, 2014

There are a couple of schools of thought about where it all took place. The predominant thought is that after the great battles and the Nephites were wiped out in the Mexico City area around 420 AD, a group of around 15, headed by Moroni, took the sacred records and went north, eventually coming to the present day city of Palmyra, New York. There he wrote his farewell book and then deposited the plates on a hill which we call today, Cumorah. Moroni lived approximately 30 years after the collapse of the Nephite empire, so it was well within reason that he could have made the trek north in plenty of time within that 30 years.

In 1823, this same Moroni was sent by the Lord to a young Joseph Smith, who was given the plates and translated them into English. The Book of Mormon has now been translated into 87 languages in whole and another 25 in part. It is one of the most widely printed and distributed books in the world. Of course the Bible is first.

Thanks for the info... As I said, I don't think the bom came from God, but I do think the nephites make an interesting story...

Dan_473 · Aug 19, 2014

Kerry said:

For me, one difference is whether the bible is perfect, or just close to perfect... It can be a real crisis of faith when a perfect bible believer becomes aware of some of the questions around that... Can also be a real growing time, too... And I want to keep an own mind... Maybe the bible is perfect...

VCO · Aug 19, 2014

Dan_473 said:

The Bible was perfect, in it's original manuscripts, because it was completely inspired by GOD the Holy Trinity Himself.
Any time we think we found a Contradiction, we can be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that we lack understanding about what was really being said or are lacking the clarification of additional related verses, AND/OR we have misinterpreted either one or both verses. GOD does not contradict HIMSELF.

Deuteronomy 32:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For I will proclaim Yahweh’s name. Declare the greatness of our God!
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The Rock—His work is perfect; all His ways are entirely just. A faithful God, without prejudice, He is righteous and true.

daniel606 · Aug 19, 2014

Well, here's how it is. The Book of Mormon, as a book is an incredible piece of literature. In fact it is so good, that it either came from God, or it came from Satan. A completely inexperienced Joseph Smith or any famous doctor of religion or of literature or of ancient civilizations could not have written that book in 1830 about that people. So again it had to come from God or Satan.

If you read or have read the book, you will find that the only theme throughout is God and Jesus Christ and how They interacted with the people in the BOM. Remember, the people of the BOM were of the house of Joseph of the house of Israel, so God was as interested in them as he was in the other people of the house of Israel in the Jerusalem area. The BOM started in Jerusalem around 600 BC.

So if God and Jesus Christ are the center-piece of the BOM and they are worshipped and glorified as the Creator of the earth and universe, and bring salvation to all mankind, then it seems possible that this kind of positive information about God came from God. If Satan had done it, it would be darker and twisted in a way that would not reflect the glory of God.

The BOM people that lived before Christ, looked forward to his birth, and were given signs of that birth. When Jesus was crusified and put to death, this side of the globe was racked with darkness and earthquakes and fire. After this destruction, and after Jesus had been resurrected and gone to the Father in heaven, he returned to the earth to the American continent to these people of the house of Israel and showed them the marks in his hands and feet and side and they fell down and worshipped, finally seeing the Christ that they had so long waited for. He taught them His gospel for many days. It is a wonderful, true story. That is why the leaders of the white europeans were mistaken (if only for a moment) as being this great god that had come to their ancestors 1500 years earlier.

If God is the author, it would roll forth even though Satan would rage and resist every effort to have it translated, printed and distributed, which he did. If God is the author it would eventually go to all nations of the earth, just like the Bible as another witness that He is real and that He is in charge of the salvation of men and what happens on the earth. He is the Creator and we must believe in Him and worship Him only. If Satan were the author it would have resulted in failure.

VCO · Aug 19, 2014

Dan_473 said:

There were Apostolic GIFTS (the ability to work Miracles, signs, and wonders) were given to the Apostles to validate that they spoke from GOD.

The problem with claiming to have the Apostolic Gifts today, is one was ONLY qualified to be an Apostle if he actually saw the risen LORD. And the problem with imitating the Apostolic Gifts today, is they FALL WAY SHORT of what the Apostles actually did, and thus are counterfeits.

And there are several spiritual gifts, HE intended for believers in the CHURCH. GOD assigns them, but you can and will discover which gifts HE gave us. For example, I was not gifted to teach Jr. High teenagers, they were bored them to tears whole time that I tried to teach Jr. High Sunday School, at two different Churches. But I was very gifted to teach inmates, and the messages just flowed from me, and the messages held the interest of the inmates for the 45 minutes to an hour sermons.

I absolutely believe GOD HEALS MIRACULOUSLY IN ANSWER TO PRAYER, and I have seen it a number of times. HOWEVER, I do not believe he gives the POWER to heal at will to individuals, because that was an Apostolic Gift. HOWEVER I do believe GOD gives a gift of praying for healings (sometimes called a Prayer Warrior), and his or her prayers are frequently answered.

VCO · Aug 19, 2014

daniel606 said:

Well, here's how it is. The Book of Mormon, as a book is an incredible piece of literature. In fact it is so good, that it either came from God, or it came from Satan. A completely inexperienced Joseph Smith or any famous doctor of religion or of literature or of ancient civilizations could not have written that book in 1830 about that people. So again it had to come from God or Satan.

If you read or have read the book, you will find that the only theme throughout is God and Jesus Christ and how They interacted with the people in the BOM. Remember, the people of the BOM were of the house of Joseph of the house of Israel, so God was as interested in them as he was in the other people of the house of Israel in the Jerusalem area. The BOM started in Jerusalem around 600 BC.

So if God and Jesus Christ are the center-piece of the BOM and they are worshipped and glorified as the Creator of the earth and universe, and bring salvation to all mankind, then it seems possible that this kind of positive information about God came from God. If Satan had done it, it would be darker and twisted in a way that would not reflect the glory of God.

The BOM people that lived before Christ, looked forward to his birth, and were given signs of that birth. When Jesus was crusified and put to death, this side of the globe was racked with darkness and earthquakes and fire. After this destruction, and after Jesus had been resurrected and gone to the Father in heaven, he returned to the earth to the American continent to these people of the house of Israel and showed them the marks in his hands and feet and side and they fell down and worshipped, finally seeing the Christ that they had so long waited for. He taught them His gospel for many days. It is a wonderful, true story. That is why the leaders of the white europeans were mistaken (if only for a moment) as being this great god that had come to their ancestors 1500 years earlier.

If God is the author, it would roll forth even though Satan would rage and resist every effort to have it translated, printed and distributed, which he did. If God is the author it would eventually go to all nations of the earth, just like the Bible as another witness that He is real and that He is in charge of the salvation of men and what happens on the earth. He is the Creator and we must believe in Him and worship Him only. If Satan were the author it would have resulted in failure.

Please watch the video in Post #121, it proves the Book of Moron is a made up work of Fiction.

Dan_473 · Aug 19, 2014

VCO said:

The Bible was perfect, in it's original manuscripts, because it was completely inspired by GOD the Holy Trinity Himself.
Any time we think we found a Contradiction, we can be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that we lack understanding about what was really being said or are lacking the clarification of additional related verses, AND/OR we have misinterpreted either one or both verses. GOD does not contradict HIMSELF.

Deuteronomy 32:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For I will proclaim Yahweh’s name. Declare the greatness of our God!
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The Rock—His work is perfect; all His ways are entirely just. A faithful God, without prejudice, He is righteous and true.

Sounds good! I think our human knowledge of those manuscript is imperfect...

Dan_473 · Aug 19, 2014

daniel606 said:

Well, here's how it is. The Book of Mormon, as a book is an incredible piece of literature. In fact it is so good, that it either came from God, or it came from Satan. A completely inexperienced Joseph Smith or any famous doctor of religion or of literature or of ancient civilizations could not have written that book in 1830 about that people. So again it had to come from God or Satan.

If you read or have read the book, you will find that the only theme throughout is God and Jesus Christ and how They interacted with the people in the BOM. Remember, the people of the BOM were of the house of Joseph of the house of Israel, so God was as interested in them as he was in the other people of the house of Israel in the Jerusalem area. The BOM started in Jerusalem around 600 BC.

So if God and Jesus Christ are the center-piece of the BOM and they are worshipped and glorified as the Creator of the earth and universe, and bring salvation to all mankind, then it seems possible that this kind of positive information about God came from God. If Satan had done it, it would be darker and twisted in a way that would not reflect the glory of God.

The BOM people that lived before Christ, looked forward to his birth, and were given signs of that birth. When Jesus was crusified and put to death, this side of the globe was racked with darkness and earthquakes and fire. After this destruction, and after Jesus had been resurrected and gone to the Father in heaven, he returned to the earth to the American continent to these people of the house of Israel and showed them the marks in his hands and feet and side and they fell down and worshipped, finally seeing the Christ that they had so long waited for. He taught them His gospel for many days. It is a wonderful, true story. That is why the leaders of the white europeans were mistaken (if only for a moment) as being this great god that had come to their ancestors 1500 years earlier.

If God is the author, it would roll forth even though Satan would rage and resist every effort to have it translated, printed and distributed, which he did. If God is the author it would eventually go to all nations of the earth, just like the Bible as another witness that He is real and that He is in charge of the salvation of men and what happens on the earth. He is the Creator and we must believe in Him and worship Him only. If Satan were the author it would have resulted in failure.

Well, as literature, there's some things I find not so good in the writing style... He uses And it came to pass far too often... My opinion there... Sounds like you and I don't see Satan's abilities and what he could do here on earth in the same way... I think Satan could write an enlightening book... And one that sounds great....

Dan_473 · Aug 19, 2014

VCO said:

There were Apostolic GIFTS (the ability to work Miracles, signs, and wonders) were given to the Apostles to validate that they spoke from GOD.

The problem with claiming to have the Apostolic Gifts today, is one was ONLY qualified to be an Apostle if he actually saw the risen LORD. And the problem with imitating the Apostolic Gifts today, is they FALL WAY SHORT of what the Apostles actually did, and thus are counterfeits.

And there are several spiritual gifts, HE intended for believers in the CHURCH. GOD assigns them, but you can and will discover which gifts HE gave us. For example, I was not gifted to teach Jr. High teenagers, they were bored them to tears whole time that I tried to teach Jr. High Sunday School, at two different Churches. But I was very gifted to teach inmates, and the messages just flowed from me, and the messages held the interest of the inmates for the 45 minutes to an hour sermons.

I absolutely believe GOD HEALS MIRACULOUSLY IN ANSWER TO PRAYER, and I have seen it a number of times. HOWEVER, I do not believe he gives the POWER to heal at will to individuals, because that was an Apostolic Gift. HOWEVER I do believe GOD gives a gift of praying for healings (sometimes called a Prayer Warrior), and his or her prayers are frequently answered.

Sounds good... What's your take on discerning of spirits?

Dan_473 · Aug 19, 2014

VCO said:

Is moron a typo? I hope so... I exhort us all to walk in love as Christ has loved us...

VCO · Aug 19, 2014

Dan_473 said:

I believe that any Translation Team, that is made up of ONLY genuine born again Translators, who geniunely BELIEVES in praying to be FILLED with the Spirit that day, as they Translate; will receive that help from the Holy Spirit to translate accurately. So NO, I do not believe the KJV is the only English Translation that GOD recognizes as Valid. The WORD OF GOD is what the verse MEANS by what it says, and not which Translation is printed on the page. YES, I believe there are several English Translations out there that where Translated by Spirit Filled Translators and have thus captured the meaning of the verses accurately, THUS THEY ARE TRULY THE WORD OF GOD.

Are there bad translations out there? Certainly, and the New World Translation is so bad that I would have to call it a perversion and not a translation at all. When there is a choice to make, because the original manuscript (oldest we have found) has a word with multiple meanings, have they occasionally made less than the best choice? Now that would be opening it up to a matter of personal preference, and what speaks to the heart of the individual. That is why, when a Christian matures, he should do word studies for himself; NOT TO ARRIVE AT A DIFFERENT MEANING BUT A DEEPER ONE.

I will give you an example:

The GREEK word chelepos in the KJV is translated perilous.

2 Timothy 3:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 Timothy 3:1 (ASV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But know this, that in the last days grievous times shall come.

2 Timothy 3:1 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.

2 Timothy 3:1 (NRSV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]You must understand this, that in the last days distressing times will come.

2 Timothy 3:1 (NIV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.

Now NONE of those are an incorrect translation, because that Greek word chelepos can be translated to every one of those words, plus two more: violent and vicious.

2 Timothy 3:1 (GW)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] You must understand this: In the last days there will be violent periods of time.

So when we do the word study for chelepos, we don't gain a different understanding, but rather a DEEPER understanding of what GOD was referring to. And in the here and now, when we watch the nightly News on TV, we know God's Word is TRUE, vicious times have come.

So which translations do I personally use? Just like it the above example, when I study God's Word, I find it helpful to look at several Translations, knowing it is what the verse means by what it says that is actually the Word of GOD, not a specific Translation. I have WORDsearch 10 as my primary Bible Software Library. When I open the program, I have it set to automatically pull up 10 Translations. In the order of my personal preference, here are those ten Translations that I use:
NKJV, HCSB, NASB, ESV, KJV, ASV, NRSV, NIV, YLT, & GW.

VCO · Aug 19, 2014

Dan_473 said:

Yes it is a typo, and it is the reason I have asked Admin several times to give us more time to correct typos. That 5 minutes is WAY TOO LITTLE TIME, and this is a perfect example why. Sorry!

skipp · Aug 19, 2014

daniel606 said:

The Book of Mormon is terrible literature. It's a third rate KJV inspired knock-off, exactly what you would expect someone like Joseph Smith to have written.

VCO · Aug 19, 2014

Dan_473 said:

That could be, but I have to remind myself, that thee HOLY GOD who gave it pure and true through the minds of sinful men in the first place, is ALSO POWERFUL ENOUGH to keep it pure and true through the minds of Translators.

daniel606 · Aug 19, 2014

Did you read johnluke's post #63? Please respond to that post if you would. Thank you

VCO · Aug 19, 2014

Dan_473 said:

Is there a gift for discerning spirits?

YES, but for EVERY person with a discerning spirit; there is a multitude of deceiving spirits in the world.

Every person who has genuinely been BORN AGAIN, has the Holy Spirit in him or her, WHO IS THE ULTIMATE DISCERNER of TRUTH. That Holy Spirit not only pours Love for God into our hearts, but HE brings our once dead to the will of GOD human spirit to ETERNAL LIFE, right then and there, the moment we first believe. That new BORN AGAIN human spirit, thinks with a spirit mind, that is not the fleshly mind, and it is hungry for the WORD. As we feed it the WORD of GOD, it grows stronger, maturing spiritually. The spiritually mature human spirit eventually can discern true from false, and understands the spiritual truths in the BIBLE. I do not expect you to understand a bit of that, in fact I suspect you will find it all foolishness, even though it is all Biblical Truth.

1 Corinthians 2:10 (NKJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

1 Corinthians 2:12-16 (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But the natural man {any man or woman not yet Born Again} does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

VCO · Aug 19, 2014

daniel606 said:

NO, Prov. 30:6 does not mean anything written after that verse. It means anything added to words inspired by GOD, and then called erroneously the Word of GOD.

INSPIRED BY GOD:

Deuteronomy 6:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] “Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One.

John 1:1 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 (HCSB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We observed His glory, the glory as the One and Only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 4:24 (HCSB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Matthew 1:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Isaiah 43:10-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.

John 10:30 (HCSB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] The Father and I are one.”

John 14:9 (NIV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Acts 5:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the proceeds from the field?
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Wasn’t it yours while you possessed it? And after it was sold, wasn’t it at your disposal? Why is it that you planned this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God!”

PROVEN LIES:

The Mormon GODHEAD:

LDS: Teach that Father God is a resurrected man with a physical body. He has a Father-God above Him. Christ is a separate resurrected man with a physical body; Holy Ghost is a separate man with a spiritual body. These three are totally separate Gods.
(D&C 130:22; Teachings, pp. 345-346, pp. 370-373; Doctrines of Salvation,v.1, p. 10-12)

The Mormon JESUS CHRIST:

Gospel Principles, p. 11, 17, 18
Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ...so he is literally our elder brother.... We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, "Whom shall I send?" ... Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said "Here am I, send me".... Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, "Behold, here am I, send me." ... After hearing both sons speak, Heavenly Father said, "I will send the first." ... Because our Heavenly Father chose Jesus Christ to be our Savior, Satan became angry and rebelled.

Please watch the video in Post #121. It proves Archaeologically and Biblically that the Book of Mormon is a total work of Fiction.

Flamingspirit · Aug 19, 2014

Will Mormons burn in the lake simply for being Mormons? I'd rather people simply say that they will burn in hell then to hide their hate for them behind verses.

As much as Paul knew, he only knew in part! So knowledge is not what is to be judged. Christ will forgive a man for whatever he thinks Him to be. Why can't you all do the same?

VCO · Aug 19, 2014

Flamingspirit said:

I am not afraid to tell you the truth.

ANYONE who has not out of LOVE for GOD received the Jesus Christ of the BIBLE, as LORD, which means Master; will be guilty of Blaspheming the work of the Holy Spirit, who is trying to get you to BELIEVE. Scripture tells us that those who do not KNOW Him intimately as LORD, are those who do not have their names written in the Book of Life. Yes, they will therefore spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. The Jesus Christ of the Bible is not separate from the Father, nor a Second Deity. HE and the Father are ONE Deity, the only Deity that has ever existed. There are multitude of fake gods, and fake Christs (Mat. 24:24). But failure to receive Him as part of the ONE and ONLY DEITY, is unbelief.

The Mormon Jesus Christ is purely a false Jesus Christ made up in the mind of Joseph Smith.

But do not feel like I am picking on you, there are a lot of false Christs in this world.

The Jehovah Witness Jesus Christ is a false Christ.

The Christian Science Jesus Christ is a false Christ.

The traditional Jesus Christ of the Church of Christ, is a false Christ.

The Jesus Christ taught by Unity is a false Christ.

The Jesus Christ taught by Baha'is is a false Christ.

The Jesus Christ taught by New Age is a false Christ.

I am sorry but any Jesus Christ that is different than the one in the BIBLE is a false Jesus Christ, and believing in a false Jesus Christ, cannot SAVE YOU from the eternal fires of Hell.

Please COME to the real Jesus Christ of the BIBLE. No amount of works can SAVE YOU, but HE can.
Yes we do works to show our LOVE for HIM, but never do they earn any part of our Salvation.
We are saved purely by Grace, which means Salvation cannot be earned.
And it teaches that His Grace is sufficient to SAVE US.

COME! I invite you to receive HIM as LORD!
His Holy Spirit will convict you of sinfulness,
But HE the Holy Spirit will also Pour the Love of GOD into your hearts.

COME! The hour is late.

Flamingspirit · Aug 19, 2014

VCO said:

You yourself do not follow the Jesus of the bible. He said He came to save all! Even the Mormon.
You are not acting out of love, but your own work. I know you will not listen, but if you are correct and have the true Christ living in you, then why do you die? What is your sin? Death is defeated by Christ correct?

The difference between me and you is that if I die, I go the way of the prophets before me. Because my message is that death is beaten and that we have the power to end all evil in love and forgiveness. You look the same as a Mormon in the grave. There is no Mormon in either death or love!

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