Mormons / Latter Day Saints
- Thread starter RickyZ
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Well now that is an option but I don't think that's the issue here. When you've been here a while you'll find there's a lot of people here with an inflated sense of self... like they're the only ones with any sort of enlightenment or learning, or if you don't believe what they believe you're an unsaved heretic. Or just a nonsense generalization like 'there's no other church like mine'. Really, so you've invested time in ALL the other churches and there's not a single one of them that meets up to your standards? I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but when I see people making blanket exclusions like this I tend to think their world needs to expand a little bit. Or maybe their sense of self needs to deflate a bit. But I do know that when people think they've got an exclusive lock on things, they've closed themselves off to the greater truth.
As much as we may think we know, today is not the day to stop learning. And when you think that 'mine' is the only one, you've closed the door to learning. So that's when I close the door to listening.
As much as we may think we know, today is not the day to stop learning. And when you think that 'mine' is the only one, you've closed the door to learning. So that's when I close the door to listening.
It may not mean, but then again it just may mean. How do you know this spirit is not a spirit child of God yet to be born in the flesh. Whether he is a good or bad spirit really isn't the point, the point is he was a spirit and he was only one of the host of spirits that were surrounding the throne of God. This scripture supports my view that there were spirits surrounding the Throne of God, and one of them came forward and was sent on a task by God.
You might be right, but Job 38:3-7 is happening before or during the creation of the earth. Genesis 6:1-4 is happening after the earth was created and very near the flood over a 1,000 years into the earth history. My point is that there were living beings before the earth was created and this scripture confirms that I am right, regardless whether or not these were the same sons of God that eventually came to earth and did evil later on as Genesis 6:1-4 depicts. This scripture supports my view that there was living beings (spirit beings) before the earth was created.
Have you found any other scriptures that would support "spirit children"?
You might be right, but Job 38:3-7 is happening before or during the creation of the earth. Genesis 6:1-4 is happening after the earth was created and very near the flood over a 1,000 years into the earth history. My point is that there were living beings before the earth was created and this scripture confirms that I am right, regardless whether or not these were the same sons of God that eventually came to earth and did evil later on as Genesis 6:1-4 depicts. This scripture supports my view that there was living beings (spirit beings) before the earth was created.
Have you found any other scriptures that would support "spirit children"?
You are right, and God told Job that the sons of God shouted for joy as the earth was being created. Why do you think the sons of God shouted for joy? It is because they were witnessing as spirit children of God, the creation of the earth and they knew that one day it would be their time to come to the earth and that their spirit would unite with a procreated body of flesh and bone and they would have the opportunity to experience earth life. Why we come and experience earth life is another very important topic for later.
The bible makes it very clear that there were many others that existed with Jesus in the pre-existence. One of those spirit children was Lucifer. Lucifer means "light bearer", which scholars say has to do with his being very powerful and influential, and very close to God in the pre-existence. Isaiah calls him "son of the morning", which refers to his spirit as being one of the first to be brought forth by God. Isaiah was so shocked that Lucifer had fallen and was cast out of heaven that he wrote these words
Isaiah 14:12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning?...
We also know that Jesus saw Lucifer being cast out of heaven when he said: (Luke 10:18) ...I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. So when did Jesus behold this fall? It was during the pre-existence. And when Satan fell he took a great many of his angels with him (spirit children of God) to earth (Revelations 12:9). How many angels were cast out with him,
he took 1/3 of the stars of heaven (Revelations 12:4). Stars of heaven is another name for his angels, another name for spirit children of God. That's a lot more living spirit beings present in the pre-existence than just 1 says the bible! There was a whole host of spirit beings, billions of angels that surrounded God on his throne.
The unseen world of the spirit is real and you were once a part of it and will return to it when you leave this earth life and your spirit leaves your body. Go to biblegateway.com and use key word "gave up the ghost" and you will see what I mean.
The bible makes it very clear that there were many others that existed with Jesus in the pre-existence. One of those spirit children was Lucifer. Lucifer means "light bearer", which scholars say has to do with his being very powerful and influential, and very close to God in the pre-existence. Isaiah calls him "son of the morning", which refers to his spirit as being one of the first to be brought forth by God. Isaiah was so shocked that Lucifer had fallen and was cast out of heaven that he wrote these words
Isaiah 14:12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning?...We also know that Jesus saw Lucifer being cast out of heaven when he said: (Luke 10:18) ...I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. So when did Jesus behold this fall? It was during the pre-existence. And when Satan fell he took a great many of his angels with him (spirit children of God) to earth (Revelations 12:9). How many angels were cast out with him,
he took 1/3 of the stars of heaven (Revelations 12:4). Stars of heaven is another name for his angels, another name for spirit children of God. That's a lot more living spirit beings present in the pre-existence than just 1 says the bible! There was a whole host of spirit beings, billions of angels that surrounded God on his throne.
The unseen world of the spirit is real and you were once a part of it and will return to it when you leave this earth life and your spirit leaves your body. Go to biblegateway.com and use key word "gave up the ghost" and you will see what I mean.
Daniel 606
I made it very clear that the "sons of God are angles that were created by God. They were created to uphold creation, and to administer God's righteous judgment. The fallen "sons of God" corrupt the world. Before Noah's time they had sex with women giving birth to giants. The offspring are called nephilm in the original text, and they are not the seed God created after its own kind. The fallen "sons of God" messed the ecological system up so bad that God had to destroy the earth. As we all know, there are no records that giants where on the ark." God destroyed their offspring's. Two other things I would like to mention, or ask. In your religion does God have a wife, and who raised Jesus from the dead?
I made it very clear that the "sons of God are angles that were created by God. They were created to uphold creation, and to administer God's righteous judgment. The fallen "sons of God" corrupt the world. Before Noah's time they had sex with women giving birth to giants. The offspring are called nephilm in the original text, and they are not the seed God created after its own kind. The fallen "sons of God" messed the ecological system up so bad that God had to destroy the earth. As we all know, there are no records that giants where on the ark." God destroyed their offspring's. Two other things I would like to mention, or ask. In your religion does God have a wife, and who raised Jesus from the dead?
Last edited:
Ok, I believe you, God created the angels called the "sons of god". They were and are spirit beings created by God. That's what this discussion is all about. So I agree with you that God created spirit beings and called them angels. As far as anyone is concerned angels could also be called "spirit children of God". Especially since at least some of them are called
"the sons of God" (are sons not children?). There are several scriptures that tell us that we are the offspring of God (Acts 17:28-29), and that we are the children of God (Romans 8:16). In fact Romans 8:16 actually says: The Spirit (meaning the Holy Spirit) beareth witness to our spirit that we are the children of God. If the Holy Spirit beareth record to Paul, that we are the children of God, we better be listening to what Paul and the Holy Spirit are teaching us. Being an offspring or a child of God in a literal sense has to have been in a pre-existent state and we would be spirit offspring or children. We know this because there is only one that is the only begotten son of God in the flesh and that is Jesus Christ.
As far as does God have a wife and who raised Jesus from the dead, I would like to reserve that discussion for later until we have finished our discussion about the pre-existence. I am not trying to steer away from the wife issue, I just would like to finish one discussion before we launch another one. When we are done, I will bring it up, so you won't have to remember.
You didn't answer my question about many spirits in heaven before the world was created vs one only and that was Jesus.
You must agree that many spirits were there, not just Jesus. One that we know of surely is Satan and we know that he had millions if not billions of followers (angels)(other spirit beings)(other spirit children of God). Let me know what you think of this.
"the sons of God" (are sons not children?). There are several scriptures that tell us that we are the offspring of God (Acts 17:28-29), and that we are the children of God (Romans 8:16). In fact Romans 8:16 actually says: The Spirit (meaning the Holy Spirit) beareth witness to our spirit that we are the children of God. If the Holy Spirit beareth record to Paul, that we are the children of God, we better be listening to what Paul and the Holy Spirit are teaching us. Being an offspring or a child of God in a literal sense has to have been in a pre-existent state and we would be spirit offspring or children. We know this because there is only one that is the only begotten son of God in the flesh and that is Jesus Christ.
As far as does God have a wife and who raised Jesus from the dead, I would like to reserve that discussion for later until we have finished our discussion about the pre-existence. I am not trying to steer away from the wife issue, I just would like to finish one discussion before we launch another one. When we are done, I will bring it up, so you won't have to remember.
You didn't answer my question about many spirits in heaven before the world was created vs one only and that was Jesus.
You must agree that many spirits were there, not just Jesus. One that we know of surely is Satan and we know that he had millions if not billions of followers (angels)(other spirit beings)(other spirit children of God). Let me know what you think of this.
Last edited:
The above and the last quote in this post I agree. *See bottom quote
I think that post was in response to this
(I'm trying to make this short by not quoting all of what we previously posted for the sake of the reader.) Then you wrote....
Then I finished with 1 Kings 22-23 and answered the question. ** With this
So I think I answered your question. Sorry you didn't get it. More explicitly, the scripture you presented didn't really say what you were advocating when adding verses 22 and 23.
I would say it " One that we know of surely "was" Satan instead of "is". other than that, I agree. See beginning of this post *
The following is from your last post. I did it this way fro you to better understand that I thought I had already answered your question.
It is very illogical to me that God would created us perfect, and then send us to earth to test our faith, and if we fail, send us away from Him forever. I cannot see the love in that. The following clearly identifies the order of events in God's creation. The highlighted red colored sentence in the following scripture can be read as a question, or a statement. Readers choice.
You must have meant this I think as I read the following Post #424. But I will answer with these scriptures." ***And so it is written , The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven." (1 Corinthians 15:45-47) "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (***Genesis 2:7) Concerning Jesus "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Colossians 1:17) Spirit Children were not created before they were born. There is my answer to the question you posed.
Then I finished with 1 Kings 22-23 and answered the question. ** With this
So I think I answered your question. Sorry you didn't get it. More explicitly, the scripture you presented didn't really say what you were advocating when adding verses 22 and 23.
I would say it " One that we know of surely "was" Satan instead of "is". other than that, I agree. See beginning of this post *
The following is from your last post. I did it this way fro you to better understand that I thought I had already answered your question.
It is very illogical to me that God would created us perfect, and then send us to earth to test our faith, and if we fail, send us away from Him forever. I cannot see the love in that. The following clearly identifies the order of events in God's creation. The highlighted red colored sentence in the following scripture can be read as a question, or a statement. Readers choice.
You must have meant this I think as I read the following Post #424. But I will answer with these scriptures." ***And so it is written , The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven." (1 Corinthians 15:45-47) "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (***Genesis 2:7) Concerning Jesus "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Colossians 1:17) Spirit Children were not created before they were born. There is my answer to the question you posed.
Last edited:
I think the job passage has a lot of poetic license, seen in the next section where God says the sea has fixed boundaries... how far the sea comes has changed over time... I don't know if this has been talked about yet, but if job is there as one of the sons of God, the section loses a lot of thrust... I think God is implying job wasn't there...
I'm not sure of poetic license, all I know is that God is asking Job if he knew where he was when the earth was created and who did the creating. Where was Job when the morning starts sang together and the sons of God shouted for joy?
It does not necessarily answer the question for Job, but this is not the issue, the issue is that God asked questions about his creation process and in that discussion mentions an interesting thing, that while he was creating the morning stars sang together and the sons of God shouted for joy. In other words there were spirit beings with Him as He created the natural earth. They were happy for its creation and shouted for joy.
Because Job is an important man to God and has his own book in the OT, I would not doubt that he was one of the sons of God mentioned in those verses. vs 4 God asks, "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou has understanding. What an interesting question, because to me it is evident that he existed and was there, and God wanted to know if Job knew that. I do not believe the question would have been asked if Job had not existed at that time. God was giving him an insight that not many get from the creator. That there were living spirit beings existing when he created the earth and that Job was one of them, and Job too shouted for joy to see the earth being made.
Certainly the seas change over time, but not enough to discount this scripture, besides this is not really important regarding our discussion of the pre-existence. What is important is that there were sons of God present when God was creating. I believe Job was one of them and I don't see how the scripture loses thrust if Job was there.
It does not necessarily answer the question for Job, but this is not the issue, the issue is that God asked questions about his creation process and in that discussion mentions an interesting thing, that while he was creating the morning stars sang together and the sons of God shouted for joy. In other words there were spirit beings with Him as He created the natural earth. They were happy for its creation and shouted for joy.
Because Job is an important man to God and has his own book in the OT, I would not doubt that he was one of the sons of God mentioned in those verses. vs 4 God asks, "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou has understanding. What an interesting question, because to me it is evident that he existed and was there, and God wanted to know if Job knew that. I do not believe the question would have been asked if Job had not existed at that time. God was giving him an insight that not many get from the creator. That there were living spirit beings existing when he created the earth and that Job was one of them, and Job too shouted for joy to see the earth being made.
Certainly the seas change over time, but not enough to discount this scripture, besides this is not really important regarding our discussion of the pre-existence. What is important is that there were sons of God present when God was creating. I believe Job was one of them and I don't see how the scripture loses thrust if Job was there.
Last edited:
You and I have been involved in 2 existences. 1) the pre-existence when you and I were in spirit form and 2) this earth life were you and I are in the form of flesh and bone and sprit. You cannot claim to be a literal offspring of God in this earth life. There is only 1 person that can claim that honor, and that is Jesus Christ. He is the only begotten son of God the Father in the flesh.
If we are the offspring of God the Father (and the scriptures tell us this is true -see Acts 17:28-29) it had to be in the 1st existence, the pre-existence. There God created us spiritually, we are literally his offspring in the spirit and we lived with Him there and was taught by Him and Jesus Christ. We were even promised in this pre-existent state that we would have eternal life after our earth life. (Titus 1:2). In fact the Holy Spirit tells us that this whole idea is really the truth. (Romans 8:16)
So I hope you get what I am saying, any other questions feel free to post it. Thanks
If we are the offspring of God the Father (and the scriptures tell us this is true -see Acts 17:28-29) it had to be in the 1st existence, the pre-existence. There God created us spiritually, we are literally his offspring in the spirit and we lived with Him there and was taught by Him and Jesus Christ. We were even promised in this pre-existent state that we would have eternal life after our earth life. (Titus 1:2). In fact the Holy Spirit tells us that this whole idea is really the truth. (Romans 8:16)
So I hope you get what I am saying, any other questions feel free to post it. Thanks
Most people don't get it like you do. There are lots of crazy ideas running around why there are 2 creation stories. The idea that God created all things spiritually in chapter 1 and then created them naturally in chapter 2 makes all the sense in the world. But again, most people have no clue what Genesis 2:5 is trying to tell them. Most people don't even know about Genesis 2:5. So you are way ahead of the curve and good going.
Are you saying God created Spiritual seeds before day three of creation?
When it says generations it is recapping creation. By the way my wife does genealogy for our Mormans in Salt lake City
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created , in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew : for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
When it says generations it is recapping creation. By the way my wife does genealogy for our Mormans in Salt lake City
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created , in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew : for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
Last edited:
Misspelled Mormons. sorry.
We make it a habit of bringing people alive with stories that we know, and Glorify God and our ancestors faith ( and dirty stuff too) so we can abide by Job 8:8. Just sayin' Thought ya'll would like to know that we DO NOT give ourselves to endless genealogy trying to connect ourselves with popular people in history.
We make it a habit of bringing people alive with stories that we know, and Glorify God and our ancestors faith ( and dirty stuff too) so we can abide by Job 8:8. Just sayin' Thought ya'll would like to know that we DO NOT give ourselves to endless genealogy trying to connect ourselves with popular people in history.
Last edited:
I don't know about before day three, but on day three Genesis 1:12 is saying that God created grass and herbs and trees that had seeds within themselves, in other words they were put in automatic to reproduce and continue to fill the earth after their own kind. So yes, all things created in chapter 1 are spiritually created by Elohim. Then Genesis 2:5 tells us about that, and then in chapter 2 Yahweh starts the natural creation. To me it fits like a glove and I have studied many scholarly theories about why there are 2 creation stories.
I agree with that.
I am impressed, although there are thousands of people that are caught up in the work of genealogy that are not Mormons, its nice to know your wife is one of them. You say she does genealogy for the Mormons in SLC. What exactly does she do, that is very interesting. I would think she might be doing genealogy for your family, but for the Mormons in SLC that is unusual. So feel me in on what she is doing. Thanks
By the way, I answered your post 428, but it took me so long that when I "posted quick reply" it didn't let me do it, so I am going to have to start all over and you will see it later.
I do enjoy our discussion and thanks for your response.
I agree with that.
I am impressed, although there are thousands of people that are caught up in the work of genealogy that are not Mormons, its nice to know your wife is one of them. You say she does genealogy for the Mormons in SLC. What exactly does she do, that is very interesting. I would think she might be doing genealogy for your family, but for the Mormons in SLC that is unusual. So feel me in on what she is doing. Thanks
By the way, I answered your post 428, but it took me so long that when I "posted quick reply" it didn't let me do it, so I am going to have to start all over and you will see it later.
I do enjoy our discussion and thanks for your response.
i think I see what you're saying, now... I see it as God saying job wasn't there, but it is possible God is saying you were there and thought all this was a good idea at the time... the issue I see with the you were there idea is that job doesn't remember being there, so it doesn't seem like it would help him much... if God is saying you weren't there, and I'm a lot older and more powerful than you, that could be helpful, I think... but, big picture, i agree that the passage says that there were sons of God present when God was laying the foundations of the earth...
Yes you are seeing the big picture. There were spirit beings (spirit children of God) present with God the Father and Jesus and saw Jesus creating the natural earth. Your spirit and my spirit and I suspect Job's spirit was there also.
I will tell you more. You were a valiant spirit and kept your first estate (which is the pre-existence). There were other spirits who did not (Jude 1:6) and were cast out of heaven with Lucifer (Revelations 12). Because you were valiant and followed the Savior and fought against Lucifer and the spirits that followed him (which was 1/3 of the spirits in the pre-existence), you were promised by God before the world was made, that you would have eternal life after this life (Titus 1:2).
This war in heaven really took place and Lucifer was one of the great spirit children of God in the pre-existence. You were not taken in by his lies and his exceptional charismatic personality. You chose Jesus and you will be blessed forever for your choice. Read Revelations chapter 12 now and see if it reads different than ever before because you now have a little knowledge about the pre-existence.
Knowing that you knew God and Jesus and that you were valiant in our first estate, and were promised eternal life, must give you more strength to be valiant for Jesus in this second estate (earth life). It all fits together nicely and the gospel moves forward.
I will tell you more. You were a valiant spirit and kept your first estate (which is the pre-existence). There were other spirits who did not (Jude 1:6) and were cast out of heaven with Lucifer (Revelations 12). Because you were valiant and followed the Savior and fought against Lucifer and the spirits that followed him (which was 1/3 of the spirits in the pre-existence), you were promised by God before the world was made, that you would have eternal life after this life (Titus 1:2).
This war in heaven really took place and Lucifer was one of the great spirit children of God in the pre-existence. You were not taken in by his lies and his exceptional charismatic personality. You chose Jesus and you will be blessed forever for your choice. Read Revelations chapter 12 now and see if it reads different than ever before because you now have a little knowledge about the pre-existence.
Knowing that you knew God and Jesus and that you were valiant in our first estate, and were promised eternal life, must give you more strength to be valiant for Jesus in this second estate (earth life). It all fits together nicely and the gospel moves forward.
Last edited:
You may have misunderstood. I wanted to point out that the term “generations” in verse 4 is recapping and explaining in more detail Genesis Chapter 1. They are not 2 separate instances. It is like genealogy to some extent in that if one is to do it right according to Job 8:8 we need to recap (tell again) the history of that era. Then we can know why our ancestors acted the way they did, and in most cases understanding why they migrated, etc. So Genesis chapter 2 is a summary of chapter 1 in more descriptive detail. Verse 4 is even more descriptive of this fact in past tense............. “when they were created”
Genesis 2:2-5
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made ; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made .
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made .
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created , in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew : for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. We just finished with details about our Scottish immigrant Mac Bean in 1652 during Cromwell's time and the English civil war. I wrote a story of his life from the time he was sent to Boston as a POW and became an indentured servant, and afterwards prospered greatly in the faith. The story is centered around His faith in God and how he overcame the war, his wife and more than on of his children's death. Faith gave him hope for the future. I suppose one could call it fiction based on fact. We sent the story to our Mormon relatives in Salt Lake City, and they are wanting to make a play for our next family reunion next August. They are very talented. Our Family is about 175 people in and around there.
Sorry I made post 428 so long.
Genesis 2:2-5
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made ; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made .
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made .
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created , in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew : for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. We just finished with details about our Scottish immigrant Mac Bean in 1652 during Cromwell's time and the English civil war. I wrote a story of his life from the time he was sent to Boston as a POW and became an indentured servant, and afterwards prospered greatly in the faith. The story is centered around His faith in God and how he overcame the war, his wife and more than on of his children's death. Faith gave him hope for the future. I suppose one could call it fiction based on fact. We sent the story to our Mormon relatives in Salt Lake City, and they are wanting to make a play for our next family reunion next August. They are very talented. Our Family is about 175 people in and around there.
Sorry I made post 428 so long.
Last edited: