Mormons / Latter Day Saints
- Thread starter RickyZ
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
see previous post # 445 above. With that said I like Mormons very much. Most are raised better than the average munchkin. LOL They esteem the Law God gave to Moses and that makes a very big difference unlike most evangelical religions these days.
what you mean by direct descendent? so, in acts 17, I think the Greek poet and then Paul himself are saying we are children of God based on two things... he made from one man every person... and in him we live and move and exist... so, in passage, I think those are the two reasons Paul says we are children of God... maybe the poet knows about the one man thing too... not sure...
Most evangelical religions deny the law God gave to Moses therefore not living the precepts of love that are defined therein. Because they (LDS) practice it and teach it to their children (even though I do not adhere to their beliefs) I can truthfully say that in my experience in visiting with them, they are some of the kindest and most considerate people that I have ever conversed with. You can see this in daniel606. At least I hope you can. Most evangelicals that contribute on CC are confrontational unlike what you see in Daniel. I do hope you can see that in him.
Read my post #452 and you will have a better understanding of our position.
You see most evangelicals think because Mormons esteem "good works" as an important part of our religion, then we must be following the Law of Moses, and not the gospel of Christ. It is not true, we follow the Law of Christ (who by the way did not use the word "grace" one time in any of his sayings.)
The term "good works" is a bad term to evangelicals, they avoid it like the plague. To them it is by "grace" that one is saved, not of works lest we boast. But they do believe that once you are saved you will go about to "produce fruit" for the Kingdom of God. The term "produce fruit" is ok to them, but I kind of think it is just a substitute for "good works". If one is not "producing fruit", then according to the evangelicals, they really didn't have the born-again experience and they were never really saved. So it gets kind of messy.
Mormons too believe that "grace" is the centerpiece of their religion. The sacrifice of Jesus was for the remission of our sins, if not for the "grace" of Jesus we would be lost to Satan. We try to do good works because we know that is what Jesus wants us to do, not because we are saved by good works. There is no amount of good works that can save you in the Kingdom of God. It is by "grace" that we are finally saved, after all that you can do. That is the true formula.
You see most evangelicals think because Mormons esteem "good works" as an important part of our religion, then we must be following the Law of Moses, and not the gospel of Christ. It is not true, we follow the Law of Christ (who by the way did not use the word "grace" one time in any of his sayings.)
The term "good works" is a bad term to evangelicals, they avoid it like the plague. To them it is by "grace" that one is saved, not of works lest we boast. But they do believe that once you are saved you will go about to "produce fruit" for the Kingdom of God. The term "produce fruit" is ok to them, but I kind of think it is just a substitute for "good works". If one is not "producing fruit", then according to the evangelicals, they really didn't have the born-again experience and they were never really saved. So it gets kind of messy.
Mormons too believe that "grace" is the centerpiece of their religion. The sacrifice of Jesus was for the remission of our sins, if not for the "grace" of Jesus we would be lost to Satan. We try to do good works because we know that is what Jesus wants us to do, not because we are saved by good works. There is no amount of good works that can save you in the Kingdom of God. It is by "grace" that we are finally saved, after all that you can do. That is the true formula.
Last edited:
I agree with that. A verse (2 actually LOL ok more than that) came to mind when I was reading what you said.
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid : yea, we establish the law.
John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
And now my favorite because it pertains directly to my life before I was saved by Christ's salvation from an eternal death.
Romans 5:1-5
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand , and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed ; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid : yea, we establish the law.
John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
And now my favorite because it pertains directly to my life before I was saved by Christ's salvation from an eternal death.
Romans 5:1-5
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand , and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed ; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
OK "spirit children" may still be a challenge for you, but did you agree that there were "spirit beings" in heaven when God created the earth? Call them angels, or spirits, or the sons of God, there were more beings present before and as the world was created besides just Jesus, he was there for sure. Let me know.
K
We were not in heaven before we were born in the flesh.
The bible makes it clear the only ones that left the abode of heaven, was the fallen angels. And the Lord our God when He came in the flesh.
The scriptures make it clear that God formed us in the womb, spirit and flesh.
He did to us like He did to Adam, the body is formed and He breathes the breath of life in us.
The bible makes it clear the only ones that left the abode of heaven, was the fallen angels. And the Lord our God when He came in the flesh.
The scriptures make it clear that God formed us in the womb, spirit and flesh.
He did to us like He did to Adam, the body is formed and He breathes the breath of life in us.
Please explain how you understand this, and quote from your Bible of it reads different that mine.
"And so it is written , The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual."
(1 Corinthians 15:45-46)
That was the KJV. Now I will quote from the CJB. Complete Jewish Bible
"In fact, the Tanakh says so: Adam, the first man, became a living human being;o but the last "Adam" has become a life-giving Spirit. Note, however, that the body from the Spirit did not come first, but the ordinary human one; the one from the Spirit comes afterwards."
I thought it appropriate to add one more translation to the post being the New International Version.
"So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual."
The Bible say it very plainly so that's what I have to believe.
"And so it is written , The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual."
(1 Corinthians 15:45-46)
That was the KJV. Now I will quote from the CJB. Complete Jewish Bible
"In fact, the Tanakh says so: Adam, the first man, became a living human being;o but the last "Adam" has become a life-giving Spirit. Note, however, that the body from the Spirit did not come first, but the ordinary human one; the one from the Spirit comes afterwards."
I thought it appropriate to add one more translation to the post being the New International Version.
"So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual."
The Bible say it very plainly so that's what I have to believe.
It is, and the scripture uses that relationship to confirm a spiritual truth for our understanding, not only the purpose of Christ and how we fit into this equation, but how the plan of salvation for the human race was established, and how it needed to be fulfilled.
1 Corinthians 15:47-49 relates directly with the understanding that Jesus gave to Nicodemus in John chapter 2 verses 6 thru 13. 1 Corinthians says, “The first man is of the earth, **earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
The point is being made in scripture that there is a new life for the person while on earth through Christ Jesus. If the first were/is spiritual, then the new life would be an earthy one. The point being that the spiritual life in Christ comes second, not first.
Now continuing with John 3:6-13. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth , and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh , and whither it goeth : so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be ? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? *Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know , and testify that we have seen ; and ye receive not our witness. **If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe , if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
Jesus says in verse 11 *Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. (John 3:11)
One can "testify" only what he has "seen", and what he knows.
Then He says in verse 12 **If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? (John3:12)
Christ was qualified to testifyabout "heavenly things" because He has seen it, having come from there!
He said to a group of Jews elsewhere, Him being the Creator of Heaven and earth.
Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. (John 8:23)
There is no one who can teach about Heaven like Christ because He was the only one that has come from Heaven! The prophets, who have seen Heaven, saw it only in visions. And if they had authority to speak about Heaven because of what they had seen, how much more Christ could speak about Heaven and spiritual things having been the only Person that came down from there!
In that context He told Nicodemus to confirm the truth about being born again.
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (John 3:11-13)
"The Son of man which is in Heaven" (John 3:13) simply means Christ belongs to Heaven, He has come from Heaven, and is going to Heaven. That is His place, and as Jesus saw Nathaniel under the tree praying (John 1:48) proves He can be in more that one place at a time.
Nicodemus did not argue with Christ (as he did about being born again,) when Christ told him "No man has ascended to Heaven", because he knew what Christ meant. If we per chance were “spirit children” you could walk up to anyone and ask what heaven was like and they could tell you. Of course if I was once a “spirit child” I would already know. **Heavenly to earthly doesn't mix with being born again. Earthy to heavenly does. That's the plan from before heaven and earth were created.
“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” (John 17:5)
1 Corinthians 15:47-49 relates directly with the understanding that Jesus gave to Nicodemus in John chapter 2 verses 6 thru 13. 1 Corinthians says, “The first man is of the earth, **earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
The point is being made in scripture that there is a new life for the person while on earth through Christ Jesus. If the first were/is spiritual, then the new life would be an earthy one. The point being that the spiritual life in Christ comes second, not first.
Now continuing with John 3:6-13. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth , and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh , and whither it goeth : so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be ? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? *Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know , and testify that we have seen ; and ye receive not our witness. **If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe , if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
Jesus says in verse 11 *Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. (John 3:11)
One can "testify" only what he has "seen", and what he knows.
Then He says in verse 12 **If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? (John3:12)
Christ was qualified to testifyabout "heavenly things" because He has seen it, having come from there!
He said to a group of Jews elsewhere, Him being the Creator of Heaven and earth.
Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. (John 8:23)
There is no one who can teach about Heaven like Christ because He was the only one that has come from Heaven! The prophets, who have seen Heaven, saw it only in visions. And if they had authority to speak about Heaven because of what they had seen, how much more Christ could speak about Heaven and spiritual things having been the only Person that came down from there!
In that context He told Nicodemus to confirm the truth about being born again.
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (John 3:11-13)
"The Son of man which is in Heaven" (John 3:13) simply means Christ belongs to Heaven, He has come from Heaven, and is going to Heaven. That is His place, and as Jesus saw Nathaniel under the tree praying (John 1:48) proves He can be in more that one place at a time.
Nicodemus did not argue with Christ (as he did about being born again,) when Christ told him "No man has ascended to Heaven", because he knew what Christ meant. If we per chance were “spirit children” you could walk up to anyone and ask what heaven was like and they could tell you. Of course if I was once a “spirit child” I would already know. **Heavenly to earthly doesn't mix with being born again. Earthy to heavenly does. That's the plan from before heaven and earth were created.
“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” (John 17:5)
Last edited:
One must also consider the word "never" along with "knew."
And then will I profess unto them , I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:23)
He didn't say 'you are not like you once were when I first knew you, so what I knew of you then is not the same person you are now.'
Never in the Strong's Concordance=3763. oudepote oo-dep'-ot-eh from *3761 and **4218; *not even **at any time, i.e. never at all:--neither at any time, never, nothing at any time.
*not even=3761. oude oo-deh' from 3756 (the absolute negative) and 1161 (moreover); not however, i.e. neither, nor, not even:--neither (indeed), never, no (more, nor, not), nor (yet), (also, even, then) not (even, so much as), + nothing, so much as.
** at any time=4218. pote pot-eh' from the base of 4225 and 5037; indefinite adverb, at some time, ever:--afore-(any, some-)time(-s), at length (the last), (+ n- )ever, in the old time, in time past, once, when.
And then will I profess unto them , I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:23)
He didn't say 'you are not like you once were when I first knew you, so what I knew of you then is not the same person you are now.'
Never in the Strong's Concordance=3763. oudepote oo-dep'-ot-eh from *3761 and **4218; *not even **at any time, i.e. never at all:--neither at any time, never, nothing at any time.
*not even=3761. oude oo-deh' from 3756 (the absolute negative) and 1161 (moreover); not however, i.e. neither, nor, not even:--neither (indeed), never, no (more, nor, not), nor (yet), (also, even, then) not (even, so much as), + nothing, so much as.
** at any time=4218. pote pot-eh' from the base of 4225 and 5037; indefinite adverb, at some time, ever:--afore-(any, some-)time(-s), at length (the last), (+ n- )ever, in the old time, in time past, once, when.
Last edited:
I really am not being rude, but I would like to know how you think that really happened to Adam, because if we can not figure out how God breathed the breath of life into Adam, how will we ever be able to figure out how he breathes the breath of life into the thousands of infants born every day all around the world.
Let me give you an idea about what I mean, and again, I am not trying to be funny, but if God is going to breath into the nostrils of Adam, God would have to have lungs and a throat and a mouth etc., in order for the process to take place.
Have you ever thought of it except to read the scripture? What do you think?
Let me give you an idea about what I mean, and again, I am not trying to be funny, but if God is going to breath into the nostrils of Adam, God would have to have lungs and a throat and a mouth etc., in order for the process to take place.
Have you ever thought of it except to read the scripture? What do you think?
Just to clarify my previous post. God knows what every person will become before they are born. There is only one way to the Father and that is through Jesus Christ. In the scripture mentioned in the previous post, Christ never knowing us is not the same as God knowing what we will be whether lost or found. To be in Christ is the only way to be known by Him. If He knew us in a previous life as a "spirit child" we would have had to be "in Him" then also. I fail to comprehend, as I read God's Word, why we would be a new creature of old things so we can become a new creature of new things. The spirit of man is the motivation and conscious intention beyond instinct. Would that not also be true for "spirit children" of a past life in heaven? That motivation is the purposeful direction that is going to be followed. The question for me remains, why would we have no recollection of that conscious motivation as a "spirit child" in order to be born-again to receive the same spirit?
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away ; behold , all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away ; behold , all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)
In this sort-of parable, Jesus knew them. They pleaded their case to him. We could make a point that they may even have been eye-ball to eye-ball with Jesus as they plead. And then he told them, maybe in person, I never knew you.
Not that he actually never knew them, but at this point he is disowning them as if he never knew them.
This is not an anti-pre-existence scripture.
It is a scripture that is stressing the point that if you are not doing what Jesus tells us to do and how to do it, eventually he will have to disavow even knowing us or having ever known us.
Not that he actually never knew them, but at this point he is disowning them as if he never knew them.
This is not an anti-pre-existence scripture.
It is a scripture that is stressing the point that if you are not doing what Jesus tells us to do and how to do it, eventually he will have to disavow even knowing us or having ever known us.