Music in Church?

[oldhermit]

It also had a temple, altars, burning of incense, circumcision, dietary laws, and yearly festivals. What suddenly changed all of these things? Christ's death on the cross. "But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter" (Romans 7:6)

Yes. The methodology of worship under the Law is not the pattern for worship in the Church. This however does not change the generalized principles that govern both.

 

[SolidGround]

Well, I am not aware of the use of instruments in the Church that early but, even assuming this is correct, why did it take three centuries for the instrument to be accepted if the apostolic charge was to use them in the worship? The word acappella was a mid-evil Latin word that, as I am sure you are aware, means "as in the chapel " or as in the Church." This word was used to identify music that was to be sung without instrumentation "just as in the Church." The example of the attitude of the early Church toward the rejection of instrumental music in the worship stood as the pattern for the use of this word.

Lack of evidence does not mean lack of existence.
The debates began occurring along with many other debates, including infant baptism and the baptism of unbelievers. How did those turn out for the church? Poorly.
I cannot use those men as an authority, as they did not hold to Scripture in many of their decisions, even if some were correct.

 

[oldhermit]

Lack of evidence does not mean lack of existence.
The debates began occurring along with many other debates, including infant baptism and the baptism of unbelievers. How did those turn out for the church? Poorly.
I cannot use those men as an authority, as they did not hold to Scripture in many of their decisions, even if some were correct.

Yes, you are correct. This question was debated at least as early as the middle of the second century but there is no evidence, at least none of which I am aware, that the early Church ever accepted or used the instrument in worship. To the best of my recollection of early Church history this does not show up for maybe 500 years at the earliest. And of course, you are correct also that nether man not human history is the standard. All you have to do is show in scripture where the Church is commanded to use the instruments in worship.

 

[SolidGround]

Yes, you are correct. This question was debated at least as early as the middle of the second century but there is no evidence, at least none of which I am aware, that the early Church ever accepted or used the instrument in worship. To the best of my recollection of early Church history this does not show up for maybe 500 years at the earliest.

If I was to make an assumption on "why", it would be split between:
the empirial wolves in the church trying to quench the fire,
the stoic Believers who saw such joys as carnal,
and the Believers who, like myself, find more edification in unaccompanied vocals. (I am easily distracted).

This is why I will not go so far as to say that instruments are necessary,
but that they were disallowed based on false teachings, and the prohibition unchallenged due to a lack of need.

 

[oldhermit]

If I was to make an assumption on "why", it would be split between:
the empirial wolves in the church trying to quench the fire,
the stoic Believers who saw such joys as carnal,
and the Believers who, like myself, find more edification in unaccompanied vocals. (I am easily distracted).

This is why I will not go so far as to say that instruments are necessary,
but that they were disallowed based on false teachings, and the prohibition unchallenged due to a lack of need.

Well I would disagree but, I certainly do not stand in condemnation to those who choose to use the instrument. That is neither my right nor my place. I do however feel that many may hold me in complete contempt because I refuse to accept the instrument in worship as I can find no NT authorization for it. I can live with that of course because it is a small thing to me that I be judged by others. I have enjoyed our conversation. Perhaps another time.

 

[posthuman]

Well I would disagree but, I certainly do not stand in condemnation to those who choose to use the instrument. That is neither my right nor my place. I do however feel that many may hold me in complete contempt because I refuse to accept the instrument in worship as I can find no NT authorization for it. I can live with that of course because it is a small thing to me that I be judged by others. I have enjoyed our conversation. Perhaps another time.

i hope you don't think i have even the slightest bit of contempt for you!

it's neither my place to force anyone to worship with music, and i respect everyone's choice about it. i think we all agree that if anything is offending our conscious it's sin for us, and we should be worshiping with a pure heart.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Both verses use the Greek word Psallo which means to pull or twitch/twang a stringed instrument, like "baptizo" does not define what one is baptized in but must be defined by context, so too, Psallo does not define the stringed instrument, it must come from the context, Paul said the instrument is the heart.

I have looked up the meaning .

This is what the text says:

We are to Let the word of Christ dwell in us richly in all wisdom -
We are to teach and admonish one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs - (IOW through music)
We are to sing with grace in our hearts to the Lord.

We are to speak to ourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs -
We are to sing and make melody in our heart to the Lord.

kardia - the heart A. the organ in the animal body which is the centre of the circulation of the blood, and hence was regarded as the seat of physical life B. denotes the centre of all physical and spiritual life 1) the vigour and sense of physical life; 2) the centre and seat of spiritual life; a. the soul or mind as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes and endeavors; b. of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence; c. of the will and character; d. of the soul so far as it is affected and stirred in a bad way or good, or of the soul as the seat of sensibilities, affections, emotions, desires, appetites, passions; C. of the middle or central or inmost part of anything, even though inanimate.

Still there is no admonition to NOT use instruments in worship. - no command NOT to use instruments and no command to use instruments - so we still have an argument from silence. By definition of "heart"; we could also assert that we are only to sing in our minds [hearts] to the Lord.

Sorry - I just don't understand your reasoning.

 

[JesusLives]

Maybe it is more like this if you think it is wrong then maybe for you it is.

Romans 14:14

14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

So maybe those who think instruments are wrong for them maybe they are and for those of us who don't think they are wrong for us they aren't - Problem solved?

 

[SolidGround]

Well I would disagree but, I certainly do not stand in condemnation to those who choose to use the instrument. That is neither my right nor my place. I do however feel that many may hold me in complete contempt because I refuse to accept the instrument in worship as I can find no NT authorization for it. I can live with that of course because it is a small thing to me that I be judged by others. I have enjoyed our conversation. Perhaps another time.

No contempt here. We agree in Christ. I fully respect your decision and conviction on the topic, even if I don't agree on the rationale,
it is a good thing to be set apart, and especially when you benefit from it in edification.
I enjoyed the convo too.

 

[Jabberjaw]

As we see his kingdom in heaven is established and has music.....

If one is going to be dogmatic on things that reflect the kingdom, I'd think we'd side on the for sure image we have of that kingdom, ie..one that has instruments...instead of siding with an image that doesn't exist..ie no example of the kingdom without musical instruments..

If you use the highly symbolic book of Revelation to justify instrumental music, from the context you must find all played harps, then too, if you say Col 3:16 and Eph 5:19 is mechanical musical instruments, then like those in heaven that all played, all those in Eph and Col must too since the command was to all, and since you cannot worship for me or I you, every christian must learn to play a stringed musical instrument (the command was given to all) or we all violate the command.

Or better, obey the real command to sing playing on the heart as the instrument as Paul said.

 

[Jabberjaw]

I have looked up the meaning .

This is what the text says:

We are to Let the word of Christ dwell in us richly in all wisdom -
We are to teach and admonish one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs - (IOW through music)
We are to sing with grace in our hearts to the Lord.

We are to speak to ourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs -
We are to sing and make melody in our heart to the Lord.

kardia - the heart A. the organ in the animal body which is the centre of the circulation of the blood, and hence was regarded as the seat of physical life B. denotes the centre of all physical and spiritual life 1) the vigour and sense of physical life; 2) the centre and seat of spiritual life; a. the soul or mind as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes and endeavors; b. of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence; c. of the will and character; d. of the soul so far as it is affected and stirred in a bad way or good, or of the soul as the seat of sensibilities, affections, emotions, desires, appetites, passions; C. of the middle or central or inmost part of anything, even though inanimate.

Still there is no admonition to NOT use instruments in worship. - no command NOT to use instruments and no command to use instruments - so we still have an argument from silence. By definition of "heart"; we could also assert that we are only to sing in our minds [hearts] to the Lord.

Sorry - I just don't understand your reasoning.

The command to sing was to all, you did not look up ψαλλοντες, it means to pluck a string, where is the instrument in Eph 5:19 we are told to 'pluck'? it must be defined in the context, Paul defines the instrument to be the heart, the heart strings are plucked by the singing, like those in Acts 2:37 when they were "pricked in their heart", do you literally think those men and women were physically "pricked" in their heart?

We are told to "sing" and the "singing" makes melody "Psallo" in our hearts.

 

[Utah]

where those listening moved by your music or the singing? because we are told to be moved by the singing, did your music get in the way of that? can you be sure?

I'll let God's love answer that question for me. Which conversation do you think will one day take place?

Conversation 1:
God: "You're condemned to Hell for all eternity."
Me: "God! I love you and put my complete faith in your Son, Jesus Christ! I don't understand!"
God: "I don't care! You played a musical instrument to show your love and faith in my Son! Cursed Heathen!"

OR

Conversation 2:
God: "I love you, my child, and in you I am well pleased!"
Me: "God, I love You so much, but all the sins I have committed against You. I'm so sorry!"
God: "Shhhh, it's alright, my son. I know you love Me. You have always proved your love for Me throughout your life by putting your complete faith and trust in My Son, Jesus, asking Him to be your Lord and Savior. In fact, your faith was so strong you even played a musical instrument in a manner that was glorifying to Him. Come, my child, be with Me and rejoice in your eternal inheritance of life and love, peace and joy, comfort and safety! Welcome home!"

I know which conversation will take place. (hint: it's not the first one).

 

[Jabberjaw]

I'll let God's love answer that question for me. Which conversation do you think will one day take place?

Conversation 1:
God: "You're condemned to Hell for all eternity."
Me: "God! I love you and put my complete faith in your Son, Jesus Christ! I don't understand!"
God: "I don't care! You played a musical instrument to show your love and faith in my Son! Cursed Heathen!"

OR

Conversation 2:
God: "I love you, my child, and in you I am well pleased!"
Me: "God, I love You so much, but all the sins I have committed against You. I'm so sorry!"
God: "Shhhh, it's alright, my son. I know you love Me. You have always proved your love for Me throughout your life by putting your complete faith and trust in My Son, Jesus, asking Him to be your Lord and Savior. In fact, your faith was so strong you even played a musical instrument in a manner that was glorifying to Him. Come, my child, be with Me and rejoice in your eternal inheritance of life and love, peace and joy, comfort and safety! Welcome home!"

I know which conversation will take place. (hint: it's not the first one).

That sounds allot like the Pharisee and the Tax Collector, just the same guy and playing or not playing IM

 

[Sophia]

The command to sing was to all, you did not look up ψαλλοντες, it means to pluck a string, where is the instrument in Eph 5:19 we are told to 'pluck'? it must be defined in the context, Paul defines the instrument to be the heart, the heart strings are plucked by the singing, like those in Acts 2:37 when they were "pricked in their heart", do you literally think those men and women were physically "pricked" in their heart?

We are told to "sing" and the "singing" makes melody "Psallo" in our hearts.

Yes, so instruments are an offering above and beyond the simple command, as our actions are not done simply to satisfy commands, but to express our faith, love, joy, and hope that Christ has given us, by praising His Name.
Are we called to do the bare minimum of the commands? That's legalism at it's worst.

With the way you are talking, this is not an issue of commands and breaking commands and of authority, but a heart issue. Is this a Living Hope and a Joy Unspeakable, or dry dead set of commands, mandates, and allowances?
You claim to have taken off the yoke of the OC, yet you put on a yoke of the same power and weight, rather than the yoke of Christ, which is greater in power, and easy and light. The message you have is the SAME as the OC! There is nothing New about the Covenant you preach, except for replacing some old rules with new ones. I am saying this not just out of this one post, but from the many posts you have written on varied subjects, as they all come back to the same spiritual death.

Set your eyes back on the Cross, and set your heart upon your first love.

 

[Tintin]

Good grief! Not this rubbish again!

 

[Jabberjaw]

Yes, so instruments are an offering above and beyond the simple command, as our actions are not done simply to satisfy commands, but to express our faith, love, joy, and hope that Christ has given us, by praising His Name.
Are we called to do the bare minimum of the commands? That's legalism at it's worst.

With the way you are talking, this is not an issue of commands and breaking commands and of authority, but a heart issue. Is this a Living Hope and a Joy Unspeakable, or dry dead set of commands, mandates, and allowances?
You claim to have taken off the yoke of the OC, yet you put on a yoke of the same power and weight, rather than the yoke of Christ, which is greater in power, and easy and light. The message you have is the SAME as the OC! There is nothing New about the Covenant you preach, except for replacing some old rules with new ones. I am saying this not just out of this one post, but from the many posts you have written on varied subjects, as they all come back to the same spiritual death.

Set your eyes back on the Cross, and set your heart upon your first love.

Yes, His yoke is light, you don't even have to learn to play an instrument, all He asks is for you and I to sing, we don't even have to sing good, just sing...

If you make Eph 5:19 and Col 3:16 mechanical musical instruments, since the command is to all Christians, then all Christians must learn to play a mechanical stringed instrument, you make His yoke harder

 

[Tintin]

Your twisted logic is hilariously bad.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Your twisted logic is hilariously bad.

Nice informative and edifying rebuttal

 

[Lynx]

I used to work with a guy who went to one of those no-instruments churches. He was always debating this with anyone and everyone, especially if he knew you were a christian. He was also always putting down other christians, to their faces even, questioning their salvation any and every way he could.

The way I figure, it doesn't hurt him to do without instruments so I don't bother arguing it with him. And if he did something he thought was a sin, the Bible says it would in fact be a sin to him, even if there was nothing wrong with it per se, because he would be deliberately doing something he thought was wrong.

But man, him trying to start arguments about it ALL THE FRIGGIN TIME really got old.

 

[Jabberjaw]

I used to work with a guy who went to one of those no-instruments churches. He was always debating this with anyone and everyone, especially if he knew you were a christian. He was also always putting down other christians, to their faces even, questioning their salvation any and every way he could.

The way I figure, it doesn't hurt him to do without instruments so I don't bother arguing it with him. And if he did something he thought was a sin, the Bible says it would in fact be a sin to him, even if there was nothing wrong with it per se, because he would be deliberately doing something he thought was wrong.

But man, him trying to start arguments about it ALL THE FRIGGIN TIME really got old.

That is not a real problem, all you had to do is show him the scripture that says you can use mechanical musical instruments in worship, and his argument is over. If everything your congregation does can be shown to be done in the bible by the NT church, then there can be no argument with your congregational worship.