Music in Church?

[oldhermit]

So Jesus told us to pray for God's will on Earth like we see in heaven.
Revelation 4 shows us God's kingdom in heaven.
It has harps.

So what clear spelled out example does the Bible give us for how things are established in heaven?
1. One that includes musical instruments.
2. One that doesn't include musical instruments.

Now if you're going to say the Lord's prayer is about establishing God's kingdom, and a clear example we have of that kingdom has musical instruments, then it makes total reasonable sense to say we should NOT have musical instruments?

That's like saying 1+1 = Mitt Romney's head being shaken by his wife.

Instead of saying 1+1=2

The premise and conclusion just don't connect.

LOL. You did not address the question I asked you. All you did was ask another question.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Well, if this reasoning is sound then let me pose the same question to you I posed to Angela. If the instrument was intended to be a part of the worship of the Church from the beginning why was it rejected in worship for at least the first 1000 years of Church history. Did the Early Church misunderstand Paul's instructions from the times of the apostles and ignore the illustration of the heavenly scene of the harps?

Where do you get your information that music was rejected in worship for the first 1,000 years of the Church's history ?
I know for certain the Catholic and Baptist churches have used music every since their formation, as I have been a part of both and have looked into their history. From the time of the Apostles to now, and even before the Apostles music as always been a part of worship. It is all over the bible that it is a form of worship.

 

[Angela53510]

Yes Angela, I am aware of all of this and I am not questioning the legitimacy of the use of instruments under the Law. I am not even questioning the fact that God appears to have been pleased with them in this. In fact he even instructed them in this. My question is very simple. If this is how the statements by Paul to Ephesus and Colossae were intended to be understood, why did they refuse to obey this apostolic directive?

Did you read my post at all?

The New Covenant fulfills the Old Covenant. It does not cancel out anything, except the sacrifices, and the Law as our judge.

PSALM - look at the definition! Paul used PSALM as an instruction for worship in the New Testament. Do you not think that Paul understood the definition of PSALM???

Psalm implies use of instruments. Paul instructed the congregation to use PSALMS. Therefore, he is explicitly saying to use instruments. If he only wanted "singing" he would NOT have used the word PSALMS, as a former Pharisee, and member of the Jewish community.

Sorry, I can't make it simpler than that. Read what I wrote, instead of retreating to your arguments that are not based on the proper definition of the Word PSALM. You know, PSALM - to play with an instrument, usually stringed, but many other instruments too!

 

[Jabberjaw]

Well . . . I don't see that these scriptures read that way. They specifically say singing with grace in your hearts.

AND
singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Nothing about the twang of my heart strings or tapping . . . . nor is my heart a stringed instrument. . . . so are we reading into the verses?

Both verses use the Greek word Psallo which means to pull or twitch/twang a stringed instrument, like "baptizo" does not define what one is baptized in but must be defined by context, so too, Psallo does not define the stringed instrument, it must come from the context, Paul said the instrument is the heart.

 

[Utah]

If I decided to sing How Great Thou Art with a band, in worship service, how can that display of love and adoration towards God be deemed negative?

 

[Jabberjaw]

Did you read my post at all?

The New Covenant fulfills the Old Covenant. It does not cancel out anything, except the sacrifices, and the Law as our judge.

PSALM - look at the definition! Paul used PSALM as an instruction for worship in the New Testament. Do you not think that Paul understood the definition of PSALM???

Psalm implies use of instruments. Paul instructed the congregation to use PSALMS. Therefore, he is explicitly saying to use instruments. If he only wanted "singing" he would NOT have used the word PSALMS, as a former Pharisee, and member of the Jewish community.

Sorry, I can't make it simpler than that. Read what I wrote, instead of retreating to your arguments that are not based on the proper definition of the Word PSALM. You know, PSALM - to play with an instrument, usually stringed, but many other instruments too!

All the times I looked at the book of Psalms, I never saw one musical note. ?

 

[oldhermit]

If you're church of Christ, and you're appealing to church history and not the Bible, that gives you more in common with Papists and Rome. Assuming you're COC.

If you're not COC, it's still odd to appeal to church history.

All I am saying is that history bears out the understand of the early Church regarding this issue. The instructions were given by Paul in Eph and Col and history bears out how the early Church understood those instructions. Were they wrong or have we today been wrong.

 

[oldhermit]

All the times I looked at the book of Psalms, I never saw one musical note. ?

Psalms where usually chanted or sang with the accompaniment of musical instruments in the OT.

 

[Jabberjaw]

If I decided to sing How Great Thou Art with a band, in worship service, how can that display of love and adoration towards God be deemed negative?

where those listening moved by your music or the singing? because we are told to be moved by the singing, did your music get in the way of that? can you be sure?

 

[posthuman]

Can you show me how i'm supposed to use my God given talent to fix Jet Airplanes for His glory?, maybe we should just stick with the God given ability He gave us and told us both to use, sing.

yes, get yourself a job fixing jet airplanes, and be the best jet-airplane-mechanic you can be, a faithful and true employee. and when anyon asks you why you go above and beyond what's required of you in your duties, tell them you work "as though to the Lord, not men" -- and that my brother, i would call worship in spirit and in truth.

now playing my drum, i got a couple of choices: i can play all alone, and in my heart give glory to God with the noise i make. i can play with others in a secular setting, and, well it's going to be hard depending on where that profane ensemble wants to go with the purpose and place of their song-playing. or i could play with other like-minded believers, and accompany singing praise.
or i could bury my talent in the sand and never make use of it for fear of my harsh Master.

i'm pretty well convinced in my mind which of these is good - option 1 & 3, but not 2 or 4.
do you think am on the right track? or just stick with option 1 and hide in a soundproof closet to make sure only my Father hears the song and no one else is led to devilry by the smooth riddims?

i am sure that in many congregations myself and a couple others with a setlist of hymns might do more harm than good (i.e. at a CoC), but in others, i think it might actually be a blessing, and as long as we are all playing as though to God, and not vainly, i really believe God is pleased. don't you?

 

[posthuman]

To whom are they worshiping?

did you not catch the lyrics?

forgive me if you just saw the instruments and became horrified.

here:

You were calling
You were calling me to you
And I run
And I run to you

I need you
I can't get enough of you
I come alive when I'm in your presence
Oh God of my salvation

You adore me
You are drawing me to you
And I run Jesus
And I run

 

[psychomom]

man, i just had no clue this was such a hot topic.

to me, it's kinda like which day you recognize as sabbath...
do as your conscience before God dictates.

 

[SoulWeaver]

How about judge righteous judgment (by the fruit), not by outward appearance?
I have been so blessed by some worship songs that also have instruments and they helped keep my mind on God when my mind was scattered, helped bring me closer to God, inspired me for worship, gave me peace and joy. Is that NOT the work of the Holy Spirit?

 

[oldhermit]

Where do you get your information that music was rejected in worship for the first 1,000 years of the Church's history ?
I know for certain the Catholic and Baptist churches have used music every since their formation, as I have been a part of both and have looked into their history. From the time of the Apostles to now, and even before the Apostles music as always been a part of worship. It is all over the bible that it is a form of worship.

Perhaps you can provide historical evidence to that fact. It may be possible to trace it back to the sixth century, there is some question about this but it can certainly be proven after the eleventh century.

 

[tourist]

Well, if this reasoning is sound then let me pose the same question to you I posed to Angela. If the instrument was intended to be a part of the worship of the Church from the beginning why was it rejected in worship for at least the first 1000 years of Church history. Did the Early Church misunderstand Paul's instructions from the times of the apostles and ignore the illustration of the heavenly scene of the harps?

Perhaps the church couldn't afford to purchase the instruments because the congregation did not believe in tithing.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Psalms where usually chanted or sang with the accompaniment of musical instruments in the OT.

Nowhere was musical instruments authorized by God, it was brought into worship by David, he was not struck dead like Nadab and Abihu, but either way, whether God authorized David to use musical instruments or not, it is not show in the pattern of the NT church, nowhere has it been found used in worship from the day of Pentecost until the catholic church brought it in over a thousand years later.

 

[oldhermit]

Did you read my post at all?

The New Covenant fulfills the Old Covenant. It does not cancel out anything, except the sacrifices, and the Law as our judge.

PSALM - look at the definition! Paul used PSALM as an instruction for worship in the New Testament. Do you not think that Paul understood the definition of PSALM???

Psalm implies use of instruments. Paul instructed the congregation to use PSALMS. Therefore, he is explicitly saying to use instruments. If he only wanted "singing" he would NOT have used the word PSALMS, as a former Pharisee, and member of the Jewish community.

Sorry, I can't make it simpler than that. Read what I wrote, instead of retreating to your arguments that are not based on the proper definition of the Word PSALM. You know, PSALM - to play with an instrument, usually stringed, but many other instruments too!

Angela, I read your post but you are still avoiding my question. If this is how ψαλμός was to be understood in Paul's instructions to Ephesus and Colossae, why did they refuse to obey this apostolic directive?

 

[Jabberjaw]

pretty sure that was performed and recorded by a member of the body of Christ during the time period "Pentecost up until now"

did you want to see someone playing a guitar and singing a spiritual song that was written in the A.D. era?
OK, here:

[video] clutter removed.

are these, my sister and brother, not worshiping?

Just one big problem, where was this authorized in the NT? (that's the part of the bible since Christ arose)

 

[SolidGround]

If you take the time to look up "instruments in the Church", you will find evidence of use of them during the 3rd century, and debates about them throughout the next 3 centuries, with resolutions made under councils before the fall of the Roman Empire banning them as "a symbol of lasciviousness and debauchery". Not exactly how the Word describes instruments... makes one wonder if the councils were basing this on the Word at all, as they did not use Scripture in the discussions, but Platonic reasoning. We follow Christ, not Plato. Why did they reference Plato, but not the Word? Their decision was law in the church until the 800s, and entirely disregarded by the western church by 1000.

 

[kennethcadwell]

• [h=4]2 Chronicles 5:13[/h]
  Those who blew the trumpets and those who sang together sounded like one person as they praised and thanked the Lord. They sang as others played their trumpets, cymbals, and other instruments. They praised the Lord with this song: "He is good; his love continues forever." Then the Temple of the Lord was filled with a cloud.
  
  
  • [h=4]Exodus 15:1[/h]
    Then Moses and the Israelites sang this song to the Lord: "I will sing to the Lord, because he is worthy of great honor. He has thrown the horse and its rider into the sea.