Music in Church?

[notuptome]

All you have to do is show the verse that authorizes mechanical instruments, if you add to the "sing" without authorization it is as Paul calls it "will worship" or "self imposed religion" :

Colossians 2:23 (KJV)
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Colossians 2:23 (NKJV)
23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Colossians 2:23 (ASV)
23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will-worship, and humility, and severity to the body; but are not of any value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Colossians 2:23 (NASB)
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

Colossians 2:23 (YLT)
23 which are, indeed, having a matter of wisdom in will-worship, and humble-mindedness, and neglecting of body--not in any honour, unto a satisfying of the flesh.

I think of no better definition of will worship than to deny instruments in church. Hypocritical self denial to appear pious. Self religion pretty well describes the whole matter.

Paul said to do in the church things in an orderly fashion. I know a few fine Christian folks that are far better off listening than singing although they would love to sing they just can't.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[posthuman]

All you have to do is show the verse that authorizes mechanical instruments, if you add to the "sing" without authorization it is as Paul calls it "will worship" or "self imposed religion" :

Colossians 2:23 (KJV)
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

how about include the context of this snippet?

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.


you are telling me "touch not taste not handle not" -- and the apostle is telling me such worldly, human rules and impositions are just a show of wisdom and ineffective and superfluous with regard to the spirit.

 

[Jabberjaw]

I think of no better definition of will worship than to deny instruments in church. Hypocritical self denial to appear pious. Self religion pretty well describes the whole matter.

Paul said to do in the church things in an orderly fashion. I know a few fine Christian folks that are far better off listening than singing although they would love to sing they just can't.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Maybe you could show the verse Paul or any other gospel writer said to worship any way you want, just do it orderly ?

 

[Jabberjaw]

how about include the context of this snippet?

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.


you are telling me "touch not taste not handle not" -- and the apostle is telling me such worldly, human rules and impositions are just a show of wisdom and ineffective and superfluous with regard to the spirit.

Try reading that again, it is telling you to follow Christ and not the "commandments and doctrines of men" and since you cannot produce the use of mechanical musical instruments in the law of Christ, to use them is to follow the "commandments and doctrines of men" making you a "will worshiper"

 

[kennethcadwell]

Maybe you could show the verse Paul or any other gospel writer said to worship any way you want, just do it orderly ?

Once again all you are doing by telling others they can not use instruments in worship, is placing stumbling blocks on others that the bible does forbid.
If you think it is a sin, then leave that between you and God. Do not force your unsupported biblical principles on others.

1 Corinthians 6:12
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1 Corinthians 10:23
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.


Do musical instruments edify, I would tell you yes as I have seen first hand people go from frowns to smiles and cheerfulness to the Lord when the music starts playing and the congregation starts singing praises, psalms, and hymns to God. It uplifts them and takes them away from thinking about their sorrows during that time.

 

[posthuman]

Maybe you could show the verse Paul or any other gospel writer said to worship any way you want, just do it orderly ?

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free.
Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
(Galatians 5:1)

yes, he's talking about circumcision specifically, but he's giving us a a principle for discernment too:

You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
(Galatians 5:4)

this imposition of a law not found anywhere in the scripture, what is this?
like he explains to the believers in Colossi, the human ordinances are of no spiritual value, and we being dead to the world, are not bound by them, but follow a higher law:

For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
(Galatians 5:5-6)

circumcision and uncircumcision are meaningless in Christ.
what counts is faith expressing itself through love!

can you show me where it is written that faith and love cannot rightly be expressed by anything but the human voice?

Christ said the time now is when His true worshipers don't worship either in Jerusalem or on some particular mountain, but in spirit and truth.
this imposition of a law not written anywhere in the scripture, against what was approved by God in the old covenant, and is approved by God in eternity to come - is that by spirit? by truth? or by a carnal human command that gives nothing but the appearance of piety in the flesh?

can you show anyone why that if the slightest noise is made by anything but a human vocal chord, the spirit and the truth are nullified? where is it written that if a believer taps his foot on a floor or his finger on a piece of wood, or claps his hands, he has polluted the spirit and made the sacrifice of praise into an abomination?

 

[Jabberjaw]

Once again all you are doing by telling others they can not use instruments in worship, is placing stumbling blocks on others that the bible does forbid.
If you think it is a sin, then leave that between you and God. Do not force your unsupported biblical principles on others.

1 Corinthians 6:12
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1 Corinthians 10:23
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.


Do musical instruments edify, I would tell you yes as I have seen first hand people go from frowns to smiles and cheerfulness to the Lord when the music starts playing and the congregation starts singing praises, psalms, and hymns to God. It uplifts them and takes them away from thinking about their sorrows during that time.

I am not grabbing you by the arm and pulling you or anyone else out of a church building that has mechanical musical instruments, I am only telling you what the bible says, all you can tell me is what it doesn't say, and using that to justify that which serves your own belly, Paul calls that "will worship", "self imposed religion" since God did not "impose" it, you did.

 

[posthuman]

Try reading that again, it is telling you to follow Christ and not the "commandments and doctrines of men" and since you cannot produce the use of mechanical musical instruments in the law of Christ, to use them is to follow the "commandments and doctrines of men" making you a "will worshiper"

show me where the commandment not to make any noise except with human voices comes from?

it is not in scripture. it is a command of men.

 

[Jabberjaw]

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free.
Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
(Galatians 5:1)

yes, he's talking about circumcision specifically, but he's giving us a a principle for discernment too:

You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
(Galatians 5:4)

this imposition of a law not found anywhere in the scripture, what is this?
like he explains to the believers in Colossi, the human ordinances are of no spiritual value, and we being dead to the world, are not bound by them, but follow a higher law:

For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
(Galatians 5:5-6)

circumcision and uncircumcision are meaningless in Christ.
what counts is faith expressing itself through love!

can you show me where it is written that faith and love cannot rightly be expressed by anything but the human voice?

Christ said the time now is when His true worshipers don't worship either in Jerusalem or on some particular mountain, but in spirit and truth.
this imposition of a law not written anywhere in the scripture, against what was approved by God in the old covenant, and is approved by God in eternity to come - is that by spirit? by truth? or by a carnal human command that gives nothing but the appearance of piety in the flesh?

can you show anyone why that if the slightest noise is made by anything but a human vocal chord, the spirit and the truth are nullified? where is it written that if a believer taps his foot on a floor or his finger on a piece of wood, or claps his hands, he has polluted the spirit and made the sacrifice of praise into an abomination?

All of that, and not one verse that says anything other than "sing"...

 

[Jabberjaw]

show me where the commandment not to make any noise except with human voices comes from?

it is not in scripture. it is a command of men.

The bible only says "sing" you have to add to it, adding to it makes it man made doctrine, "will worship"

 

[posthuman]

All of that, and not one verse that says anything other than "sing"...

not one verse says "post on the internet" ...

or "don't dare ring a bell or breathe into a flute for it is abomination" ...

 

[posthuman]

are CoC buildings all sound-proofed and designed with echo-cancellation in mind?

because you know, singing inside a building causes the building itself to resonate, exactly like it was one big musical instrument.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I am not grabbing you by the arm and pulling you or anyone else out of a church building that has mechanical musical instruments, I am only telling you what the bible says, all you can tell me is what it doesn't say, and using that to justify that which serves your own belly, Paul calls that "will worship", "self imposed religion" since God did not "impose" it, you did.

No that is your issue, because you are telling people the bible condemns the usage of instruments in worship when it does no such thing. You are reading more into those verses that isn't there, and telling others its wrong.
It is not will or self worship if you are playing those instruments to and for God, for the scripture you give does not condemn their usage nor does it say it condones it.

What makes it wrong or right is how you are using them;

If played for and to God then it is not wrong........

If played for self praise and recognition, then yes it is wrong........


You can not make it say it is completely wrong, or completely right one way or the other. It is how they are used......
If the instruments are used in the proper manner in worship to Him then nothing is wrong with that, and God would approve of it as He did with David.

 

[Jabberjaw]

not one verse says "post on the internet" ...

or "don't dare ring a bell or breathe into a flute for it is abomination" ...

and non of that should be used in "worship"

You're that desperate, it is laughable, you cannot come up with justification of instrumental music, so you throw out rhetoric

 

[Jabberjaw]

are CoC buildings all sound-proofed and designed with echo-cancellation in mind?

because you know, singing inside a building causes the building itself to resonate, exactly like it was one big musical instrument.

The voice was commanded... your mechanical musical instrument was not, keep trying though...

 

[posthuman]

every vibration in earth's atmosphere produces sound.

every time anyone speaks or sings, they vibrate the air around them. that wave of vibration in turn transfers energy to everything around them, vibrating it.

if you stand near a window and sing, you vibrate that window, playing it exactly like a drum.

if you guys really want to follow this law of yours to the letter, i think you need to stuff socks in your mouths when you sing, else you are playing the whole church building as an instrument.

there is no NT scripture specifically authorizing vibrating the back of the pew in front of you, you know..

 

[JesusLives]

By now both sides have stated their case....far as Blond can tell nobody is giving an inch....So in Love and Brotherhood of the NEW YEAR 2015 Blond is making a request out of love and in peace and harmony. Please see request as pictured below.

In the name of love before you break God's heart think it over
.....................................................................................That is all. Blond out..........

 

[posthuman]

and non of that should be used in "worship"

You're that desperate, it is laughable, you cannot come up with justification of instrumental music, so you throw out rhetoric

i direct you to Psalms 1-150.

oh yeah, forgot -- you throw out half of your Bible when it comes to this subject.

 

[posthuman]

II am only telling you what the bible says

um, no, you are telling us what it does not say.

 

[Jabberjaw]

No that is your issue, because you are telling people the bible condemns the usage of instruments in worship when it does no such thing. You are reading more into those verses that isn't there, and telling others its wrong.

No, I am not reading anything "into" anything, I am reading what it says, it says "sing", you on the other hand are trying to read into it, trying to make it say you can use IM because it doesn't say you can't, you are "adding to", I am only reading it...

It is not will or self worship if you are playing those instruments to and for God, for the scripture you give does not condemn their usage nor does it say it condones it.

It is will worship if it is YOU that says God wants instruments, when He did not say He does, He said "sing", you're adding to His command to "sing" because YOU WANT IT, YOU LIKE IT, that is YOUR WILL worship.

What makes it wrong or right is how you are using them;

If played for and to God then it is not wrong........

and I am asking you to prove that to me with the bible, if you have to use your opinion then it is your will, not His, or "will worship"

If played for self praise and recognition, then yes it is wrong........

If He did not ask for it, it is for self praise and recognition.

You can not make it say it is completely wrong, or completely right one way or the other. It is how they are used......
If the instruments are used in the proper manner in worship to Him then nothing is wrong with that, and God would approve of it as He did with David.

I hear you, but your not showing me, where is the scripture to back up what you say? I can show you where He said "sing", show me what you say is true.