Music in Church?

[kennethcadwell]

Go back to the dispensation you use to authorize it, God did not say to Nadab and Abihu don't use this fire, don't use that fire, he told them what fire to use, they chose to use their own version of fire... they changed the word of God by using a fire that was not condemned, but excluded...

As another here said, when God told Noah to build a ark with gopher wood, did He give him a list of wood NOT to use?

If using things "excluded" in the dispensation you use for justification of instrumental music condemned things "excluded" how is it you think you can "add to" this dispensation "excluded" things?

If you are going to do that then you might as well say David is and never was saved, since he used and authorized musical instruments to be used in worship as I have shown you many scriptures. Some of which do not limit what instruments can be used as I have shown. Now why would God be pleased with the use of them, then all of a sudden not be in which scripture gives no indication He did not approve of them.
They were still used in some early churches, just not a wide range of them because they were trying to separate pagan practices from worship. However they went to far as some still do today, trying to make things pagan just because they somewhat resemble pagan practices. The truth is behind the purpose of why the things you do are done.
If you use guitars, drums, or what ever instrument you choice in your songs, hymns, or psalms you sing to God, then the usage of the instrument is not wrong. For you are playing them for and to God.

 

[longtrekker]

There is an 'amen' button. It is the star shaped button on the bottom of each post in the left hand corner.

Oops! hit the 'triangle' button by mistake instead! - kidddding!

 

[Jabberjaw]

If you are going to do that then you might as well say David is and never was saved, since he used and authorized musical instruments to be used in worship as I have shown you many scriptures. Some of which do not limit what instruments can be used as I have shown. Now why would God be pleased with the use of them, then all of a sudden not be in which scripture gives no indication He did not approve of them.
They were still used in some early churches, just not a wide range of them because they were trying to separate pagan practices from worship. However they went to far as some still do today, trying to make things pagan just because they somewhat resemble pagan practices. The truth is behind the purpose of why the things you do are done.
If you use guitars, drums, or what ever instrument you choice in your songs, hymns, or psalms you sing to God, then the usage of the instrument is not wrong. For you are playing them for and to God.

If how and what David did, had no need for change, why send the Christ.

Now find where the Christ said we could have mechanical musical instruments in worship service so I can start using them too...

 

[Jabberjaw]

That's basically what I said too.
I will give ALL my skills to God, not just my voice. I give ALL for Him and I dont make other music than worship! God is my only song. I respect your disagreement on music but I ask you to please not judge. Okay that's it of me here. Stay blessed

The problem is that not all righteous works (like the woman you said washing dishes) is worship, we are told in the bible how to worship, and "sing" is one of those commands.

 

[Sophia]

This is where Dispensationalism is sooo wrong. They divide the Word so wrongly. They abolish the OT, and only accept the laws given or reaffirmed in the NT, but follow them like the OC. Zero Spirit. Just literal. Letter of the Law... NT Law, but still just letters.
Under Christ, we are authorized unto all things, as we are in Him, and He has been given all authority on heaven and on earth. Why would we throw out the instructions in the headings of the Psalms, and the instructions of the Psalm themselves? Are they not to be used in corporate worship? How can you sing a Psalm calling for the use of tambourine and harps in your congregation, and deny them the use?
Did Christ come to abolish the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms? No. He fulfilled them, and by following Him we also fulfill them.

You likely hold to Progressive Revelation, so you can hold onto Dispensation Pre-millennialism and Dispensationalism in general, but will deny Progressive Revelation on the use of instruments being part of our freedom in Christ?

 

[Sophia]

I shouldn't knock Dispensationalism as a whole, but the form expressed on this thread. Most of them are not so closed to spiritual things.

 

[Jabberjaw]

This is where Dispensationalism is sooo wrong. They divide the Word so wrongly. They abolish the OT, and only accept the laws given or reaffirmed in the NT, but follow them like the OC. Zero Spirit. Just literal. Letter of the Law... NT Law, but still just letters.
Under Christ, we are authorized unto all things, as we are in Him, and He has been given all authority on heaven and on earth. Why would we throw out the instructions in the headings of the Psalms, and the instructions of the Psalm themselves? Are they not to be used in corporate worship? How can you sing a Psalm calling for the use of tambourine and harps in your congregation, and deny them the use?
Did Christ come to abolish the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms? No. He fulfilled them, and by following Him we also fulfill them.

You likely hold to Progressive Revelation, so you can hold onto Dispensation Pre-millennialism and Dispensationalism in general, but will deny Progressive Revelation on the use of instruments being part of our freedom in Christ?

We are no longer under the Levitical priesthood, we now have a new unchanging high priest, with the change of the priesthood required a change of the Law, if you are "in Him" then you are not under another high priest, not under the Law.

Hebrews 7:11-13 (KJV)
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

The law was not destroyed, it was fulfilled, "abolished" meaning no longer under it, it is but a school master for our learning.

 

[The_highwayman]

I shouldn't knock Dispensationalism as a whole, but the form expressed on this thread. Most of them are not so closed to spiritual things.

Sophia, as I stated most of the folks saying instruments are not allowed are Church Of Christ followers. They do not believe in Holy Spirit initiated conversion and as rule only believe that their good works and following Jesus commands will get them to heaven.

It is a works based salvation doctrine. If the do not believe in Holy Spirit conviction, then they cannot receive spiritual things, because you can only do that by the Spirit of God

1 cor 2.14-
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

If you read all 1 cor 2....you will see where they are coming from. They are relying on human understanding and use the scientific method to interpret the Bible and that method is also the foundation of their entire doctrine.

 

[The_highwayman]

The law was not destroyed, it was fulfilled, "abolished" meaning no longer under it, it is but a school master for our learning

If this is true then you are stating the Bible is a lie, because Gal 3.23-25 says:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

You are now stating a direct lie, the Bible says the Law is no longer our school master, since we have Christ, but you state we are.

Gal 3.25
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

So you entire doctrine is on sinking sand, you state the law is your school master for learning, but break the law of the OT, because you claim you do not have to follow it and it's teachings do not apply to this dispensation your are in.

So how can you be taught by something you do not believe in?

This also completely invalidates anything you have stated on this thread.

WHY?

You state the law is your school master to learn from, but also state you are not under it.

you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.....

 

[Jabberjaw]

If this is true then you are stating the Bible is a lie, because Gal 3.23-25 says:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

You are now stating a direct lie, the Bible says the Law is no longer our school master, since we have Christ, but you state we are.

Gal 3.25
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

So you entire doctrine is on sinking sand, you state the law is your school master for learning, but break the law of the OT, because you claim you do not have to follow it and it's teachings do not apply to this dispensation your are in.

So how can you be taught by something you do not believe in?

This also completely invalidates anything you have stated on this thread.

WHY?

You state the law is your school master to learn from, but also state you are not under it.

you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.....

Didn't God give you the revelation you think we all didn't already get in the bible?

I said the same thing the bible said, we are no longer under the school master, I did not say there is no longer a school master, I said Christ did not come to destroy the Law (school master) but to fulfill it... since there was necessity of the changing of the priesthood, so too required a change of the Law (no longer under the school master)...

Go back and re-read what I said, (or maybe God will reveal it or something new to you next Sunday that we all, already knew from the bible)

 

[Sophia]

So then what learning do you take from the calls to instruments in the Psalms? If you see this as a schoolmaster, as you claim to believe, then tell me what can be learned.

 

[Jabberjaw]

So then what learning do you take from the calls to instruments in the Psalms? If you see this as a schoolmaster, as you claim to believe, then tell me what can be learned.

You can learn many things, God taught through Abraham even a white lie is wrong (telling the king his wife was his sister, not wanting to tell him she was his wife, yet both were true, but he told a white lie) that God means what he said, and said what he means (Nadab and Abihu), how the earth was created as well us, how the Christ and the Church were planned before the creation, it was not an afterthought, and the list goes on... but nothing in the OT will save you, it required the savior and His law of Liberty, and our belief and obedience to it that will save you

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

The OT is just as much scripture as the NT, the first promises a savior, the second fulfills the first, and tells us "what we must do to be saved".

 

[Jeff_56]

well, not really related to music, per se, but since so few people have come to faith in Jesus yet, and almost no one actually seems to know how to, or where to go, or where to look, or what to do,

wouldn't they rejoice to find a school teacher to lead them in the right way ? (i.e. towards God and God's Purpose and faith in Jesus Christ as God's Grace allows ? (while there is or may be still time!!) )

Psalms 1, Psalms 119, Psalms 91, Psalms 23 are all good starts for someone seeking God, for someone who doesn't yet have faith the size of a mustard seed even. All the Psalms lead to Christ Jesus, at least I think so...

i.e. until people are diligently seeking God's Life, or walking by faith His Way, are they to just do whatever they want to do ? to go follow whatever school of opinion or religion they can find that suits their opinion of life ?

this is urgently important and may or may not include musical inclinations / music/ instruments, for a time;
but certainly
if people are not living God's Life by Faith in Jesus Christ daily , then whatever they do musically will probably not make too much difference, will it ?

 

[Sophia]

You can learn many things, God taught through Abraham even a white lie is wrong (telling the king his wife was his sister, not wanting to tell him she was his wife, yet both were true, but he told a white lie) that God means what he said, and said what he means (Nadab and Abihu), how the earth was created as well us, how the Christ and the Church were planned before the creation, it was not an afterthought, and the list goes on... but nothing in the OT will save you, it required the savior and His law of Liberty, and our belief and obedience to it that will save you

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

The OT is just as much scripture as the NT, the first promises a savior, the second fulfills the first, and tells us "what we must do to be saved".

I am specifically asking about the verses that instruct us to praise God with instrument in the assembly. Not all OT in general.
What can you learn from David's instruction to play instruments along with his Psalms?
Are those instructions to be thrown out, or is there something you can learn from them?
From context, it makes sense that this was specifically to musicians, and not forcing everyone to learn to play, but it did call for musicians to play. How does this relate to the NT Church?

 

[Elizabeth619]

Sophia, as I stated most of the folks saying instruments are not allowed are Church Of Christ followers. They do not believe in Holy Spirit initiated conversion and as rule only believe that their good works and following Jesus commands will get them to heaven.

It is a works based salvation doctrine. If the do not believe in Holy Spirit conviction, then they cannot receive spiritual things, because you can only do that by the Spirit of God

1 cor 2.14-
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

If you read all 1 cor 2....you will see where they are coming from. They are relying on human understanding and use the scientific method to interpret the Bible and that method is also the foundation of their entire doctrine.

I think you may want to study more on what the Church of Christ believes before you say such things. It's funny that the things you and others say about the Church of Christ is nothing like what is taught within the church. I should know. I've attended the Church of Christ for 33 years.

 

[Jabberjaw]

I am specifically asking about the verses that instruct us to praise God with instrument in the assembly. Not all OT in general.
What can you learn from David's instruction to play instruments along with his Psalms?
Are those instructions to be thrown out, or is there something you can learn from them?

The instruments David used for worship are of no more use today then animal sacrifice or any other Levitical form of worship not carried over by Christ to the NT church he created, unless one can show the church Christ created to use instruments or any other form of worship as did David, then to use them would be adding to the worship of our Lord, or what Paul called "will worship".

 

[The_highwayman]

Didn't God give you the revelation you think we all didn't already get in the bible?

I said the same thing the bible said, we are no longer under the school master, I did not say there is no longer a school master, I said Christ did not come to destroy the Law (school master) but to fulfill it... since there was necessity of the changing of the priesthood, so too required a change of the Law (no longer under the school master)...

Go back and re-read what I said, (or maybe God will reveal it or something new to you next Sunday that we all, already knew from the bible)[/QUOTE
Ok I just re-read what you said and here it is in quotes, you said:

The law was not destroyed, it was fulfilled, "abolished" meaning no longer under it, it is but a school master for our learning

This is not at all what the Bible says, so either it was a type or you are lying.

 

[The_highwayman]

I think you may want to study more on what the Church of Christ believes before you say such things. It's funny that the things you and others say about the Church of Christ is nothing like what is taught within the church. I should know. I've attended the Church of Christ for 33 years.

Are you traditional COC or COC Disciples or another variant, that split from the traditional COC?

 

[Sophia]

The instruments David used for worship are of no more use today then animal sacrifice or any other Levitical form of worship not carried over by Christ to the NT church he created, unless one can show the church Christ created to use instruments or any other form of worship as did David, then to use them would be adding to the worship of our Lord, or what Paul called "will worship".

1st, David was not instructing about Levitical worship.
2nd, still answer me: what instruction can the NT Church take from David's instruction to use instruments to worship God in the assembly?

 

[Jabberjaw]

Ok I just re-read what you said and here it is in quotes, you said:

The law was not destroyed, it was fulfilled, , it is but a school master for our learning

This is not at all what the Bible says, so either it was a type or you are lying.

I paraphrased what the bible says, and you did not complete my quote, here it is in its whole:

The law was not destroyed, it was fulfilled, "abolished" meaning no longer under it, it is but a school master for our learning

my first part of what you quoted of me :

The law was not destroyed, it was fulfilled

Matthew 5:17 (KJV)
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.


Next, the part you left out "

"abolished" meaning no longer under it

Ephesians 2:15 (KJV)
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

abolish (Thayer)
- Original: καταργέω
- Transliteration: Katargeo
- Phonetic: kat-arg-eh'-o
- Definition:
1. to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
a. to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
b. to deprive of force, influence, power
2. to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
a. to cease, to pass away, be done away
b. to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
c. to terminate all intercourse with one
- Origin: from G2596 and G691
- TDNT entry: 08:32,8
- Part(s) of speech: Verb

It is no longer in force.

The last part you quoted of me

it is but a school master for our learning

Galatians 3:24-25 (KJV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

(schoolmaster) (Thayer)
Original: παιδαγωγός
- Transliteration: Paidagogos
- Phonetic: pahee-dag-o-gos'
- Definition:
1. a tutor i.e. a guardian and guide of boys.

Where did I lie?