Music in Church?

[Jabberjaw]

1st, David was not instructing about Levitical worship.
2nd, still answer me: what instruction can the NT Church take from David's instruction to use instruments to worship God in the assembly?

That at one time, David organize the duties of those offering praise to God, which is recorded in II Chronicles 29:25-28 (notice verse 26 "And the Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets."), which included assigning duties to those playing various instruments.

so how do we use that to justify playing these various instruments in NT worship when unlike the time of David, only "sing" is commanded... and not one single recording of the NT church ever carrying out any of these forms of worship David did? If we worship the way we want to, even if it like David used to do it, it is called "will worship"

Colossians 2:23 (KJV)
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

 

[kennethcadwell]

If how and what David did, had no need for change, why send the Christ.

Now find where the Christ said we could have mechanical musical instruments in worship service so I can start using them too...

Now that is just a crazy thing to say as the use of instruments in worship have nothing to do with why Christ came.
Christ came so that we could be forgiven of our sins, using instruments in worship is not a sin unless you personally make it a sin for yourself. If that is the case then that is something you have to deal with, do not force your theology on others though as that is between you and God.

What you are doing is the same as those who still try to force on others that we can not eat Ham, because it was wrong from the OT standards. However the new testament says we can eat anything and we are pray and give thanks over it, for it now has been sanctified.
The difference between the two is that the bible makes a clear cut showing that we can eat it now, but as for instruments the NT does not condemn or condone the usage of them. Only if you read more into what is not there do you come up with that, so caution yourself and do not force what you consider a sin on others when the bible does not say it is a sin or wrong to do.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Now that is just a crazy thing to say as the use of instruments in worship have nothing to do with why Christ came.
Christ came so that we could be forgiven of our sins, using instruments in worship is not a sin unless you personally make it a sin for yourself. If that is the case then that is something you have to deal with, do not force your theology on others though as that is between you and God.

What you are doing is the same as those who still try to force on others that we can not eat Ham, because it was wrong from the OT standards. However the new testament says we can eat anything and we are pray and give thanks over it, for it now has been sanctified.
The difference between the two is that the bible makes a clear cut showing that we can eat it now, but as for instruments the NT does not condemn or condone the usage of them. Only if you read more into what is not there do you come up with that, so caution yourself and do not force what you consider a sin on others when the bible does not say it is a sin or wrong to do.

What you are doing is saying because it does not say we can't use instrumental music in worship it is okay, by your logic because it does not say poisonous snakes cannot be used in worship, then its okay? what makes one insane and the other not when neither can be found to have authority or example in the NT church? to me they are in the same category and insane.

 

[Sophia]

That at one time, David organize the duties of those offering praise to God, which is recorded in II Chronicles 29:25-28 (notice verse 26 "And the Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets."), which included assigning duties to those playing various instruments.

so how do we use that to justify playing these various instruments in NT worship when unlike the time of David, only "sing" is commanded... and not one single recording of the NT church ever carrying out any of these forms of worship David did? If we worship the way we want to, even if it like David used to do it, it is called "will worship"

Colossians 2:23 (KJV)
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Fourth time asking: what instruction can the NT Church take from David's instruction, in the book of Psalms, to use instruments to worship God in the assembly? (Useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and instructing)

 

[Jeff_56]

RE a few posts back....

sorry, but even if that was true. eating pork has serious consequences, besides the damage to peoples faith.

in the book by pastor josephson, who was healed of prstate cancer after being by official licensed ama doctors told it was terminal and that he only had a few months to live (as many are told by doctors every day, btw),
he , who had been a pastor for sometime,
discovered and then published his own book by God's Grace "God's Key to Health and Happiness" (similar in some ways to the book "a curse causeless shall not come")
which is still published (or was within the last few years and available online )
and
he , pastor josephson lived another 50 or 60 years cancer free....

the book is perhaps not a biblical revelation so much as an expose of the lies told by the ama every day to protect the bigpharm's lies and profitmongering.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Fourth time asking: what instruction can the NT Church take from David's instruction, in the book of Psalms, to use instruments to worship God in the assembly? (Useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and instructing)

I have answered your question every way I know, it is not the answer you want to hear so you reject it, I will attempt to answer it as short as possible so maybe you can get it, just like animal sacrifice in the OT, it is "history"

 

[kennethcadwell]

What you are doing is saying because it does not say we can't use instrumental music in worship it is okay, by your logic because it does not say poisonous snakes cannot be used in worship, then its okay? what makes one insane and the other not when neither can be found to have authority or example in the NT church? to me they are in the same category and insane.

You keep wanting to compare apples to oranges.
You want to take and compare a thing that is harmless to something that is harmful, which is a far cry in trying to prove your point. However what you are doing, by thinking musical instruments are not to be used in worship making it a sin for yourself. Then you take and try to put that stumbling block on others, which the bible does forbid.

 

[Sophia]

I have answered your question every way I know, it is not the answer you want to hear so you reject it, I will attempt to answer it as short as possible so maybe you can get it, just like animal sacrifice in the OT, it is "history"

2 Timothy 3:16
If it is Scripture, then it is not useless to us. What is the purpose of David's instruction to use instruments to worship God in the assembly, in application to the NT Church? (Useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and instructing)

Even the sacrificial laws have spiritual meaning for us. Why is it that this one topic of instruments is totally disposable?

 

[kennethcadwell]

RE a few posts back....

sorry, but even if that was true. eating pork has serious consequences, besides the damage to peoples faith.

in the book by pastor josephson, who was healed of prstate cancer after being by official licensed ama doctors told it was terminal and that he only had a few months to live (as many are told by doctors every day, btw),
he , who had been a pastor for sometime,
discovered and then published his own book by God's Grace "God's Key to Health and Happiness" (similar in some ways to the book "a curse causeless shall not come")
which is still published (or was within the last few years and available online )
and
he , pastor josephson lived another 50 or 60 years cancer free....

the book is perhaps not a biblical revelation so much as an expose of the lies told by the ama every day to protect the bigpharm's lies and profitmongering.

Sorry, but the NT testament only gives one restriction to what not to eat, and that is to things you know was offered to an idol.

Matthew 15:11
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

[h=1]Matthew 15:17-20
17 Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.20 These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”[/h]Romans 14:2
For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

[h=1]1 Corinthians 10:23-28
23All things are lawful for me,[a] but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me,[b] but not all things edify. 24 Let no one seek his own, but each one the other’s well-being.[/h]25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market, asking no questions for conscience’ sake; 26 for “the earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness.”[c]
27 If any of those who do not believe invites you to dinner, and you desire to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no question for conscience’ sake.28 But if anyone says to you, “This was offered to idols,” do not eat it for the sake of the one who told you, and for conscience’ sake;[d] for “the earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness.”[e]

1 Corinthians 8:8
But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.


[h=1]1 Timothy 4:2-5
2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgivingby those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.[/h]

 

[The_highwayman]

I paraphrased what the bible says, and you did not complete my quote, here it is in its whole:



my first part of what you quoted of me :



Matthew 5:17 (KJV)
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.


Next, the part you left out "

Ephesians 2:15 (KJV)
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

abolish (Thayer)
- Original: καταργέω
- Transliteration: Katargeo
- Phonetic: kat-arg-eh'-o
- Definition:
1. to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
a. to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
b. to deprive of force, influence, power
2. to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
a. to cease, to pass away, be done away
b. to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
c. to terminate all intercourse with one
- Origin: from G2596 and G691
- TDNT entry: 08:32,8
- Part(s) of speech: Verb

It is no longer in force.

The last part you quoted of me

Galatians 3:24-25 (KJV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

(schoolmaster) (Thayer)
Original: παιδαγωγός
- Transliteration: Paidagogos
- Phonetic: pahee-dag-o-gos'
- Definition:
1. a tutor i.e. a guardian and guide of boys.

Where did I lie?

Lastt iem jabber....

You initially stated:

The law was not destroyed, it was fulfilled, "abolished" meaning no longer under it, it is but a school master for our learning

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<you said the law was abolished by Christ, then said it is still a school master for our learning

I replied that Gal 3.23-25 says:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Then you said:

I said the same thing the bible said, we are no longer under the school master,

Sorry but you did nto state what the bible said you stated:

The law was not destroyed, it was fulfilled, "abolished" meaning no longer under it, it is but a school master for our learning

As I stated is this a typo? I read your above statement to mean that Christ fulfilled the law, YES HE DID...but then you go on to state we are no longer under it, ALSO CORRECT, but then you state it is a school master for OUR learning.

Either it is a typo or you are lying and talking out of both sides of your mouth.

 

[The_highwayman]

I think you may want to study more on what the Church of Christ believes before you say such things. It's funny that the things you and others say about the Church of Christ is nothing like what is taught within the church. I should know. I've attended the Church of Christ for 33 years.

you also brag non-stop that you are cessationist on certain aspects of the New Testament as it relates to the power and role of the Holy Spirit in the New testament Church Jesus started, so I stopped reading you months ago, because COC doctrine states if it is in the Bible we do it, but the COC believes in the doctrine of cessation of things that relate to the ministry of the Holy Spirit. I also do not hold your view that water baptism saves you and send you to heaven.

So are you a COC traditional or belong to one of the split factions of COC, the international Church of Christ or the Christian Church(Disciples of Christ)?

 

[Kaycie]

God was very specific about what instruments were to be used in the old testament, as well as in the new testament. In the new testament we are commanded to use the fruit of our lips (accapella singing). We are to make melody in our hearts to the Lord. In Matthew 28 it says Jesus now has all authority in heaven and on earth. We cannot do anything without His authority- including bringing old testament rules into the new testament. We need to rightly divide the word- this is old testament and this is new testament- we can't mix them together and obey both laws- that would be committing spiritual adultery (Romans 7:1-4).

Jesus, by His own authority, taught us by words and by action what we must do. Let's look at by action. Did Jesus get baptized to wash away His sins? No- cause He had no sin. So why then? Because we must take up our cross and follow Him- we must do what He does and say what He says to the best of our ability. When Jesus spoke His sermon on the mount was there a choir behind Him? No. When Jesus sang hymns with the apostles was there any mention of instruments? No. When the early church worshiped did they use instruments? No. How then, by your own authority, do you dare to make change to the church that Christ established? You can't say what the church is to do or not do- only Christ can. It's His church, I'm sure He knows what He's doing. When people change the rules Christ set by His own words and actions, you branch off and create a church that He didn't die for. And matching church doctrine to Christ's doctrine is how you identify the one true church of the bible.

One Lord, one faith (belief), one baptism.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Lastt iem jabber....

You initially stated:

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<you said the law was abolished by Christ, then said it is still a school master for our learning

I replied that Gal 3.23-25 says:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Then you said:


Sorry but you did nto state what the bible said you stated:



As I stated is this a typo? I read your above statement to mean that Christ fulfilled the law, YES HE DID...but then you go on to state we are no longer under it, ALSO CORRECT, but then you state it is a school master for OUR learning.

Either it is a typo or you are lying and talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Dude, Read verse 24, I "paraphrased" <--- maybe you should look that word up, the schoolmaster is for our learning, "tells us how we are brought to Christ", "schoolmaster" and learning are synonymous as I even gave you lexical proof, I also posted verse 25, that says we are no longer under it, verse 25 is enough to removed Davids music...

Now spend the rest of your time showing me where Jesus put it back in, in His new law or where the NT church used it?

 

[Jabberjaw]

2 Timothy 3:16
If it is Scripture, then it is not useless to us. What is the purpose of David's instruction to use instruments to worship God in the assembly, in application to the NT Church? (Useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and instructing)

Even the sacrificial laws have spiritual meaning for us. Why is it that this one topic of instruments is totally disposable?

Galatians 3:25 (KJV) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Psalms is scripture, it is as 2 Tim 3:16, but not all scripture are we 'under', since we are no longer 'under' the schoolmaster, we are not to obey David or his means of worship, we are to worship 'under' the law of Liberty, and you must show the NT contains IM in worship by command or use, and you will not find anything but "sing".

 

[Nautilus]

I can't believe this has reached 18 pages on such an unimportant topic. It's embarrassing really. This is what christianity has become in modern day america. Bickering over using instruments?

 

[Jabberjaw]

I can't believe this has reached 18 pages on such an unimportant topic. It's embarrassing really. This is what christianity has become in modern day america. Bickering over using instruments?

Who is bickering? All you need to do is show biblical support that the NT church used mechanical musical instrument and the "debate" is over, if this bothers you, or is annoying, perhaps that is why the operator of this forum allows you and others to create and use (go to) another thread.

 

[Nautilus]

Who is bickering? All you need to do is show biblical support that the NT church used mechanical musical instrument and the "debate" is over, if this bothers you, or is annoying, perhaps that is why the operator of this forum allows you and others to create and use (go to) another thread.

There isn't biblical support for christians using the internet, which contians far more evil than a guitar, yet here you are blabbering away. And hilariously you're argument of there isn't support is extremely weak because there isn't a command not too in there.

 

[Jabberjaw]

There isn't biblical support for christians using the internet, which contians far more evil than a guitar, yet here you are blabbering away. And hilariously you're argument of there isn't support is extremely weak because there isn't a command not too in there.

I don't worship my Lord with the internet. when the Lord said "sing" that excluded instruments.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I don't worship my Lord with the internet. when the Lord said "sing" that excluded instruments.

Again an argument from silence . . . doesn't say NOT to use musical instruments nor to USE musical instruments. Does "sing" carry with it the definition "sing with NO instruments"? I don't think so.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Again an argument from silence . . . doesn't say NOT to use musical instruments nor to USE musical instruments. Does "sing" carry with it the definition "sing with NO instruments"? I don't think so.

All you have to do is show the verse that authorizes mechanical instruments, if you add to the "sing" without authorization it is as Paul calls it "will worship" or "self imposed religion" :

Colossians 2:23 (KJV)
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Colossians 2:23 (NKJV)
23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Colossians 2:23 (ASV)
23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will-worship, and humility, and severity to the body; but are not of any value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Colossians 2:23 (NASB)
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

Colossians 2:23 (YLT)
23 which are, indeed, having a matter of wisdom in will-worship, and humble-mindedness, and neglecting of body--not in any honour, unto a satisfying of the flesh.