Music in Church?

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Ukorin

Guest
The church that Christ set up did not exist in the old testament.
The saints in the OT are in the Body of Christ along with us today. There is no separation.
The assembly is one.
There is only one hope and salvation, and that is in Christ.

God does not contradict Himself. God does not change what He deems as worship and glorifying to Himself.
He did clarify the Law as being spiritual and not letter,
and yet we make the NT become letter all over again? ... Why?
 

Jabberjaw

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2014
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Jabberjaw said:
The letter is to the saints (the church Col. 1:1-2), they are told to teach and admonish "one another" in psalms hymns and spiritual songs. Now if YOU are to conclude that this includes mechanical musical instruments, then you are saying Paul told the entire church at Colossea to play mechanical musical instruments, you're saying Paul told every one of the saints they must learn to play the instrument because the command is to "all"
Do you realize how illogical that statement is? I'm not saying that musical instruments are commanded.

If someone sings while playing a musical instrument, he sings doesn't he?

If someone sings without playing a musical instrument, he sings doesn't he?

Where do you get the idea of there being a command for everyone to play a musical instrument?
The command is to sing, you add to the command when you add instruments that are not authorized by the command...

The command is for all to teach and admonish "εαυτους" ->(each other) with "ψαλμοις" ->(psalms) "και" ->(and) "υμνοις" ->(hymns) "και" ->(and) "ωδαις πνευματικαις" ->(songs spiritual, or put in proper English, "spiritual songs")

The command was to the church in Colossea, it was to them all to do to εαυτους or each other...

Let's apply the same stilted approach to the issue of congregational singing versus solos. Where does this verse specify whether the teaching or adominishing here is to be done through solos or congregational singing? It's not clear. We see another verse, I Corinthians 14:26, which says 'every one of you hath a psalm' and to 'let all things be done unto edifying.'

One having a psalm is a solo. So solos are specifically allowed. Where is congregational singing allowed--- in New Testament scripture?
I am not even going to quote the rest of your post having to do with solo(s) as it is not in the text, it is a fabrication you have made...

Jabberjaw said:
but if you go by the bible, you would see the Greek word Psallo says to pluck or twang a string, yet does not define the stringed instrument, it must be defined by the context, it is the metaphorical heart that Paul used to define what is Psallow'd, the singing of all of them, singing from their book of psalms (hymnals) that would touch the heart making the heart feel as though it is being played like a stringed instrument...
Or we could conclude that etymology and the meaning of the word aren't always the exact samething. It's intereting that the etymology of the word translated 'psalm' is connected to musical instruments.
etymology shows the word to once have had the meaning of musical instruments, but by the time of the NT it had lost that meaning :

Let him sing praise (psalletō). Present active imperative of psallō, originally to twang a chord as on a harp, to sing praise to God whether with instrument or without, in N.T. only here, 1 Cor. 14:15; Romans 15:9; Ephes. 5:19. "Let him keep on making melody."


Word Pictures in the New Testament. (emphasis mine)

See Psallo used in Romans 15:9:

Romans 15:9 (KJV)
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

Phineas means snake's mouth. Are we going to make some big theological point out of that? Paul means short. Should that be the topic of a sermon? Reading into that passage the idea that the heart is what is strummed seems a bit of a stretch to say the least.
I have no idea where you find this snakes mouth stuff, or what it has to do with Psallo, but no matter what you twist the Greek or English to say, Psallo does not define the instrument, Paul said the instrument is the heart, where a instrument is not found in the text, it is translated simply "sing" (see Romans 15:9)

I got it right from the text. In I Corinthians 14:26, translator render 'each one' or 'every one'. The picture is of one person having their own psalm. If you have a specific verse authorizing congregational singing in the meeting, show it.
You're comparing the English to the English, what is rendered "each one" in 1 Cor 14:26 is "εκαστος" (Nominative Singular) the word in Col 3:16 is "εαυτους" (Third person plural) translated "one another" in the KJV

I will not address spiritual gifts here, it is off topic, they are done away, if you think not start another thread
 
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forsha

Guest
The saints in the OT are in the Body of Christ along with us today. There is no separation.
The assembly is one.
There is only one hope and salvation, and that is in Christ.

God does not contradict Himself. God does not change what He deems as worship and glorifying to Himself.
He did clarify the Law as being spiritual and not letter,
and yet we make the NT become letter all over again? ... Why?
How do we make the NT become letter all over again? Scripture please.
 
U

Ukorin

Guest
How do we make the NT become letter all over again? Scripture please.
A better question is "how do we follow the Spirit"?
To turn the NT into letter of the Law, all you have to do is try to physically follow it to a tee, interpreting it with a physical mind. That's where people get their particular physical baptism doctrines, and their physical communion doctrines (transubstantiation), and their physical worship doctrines, and their physical appearance doctrines, and their scholastic unity doctrines, and their scholastic hermeneutics, and their knowledge-based salvation doctrines, and their physically-based salvation doctrines, and their word-of-faith doctrines, and their snake-handling doctrines, and their "no marriage for clergy" doctrines, and the rest of the physically minded rules and teachings. (Not accusing you or anyone on this forum of all, or even any, of these. It was just a statement of what physically mindedness looks like.)

Obedience is an "inside out" transformation to the righteousness of Christ,
not an "outside in" conforming to a standard, which somewhat resembles the way the early Church lived.

God is not dead. He is very much alive and active. And so is His Word.
Christianity is not a set of rules and regulations, but a release from the bondage of them.
We fulfill all the regulations if we are living with love for our brethren, and in love for our God.
Rules for the sake of conformity... living in bondage to the letter of the Law.

The fruit of Salvation is what? Not playing music in Churches?
It is LOVE, JOY, PEACE, PATIENCE, KINDNESS, GOODNESS, FAITHFULNESS, GENTLENESS and SELF CONTROL.
Fruit is attributes, not specific works. That is where the Pharisees made the mistake, and it's still going on today.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,160
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The command is to sing, you add to the command when you add instruments that are not authorized by the command...

The command is for all to teach and admonish "εαυτους" ->(each other) with "ψαλμοις" ->(psalms) "και" ->(and) "υμνοις" ->(hymns) "και" ->(and) "ωδαις πνευματικαις" ->(songs spiritual, or put in proper English, "spiritual songs")

The issue is your assumption that everything has to be 'authorized by the command'--or at least the things that you have a problem with have to be authorized.

If you have one person preach a sermon every week, instead of 'every one of you' having a song, teaching, etc., then you don't think that has to be authorized, do you? Why do the things the other churches do have to be so specifically authorized. And why doesn't whether interpreting whether 'speak to one another' is in the form of solos or congregationally not have to be specifically authorized by some other verse?

It would seem your approach is that if it's in line with your tradition, it doesn't need authorization. If it isn't, it does.

The command was to the church in Colossea, it was to them all to do to εαυτους or each other...
That doesn't settle the issue, because each one singing a solo and all singing congregation are both examples of 'each other.' And where does the passage specify that this is done in the church meeting? I Corinthians 14:26 is clearly about when the church comes together. So if you want to take the rigid idea that every single action has to be specifically authorized, why not argue only for solos. Every one of you having a psalm is singing solos. If everyone does that, then people sing to 'one another'.

I'm not saying congregational singing is wrong. I'm just pointing out if you were consistent with your use of scripture, you would come to conclusions like this.

I am not even going to quote the rest of your post having to do with solo(s) as it is not in the text, it is a fabrication you have made...
It's right there in the text. If everyone has a song, then we are talking about one person singing a psalm. Look at the context that follows. One (tis) person speaks in tongues and one interprets.

etymology shows the word to once have had the meaning of musical instruments, but by the time of the NT it had lost that meaning :
Then why were you arguing that the verse is talking about twanging the instrument of the heart? If you don't believe the etymology is relevant, why argue that it is to argue your own point?

Let him sing praise
(psalletō). Present active imperative of psallō, originally to twang a chord as on a harp, to sing praise to God whether with instrument or without, in N.T. only here, 1 Cor. 14:15; Romans 15:9; Ephes. 5:19. "Let him keep on making melody."
This definition does not look sufficient resource for determining whether the idea of twanging was inherent in the word psallo in the first century. It would take a deeper word study, if you could find any conclusive evidence at all.


I have no idea where you find this snakes mouth stuff, or what it has to do with Psallo,
Look up Phineas in Hebrew. It's just an example of something weird people can come up with arguing off of etymology as you have done.

If the meaning of psallo was 'transparent' to Greek speakers, arguing that it has to do with instruments could be justified. Maybe.


but no matter what you twist the Greek or English to say, Psallo does not define the instrument,
I'm not twisting it. You are the one using etymology to argue your case, but arguing it isn't important when the issue is not in line with your opinion.

Paul said the instrument is the heart, where a instrument is not found in the text, it is translated simply "sing" (see Romans 15:9)
In the Old Testament, singing praise to instrumental accompaniment is still called singing. It is in English, too. In the New Testament 'sung' is also used to refer to singing with the sound of instruments as well.

Revelation 14[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:[SUP]3 [/SUP]And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

You're comparing the English to the English, what is rendered "each one" in 1 Cor 14:26 is "εκαστος" (Nominative Singular) the word in Col 3:16 is "εαυτους" (Third person plural) translated "one another" in the KJV
So what? Semantically, what is the difference? Colossians 3:!6 doesn't specify if all sing at the same time or if all do so in turn. In I Corinthians 14:26, it is clear that we have an individual in mind, wouldn't you agree?

I'm not against congregational singing if it is done unto edifying. If you were against solos in church, you would be specifically contradicting a verse about church meetings.

I will not address spiritual gifts here, it is off topic, they are done away, if you think not start another thread
So you don't believe in the gift of teaching, either? Do you think everyone is left to work without any grace from God to help them?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,777
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Praise ye Jah! For [it is] good to praise our God, For pleasant -- comely [is] praise.
(Psalm 147:1)

^
notice how in the Psalms, praising God is done because it is a good thing to do --- not because it is 'commanded' to do.

when we look at these songs for 'training in righteousness' we are not 'placing ourselves under the curse of the law' by doing the things that they instruct us are good to do -- we are seeking to do what is pleasing to God to do.

pretty big difference, which is the same pragmatic difference between a covenant of ordinances and a covenant of grace. the old man did works and looked for justification through them -- the new man is already justified and looks to do works as a result.


 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,670
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How many of the Psalms were addressed to The Chief Musician or such? Just wondering..........are not Psalms set to music?

If Psalms are set to music, how does one sing a Psalm without music?

seems logical to me............but, then, that's just me I suppose
 
S

Sirk

Guest
I seriously can't believe people argue about this. Jesus loves you whether you like guitars with your praise or not. I'm not gonna get sucked into this nonsense anymore.
 
U

Ukorin

Guest
How many of the Psalms were addressed to The Chief Musician or such? Just wondering..........are not Psalms set to music?

If Psalms are set to music, how does one sing a Psalm without music?

seems logical to me............but, then, that's just me I suppose
Those headings are part of the Psalms too, and part of Scripture, and inspired by God.

Their hermeneutic is the very reason that their denomination split:
one side saying that we should hold to the instruction of every Word of God, under the light of the NT,
the other side saying we should reject every instruction of the Word of God not given or affirmed in the NT.

This is the product of wrongly dividing the Word of Truth... They divide the Testimonies, which the Apostles said were both testimonies of Christ... both given by the same Spirit of Christ.
 
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forsha

Guest
The saints in the OT are in the Body of Christ along with us today. There is no separation.
The assembly is one.
There is only one hope and salvation, and that is in Christ.

God does not contradict Himself. God does not change what He deems as worship and glorifying to Himself.
He did clarify the Law as being spiritual and not letter,
and yet we make the NT become letter all over again? ... Why?
The word "church" is not found in the old testament at all, not one time. Matt 16:18, And I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock (the rock being Jesus) I will (future tense) build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Acts 2:47, and the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved(delivered from false doctrine). The word "church" is mentioned 77 times in the new testament. Luke 16:16, The law and the prophets were until John; since then the kingdom of God(the church) is preached, and every (elect) man presseth into it.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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yes. they weren't sharing. Paul rebuffed them and told them to share. i see nothing in the text indicating that the problem was that they were eating something other than a thin wafer and a few drops of wine.

...and this is why you are in error on using IM.

"And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me."

To you (and others) "this do" does not mean do as Jesus instructed but "this do' means do as YOU please.

No wonder the religious world in in the contradicting mess that it's in.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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do you ever do anything for God beyond the bare minimum absolute requirements?

If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles.
(Matthew 5:41)
I do all I am capable of doing, but my question that was not answered was do you worship as David in offering animal sacrifices, Psa 66:13,15? if not, why?
 
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forsha

Guest
A better question is "how do we follow the Spirit"?
To turn the NT into letter of the Law, all you have to do is try to physically follow it to a tee, interpreting it with a physical mind. That's where people get their particular physical baptism doctrines, and their physical communion doctrines (transubstantiation), and their physical worship doctrines, and their physical appearance doctrines, and their scholastic unity doctrines, and their scholastic hermeneutics, and their knowledge-based salvation doctrines, and their physically-based salvation doctrines, and their word-of-faith doctrines, and their snake-handling doctrines, and their "no marriage for clergy" doctrines, and the rest of the physically minded rules and teachings. (Not accusing you or anyone on this forum of all, or even any, of these. It was just a statement of what physically mindedness looks like.)

Obedience is an "inside out" transformation to the righteousness of Christ,
not an "outside in" conforming to a standard, which somewhat resembles the way the early Church lived.

God is not dead. He is very much alive and active. And so is His Word.
Christianity is not a set of rules and regulations, but a release from the bondage of them.
We fulfill all the regulations if we are living with love for our brethren, and in love for our God.
Rules for the sake of conformity... living in bondage to the letter of the Law.

The fruit of Salvation is what? Not playing music in Churches?
It is LOVE, JOY, PEACE, PATIENCE, KINDNESS, GOODNESS, FAITHFULNESS, GENTLENESS and SELF CONTROL.
Fruit is attributes, not specific works. That is where the Pharisees made the mistake, and it's still going on today.
In the new testament God gives many commandments to follow. They are instructions as to how the child of God is to live his life here on earth. All of us, do at times, disobey some of those commandments and results in our losing our fellowship with God until we repent. This does not mean that we lose our eternal salvation, only our fellowship.
 
F

forsha

Guest
A better question is "how do we follow the Spirit"?
To turn the NT into letter of the Law, all you have to do is try to physically follow it to a tee, interpreting it with a physical mind. That's where people get their particular physical baptism doctrines, and their physical communion doctrines (transubstantiation), and their physical worship doctrines, and their physical appearance doctrines, and their scholastic unity doctrines, and their scholastic hermeneutics, and their knowledge-based salvation doctrines, and their physically-based salvation doctrines, and their word-of-faith doctrines, and their snake-handling doctrines, and their "no marriage for clergy" doctrines, and the rest of the physically minded rules and teachings. (Not accusing you or anyone on this forum of all, or even any, of these. It was just a statement of what physically mindedness looks like.)

Obedience is an "inside out" transformation to the righteousness of Christ,
not an "outside in" conforming to a standard, which somewhat resembles the way the early Church lived.

God is not dead. He is very much alive and active. And so is His Word.
Christianity is not a set of rules and regulations, but a release from the bondage of them.
We fulfill all the regulations if we are living with love for our brethren, and in love for our God.
Rules for the sake of conformity... living in bondage to the letter of the Law.

The fruit of Salvation is what? Not playing music in Churches?
It is LOVE, JOY, PEACE, PATIENCE, KINDNESS, GOODNESS, FAITHFULNESS, GENTLENESS and SELF CONTROL.
Fruit is attributes, not specific works. That is where the Pharisees made the mistake, and it's still going on today.
Thanks so much for the SCRIPTURE REFERRENCES!!!!!!!
 
Mar 12, 2014
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you still haven't figured out that what David did was not following a law.
this "man after God's own heart" did more than what was required of him! it pleased God!

this is like trying to reason with a fish!

;)

You are refusing to acknowledge that in one goes back to the OT law to justify using IS, then he must keep the WHOLe law. You are cherry-picking out of the OT law what you lilke while ignoring what you so not like as Psa 66:13,15.

You refuse to acknowledge that Christ took ALL the OT out of the lway making it inactive, in effective, COl 2:14; Eph 2:15; Heb 10:9.

You are refusing to acknowledge that Paul said that for one who is a Christian and married to Christ and His NT gospel, it is sinful for him to also try and keep the OT law.

You refuse to acknowledge that keeping the OT does not make one a Christian nor that Christians are not to worship according to the OT law but NT law. There is NT authority is given for the Christian to worship God as David did in using IM, animals sacrifices, burning incense, etc.

When it comes to NT worship for the Christian, Paul said "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." Col 3:17. By word and deed means what the Christian teaches and practices is in the name of, or by authority of Christ. Christ never authorized Christians to use IM in worship, never authorized Christians to worship as the Law of Moses dictates, never authorized Christians to worship as David. The problem here is if "this do" to you does not mean you are to do as Christ said concerning the Lord's Supper, then what Christ authorized for NT Christians in how to worship will not mean anything to you either.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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that's an interesting point, because indeed, Christ saves us by grace, not works, undeserved, a free gift that is not of ourselves but of His mercy --- and we in return offer Him praise and honor in many ways that are not as a law to us, but as a sacrifice of gratitude and love.

:)

Jn 6:27 Christ said to work for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

Christ NEVER said do no works for you are saved by grace only.

You have plainly demonstrated by what you have said in your posts that when Christ says "this do" that means nothing.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,777
13,535
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I do all I am capable of doing, but my question that was not answered was do you worship as David in offering animal sacrifices, Psa 66:13,15? if not, why?
i answered you a month ago. go back and read page 4.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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Actually, the sin was making the Lord's Supper an uncommon meal. They were rebuked for eating all the food before the rest of the congregation had arrived. They were rebuked for selfishness.

The meal it to be commonly shared as a community... a communal meal...

It should be common, and should be every meal that we share with other Believers, not set aside for only Sabbaths.


In this same way, our worship in the Assembly is not set aside from our worship of God in all things.

Paul pointed out that there was heresies and division among them, 1 Cor 11:18,19 so when they came together it was not possible for them to take the Lord's Supper, verse 20. They could go through the act of taking the Lord's Supper and claim they were taking it, but with the divisions and heresies they could not be taking it as directed by Christ nor approved by Christ. Verse 21 Paul explains what they were eating was not the Lord's Supper, they were really just eating a common meal. V22, they have houses to eat their common meals in. Verse 23-29 Paul explains the right way the Lord's Supper is to be taken. And if it is not being done the right way with the right attitude, then all one is really doing is nothing more than making the Lord's Supper a common meal.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,777
13,535
113
Paul pointed out that there was heresies and division among them, 1 Cor 11:18,19 so when they came together it was not possible for them to take the Lord's Supper, verse 20. They could go through the act of taking the Lord's Supper and claim they were taking it, but with the divisions and heresies they could not be taking it as directed by Christ nor approved by Christ. Verse 21 Paul explains what they were eating was not the Lord's Supper, they were really just eating a common meal. V22, they have houses to eat their common meals in. Verse 23-29 Paul explains the right way the Lord's Supper is to be taken. And if it is not being done the right way with the right attitude, then all one is really doing is nothing more than making the Lord's Supper a common meal.


i'd like to hear your input on that subject in this thread --
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/106999-what-lords-supper.html

which i made a few days ago to keep this one from being derailed. thanks.

oh yes - and so as not to offend anyone who takes Colossians 3:16 and it's companion passage in Ephesians as literal, strict commands, i'd better adhere unwaveringly to the text and speak to you with a psalm (since it does not authorize speaking in anything other than songs and hymns):

Let them praise his name with dancing,
making melody to him with tambourine and lyre!
For the Lord takes pleasure in his people;
he adorns the humble with salvation.

(Psalm 149:3-4)