Must a Christian read the Ten Commandments to Know How God wants them to live?

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michael56

Banned
#681
Feb 5, 2015
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#681
The leaders of the Jews mishandled the law in the first place(Jeremiah 8:8) For they did not understand the true intent of it. God would consider it a persons righteousness to obey it, but none ever truly became righteous under the law for none perfectly kept it. The law is inflexible, there is no imaginary pass mark of obedience to it to be truly righteous before God. It is 100% perfect obedience or you fail full stop.

Christ's death at Calvary was for all who have lived on this earth, for none could attain Heaven by obedience to the law, they all relied on Christ's sacrifice at calvary ultimately to attain to Heaven
 
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gotime

Senior Member
#682
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
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#682
michael56 said:
The leaders of the Jews mishandled the law in the first place(Jeremiah 8:8) For they did not understand the true intent of it. God would consider it a persons righteousness to obey it, but none ever truly became righteous under the law for none perfectly kept it. The law is inflexible, there is no imaginary pass mark of obedience to it to be truly righteous before God. It is 100% perfect obedience or you fail full stop.

Christ's death at Calvary was for all who have lived on this earth, for none could attain Heaven by obedience to the law, they all relied on Christ's sacrifice at calvary ultimately to attain to Heaven
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See I agree that the law never made anyone perfect. and everyone new or old covenant were saved by faith in Jesus.

The Jews under the Old covenant did not know Jesus by name, but they still were saved only by Jesus the messiah to come if they did so by faith.

Obedience in the Old covenant is no different in the new. It is God who makes us holy and God who sanctifies us.
 
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gotime

Senior Member
#683
Mar 3, 2011
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#683
The could keep it God said they could. keeping the law perfectly is not what saves. it never was never will be. Keeping the law is the work of God in you both Jew and Gentile. Both new and Old Covenant.
 
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michael56

Banned
#684
Feb 5, 2015
1,852
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#684
gotime said:
Sometimes I think we are talking about two different things.

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It does seem from some of your comments lately we are not as far apart as at first we appeared, that is good :)

The real disagreement(to me anyway) appears to be, do we accept our sin cannot threaten our right standing with God if we are truly born again of the Spirit? If it can, the Christian cannot have a righteousness before God apart from the law. The only way you could try and reconcile the two is to say Christ died to wipe the slate clean at the point of conversion but after that you are under a law of righteousness in effect( what many actually believe) However, if that were true Paul's Gospel message must fall apart.

The more important question is. How can a Christian have right standing before God, not dependant on sin in their life but this does not result in them having a licence to sin? What are your thoughts?
 
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michael56

Banned
#685
Feb 5, 2015
1,852
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#685
gotime said:
The could keep it God said they could. keeping the law perfectly is not what saves. it never was never will be. Keeping the law is the work of God in you both Jew and Gentile. Both new and Old Covenant.
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This was the problem. I agree, the law could not save, but it would be considered their righteousness under the old covenant. Few then understand the truth, King David did. It is the same today under the new covenant, few it seems accept the truth. In effect they believe their right standing with God is dependant on observing the law. They might not think that is what they actually believe, but they do. Churches are full of people in the state Paul was in Rom ch 7, for they are trying to attain to Heaven as a Christian as he did as a Pharisee, they just do not see it.

Satan cannot convince these people Jesus did not die on the cross, so he does the next best thing, makes them in effect believe they are under a law of righteousness as a Christian.
 
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fredjames

Banned
#686
Feb 7, 2013
1,276
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#686
Mitspa said:
PeterJens said:
1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
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He that do not know in knowledge all the commandments of CHRIST written in the New Covenant and do not 'keep' them, first of all, do not love the words/teachings of the FATHER, SON and the HOLY SPIRIT, with all their heart, mind, soul and strength, therefore breaking the first and utmost commandments of JESUS given and they ignorantly all these years, unknowingly remain as the 'Grace and Truth haters' of their Heavenly parents,

And how then, can they love their siblings beside them, as their neighbor and well as their enemies and moreover do not know how many have they 'murdered' (know them according to CHRIST's standards about 'murder' written in the New Covenant)? That now truly furthering breaking the second and utmost commandments of CHRIST.

Meantime, they may 'shortsightedly' put on a 'hypocritical' show that for now in the name of 'men' improvised in church love, using 'picked' and 'choose' and to 'suite' their 'imperfection' Scriptures from the HOLY BIBLE.

But during the 'real' test and trials and attacks of wolves, these 'men' will abandon these 'deceived' lambs and sheep of GOD, to be 'butchered' by their enemies.

Who is the Grace and Truth New Covenant knowledge 'hater' and 'murderer', first of all?
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gotime

Senior Member
#687
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
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#687
michael56 said:
It does seem from some of your comments lately we are not as far apart as at first we appeared, that is good :)

The real disagreement(to me anyway) appears to be, do we accept our sin cannot threaten our right standing with God if we are truly born again of the Spirit? If it can, the Christian cannot have a righteousness before God apart from the law. The only way you could try and reconcile the two is to say Christ died to wipe the slate clean at the point of conversion but after that you are under a law of righteousness in effect( what many actually believe) However, if that were true Paul's Gospel message must fall apart.

The more important question is. How can a Christian have right standing before God, not dependant on sin in their life but this does not result in them having a licence to sin? What are your thoughts?
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Right standing before God is found in Jesus and what He has done. The christian gains it by putting His faith in what Jesus has done.

We come as sinners as that is the only way we can come. But through that faith God transforms us from faith to faith. When a person understands the horribleness of sin as seen on the cross and its results then they cling to Christ by faith and the Spirit changes and empowers that person to turn from sin unto righteousness.

It very much depends on our understanding or knowledge of Scripture though. we never become robots simply controlled by God. So then we must cooperate.


For example:

When Jesus commanded the cripple to get up and walk, the Cripple did not have the ability to do what was asked. But when by faith he acted in accordance to the command God supplied all the ability to preform the act.

So it is with christianity:

I know that sin is breaking Gods law and God say don't sin anymore/keep my law of love. So I don't just sit around waiting to be forced or become a robot but rather I determine/purpose in my heart to sin not knowing that within myself that is in my flesh is not good thing. So then I act on the command fully relying on Gods promise to preform that which he has commanded.

Thus I must cooperate with God. That is why God commands us things that for us are not possible, because in faith His commands are enabling s.
 
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fredjames

Banned
#688
Feb 7, 2013
1,276
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#688
Mitspa said:
john832 said:
Yea that why He said we have been delivered from the letter "legalism" and now serve God through the Spirit...which is faith and love.
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The 'Law of the letter', Apostle Paul is referring to is the 'Law given by Moses and not at all CHRIST's words/teachings.

In the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST, wake up you ignorant sleeping children, deceived by deception of 'men'!
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gotime

Senior Member
#689
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
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#689
michael56 said:
This was the problem. I agree, the law could not save, but it would be considered their righteousness under the old covenant. Few then understand the truth, King David did. It is the same today under the new covenant, few it seems accept the truth. In effect they believe their right standing with God is dependant on observing the law. They might not think that is what they actually believe, but they do. Churches are full of people in the state Paul was in Rom ch 7, for they are trying to attain to Heaven as a Christian as he did as a Pharisee, they just do not see it.

Satan cannot convince these people Jesus did not die on the cross, so he does the next best thing, makes them in effect believe they are under a law of righteousness as a Christian.
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That was the problem in the Old Covenant, The Jews did not enter it by faith and thus they tried by works. It was not meant to be so but they did not have faith so they never attained. I agree with you many are doing exactly that working at the law for salvation.

but the opposite is also true many down the law as if it were a bad thing saying and teaching not to keep it.

True faith acts in faith that God will supply. The Jew under the Old Covenant would have been able to keep it had they endeavored to do so in faith that God is the one who would make them Holy.
 
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michael56

Banned
#690
Feb 5, 2015
1,852
13
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#690
gotime said:
Right standing before God is found in Jesus and what He has done. The christian gains it by putting His faith in what Jesus has done.

We come as sinners as that is the only way we can come. But through that faith God transforms us from faith to faith. When a person understands the horribleness of sin as seen on the cross and its results then they cling to Christ by faith and the Spirit changes and empowers that person to turn from sin unto righteousness.

It very much depends on our understanding or knowledge of Scripture though. we never become robots simply controlled by God. So then we must cooperate.


For example:

When Jesus commanded the cripple to get up and walk, the Cripple did not have the ability to do what was asked. But when by faith he acted in accordance to the command God supplied all the ability to preform the act.

So it is with christianity:

I know that sin is breaking Gods law and God say don't sin anymore/keep my law of love. So I don't just sit around waiting to be forced or become a robot but rather I determine/purpose in my heart to sin not knowing that within myself that is in my flesh is not good thing. So then I act on the command fully relying on Gods promise to preform that which he has commanded.

Thus I must cooperate with God. That is why God commands us things that for us are not possible, because in faith His commands are enabling s.
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I'm not sure that answers the point raised. If we were pre-programmed robots we would always perfectly follow the manual, BUT WE ARE NOT. So we have to bear that in mind when putting forth theological opinions based on our understanding of the literal letter
 
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gotime

Senior Member
#691
Mar 3, 2011
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#691
I have no problem believing we can keep the law: why?

Because I know works of the law does not save and we can't do it anyway.

I also know that we are to cease from sin which is breaking the law.

So then when Jesus says to me go and sin no more, I don't go ok let me keep the law so I can be saved.

I don't go Lord don't you know that is impossible.

No I say Yes Lord and I go to obey believing that He who has commanded will supply all my needs that in all things HE will be glorified.
 
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gotime

Senior Member
#692
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
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#692
The Gospel is in the healing's of Jesus.

The works based doctrine is like a cripple who says I will walk first then I will come to Jesus. But is never able and never attains to wellness.

But many are the opposite, They come to Jesus and say they believe but they come away still crippled and deceive themselves.

But the true are those who come to Jesus in faith and walk away whole and able to do what the former two could not.
 
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gotime

Senior Member
#693
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
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#693
See I think the danger here is trying to find a way in which the Christian can feel secure while still in sin. The reality is they are not secure while still in sin. There is a process in which people are converted and most churches today have made conversion a simple prayer and your in.

That is not what scripture teaches.
 
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michael56

Banned
#694
Feb 5, 2015
1,852
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#694
gotime said:
See I think the danger here is trying to find a way in which the Christian can feel secure while still in sin. The reality is they are not secure while still in sin. There is a process in which people are converted and most churches today have made conversion a simple prayer and your in.

That is not what scripture teaches.
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This is the point that causes many to stumble with the truth of the new covenant(I am not saying you do)

In its correct sense, the Christian MUST feel secure with God while still a sinner. It is in that knowledge the power of grace brings much change in their life. If a Christian is not secure with Jesus while they are still a sinner, they must live under a righteousness of obedience to the law.

By simply reading your sentence as written, it sounds absolutely correct, a Christian cannot have a casual attitude to sin and simply wallow in it believing they are fine because they are not under a law of righteousness. But this is negating the work of the Holy Spirit in the converts life at the point of conversion, they have been born again. It is this fact, and this fact alone that removes the licence to sin. It is what many are failing to grasp. The truly born again Christian, CANNOT have a half hearted attitude to sin. It is not possible
It is strange, but if you ask a Christian what the core of the new covenant is, they will tell you Jesus died for your sins. But in reality, so many ignore that point in their life and live under the other core component of the new covenant alone. You need both, to see the power of grace in your life
 
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gotime

Senior Member
#695
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
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#695
I speak here of course about willful sin, premeditated sin. I know there is a growth into the fullness of Christ.

Salvation is only secured for the one who has ceased any rebellion to God through the working of the Holy Spirit.
 
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michael56

Banned
#696
Feb 5, 2015
1,852
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#696
gotime said:
I speak here of course about willful sin, premeditated sin. I know there is a growth into the fullness of Christ.

Salvation is only secured for the one who has ceased any rebellion to God through the working of the Holy Spirit.
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This is a most important point, there is a great difference between wilfull, deliberate sin, and sin committed that is not wilfull but committed simply becaue we are not perfect in the flesh. I think Hebrews reminds us of the yearly sacrifice for ''unintentional sins''(or sins committed in ignorance). For me, we are a work in progress all our lives, but wifull, deliberate sin robs us of that progress.
 
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michael56

Banned
#697
Feb 5, 2015
1,852
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#697
gotime said:
I speak here of course about willful sin, premeditated sin. I know there is a growth into the fullness of Christ.

Salvation is only secured for the one who has ceased any rebellion to God through the working of the Holy Spirit.
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Take an alcoholic as an example, he has had his addiction for thirty years. For some, there is immediate release from the addiction, for others it takes time standing by faith in Christ. During this time the alcoholic hates the fact he is still drinking for he has been born again. This is not wilful, deliberate sin for he earnestly seeks victory over his addiction. . However, he will be freed by following the true path of the Gospel message. Once he has been freed from his addiction, if he gets bored one night, goes to the pub and gets drunk, that is very different from when he was drinking but earnestly seeking victory over his addiction by faith in Christ
 
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fredjames

Banned
#698
Feb 7, 2013
1,276
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#698
Mitspa said:
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
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According to JESUS's words/teachings and please quote Scripture as well to support, what the HOLY SPIRIT who dwell in us does for us?
 
PeterJens

PeterJens

Banned
#699
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
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#699
royalscot said:
first prove they are distorted.
simple is seeing act 15 is saying its a different law to the law of moses. so how can i be judged by this law if it was never given to me.

no gentile is under law of moses.

and if jesus has saved me , when would i look at law

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:

crawl back under law of moses if you want. gal 3 v1 already told why god works miracles among christians



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You have made a fundemental mistake. The basis of sin is taking what you want to the hurt or harm or another. It is the short cut, the putting of desire above respect and need. In simple terms integrity, speaking the truth, not stealing, honoring marriage, not murdering etc. Now you could call these principles law or you could call them how you love and respect others.

If you break these principles you no longer have love or never did. The principle of salvation and the kingdom is to build a kingdom of people who love from the heart, and walk in the Holy Spirit. Your opposition and continual denial of morality suggests to me condemnation of sin on your conscience. The Lord convicts not by rules but by telling you and showing you the hurt and harm you have brought to others, so you learn repentance, forgiveness and walk in love.

Your language seems to want to deny these basic principles of life and relationships. Or are you now claiming you walk without sin, you do not fail because there is nothing left to say you fail. The problem with this position is it is insane, psychopathic and without care, which is the exact opposite of love which the Lord brings.

What you end up with is a happy bunch of sinners who continue sinning while claiming they know the Lord. You may as well claim the Lord does not exist and you can do whatever you like......

The problem is as the apostles wrote
"Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry." col 3:5
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” rev 21:8

The core of the faith is righteousness, purity, perfection - as Jesus said "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect" matt 5:48

Some in the faith movement have called a spirit of religion, which emphasis legalism. The truth is you stand against John the Baptist "Repent and believe for the Kingdom of God is here"
You stand against Jesus and the Apostles,
"Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus." Acts 3:19-20

Now I know of only one spirit who would talk against repentance, and it is not the Holy Spirit. This position is also not of Jesus or of christian tradition. So I call you to repentance, to confess your sins, for he is faithful and just and will forgive your sins if you believe on Jesus.
 
PeterJens

PeterJens

Banned
#700
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
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#700
michael56 said:
Take an alcoholic as an example, he has had his addiction for thirty years. For some, there is immediate release from the addiction, for others it takes time standing by faith in Christ. During this time the alcoholic hates the fact he is still drinking for he has been born again. This is not wilful, deliberate sin for he earnestly seeks victory over his addiction. . However, he will be freed by following the true path of the Gospel message. Once he has been freed from his addiction, if he gets bored one night, goes to the pub and gets drunk, that is very different from when he was drinking but earnestly seeking victory over his addiction by faith in Christ
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It reads like you have a sound understanding of faith and are wanting to examine the issue of decipleship, or the walk to maturity and the failures along the way.

It also appears there are some here who actually have abandoned defining what sin is. This is what worries me about some Word of Faith groups, they are not actually christian any more.
 
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