Must a Christian read the Ten Commandments to Know How God wants them to live?

[GandalfTheWhite]

Paul makes clear to what law he is speaking...

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

I understand, but is this relevant to every time Paul is speaking about the law?

 

[Mitspa]

I understand, but is this relevant to every time Paul is speaking about the law?

Sure there is only one law...and it is a complete whole. "every jot and tittle"...all things written in the book of the law

So when Paul talks about the law...he is clearly talking about all the law of Moses.

 

[Grandpa]

read the words carefully,

om 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The law of sin is the opposite of the law of God/Spirit.

it does not say you are free from obeying the law but that you are free from the law of sin. SO what is the law of Sin according to Paul?

Rom_7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. .

I had not known sin but by the law. Then he describes what the law says. And why it is the law of sin. Because that is all it can do. It can only show sin.

Then he describes it as the law of death in 2 Corinthians.

2 Corinthians 3:7-8
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

Just in case you are still fuzzy on what the law of sin and death is Paul tells you it was engraved on stones. That narrows it way down... Its not ceremonial, its not the law of sacrifices, its not the law of temples or whatever else you make up. Its the 10 commandments written on stone.

Then for further clarification;

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

If you are working at the law in your own understanding and strength you are voluntarily placing yourself under the curse. Even though you know that in the Lord Jesus Christ is your one and only source of all blessing.

I don't have any more need or desire of the curse. I had enough.

I just want the blessing. I want the Lord Jesus Christ. Have you heard the good news that He frees us from the law of sin and death (and your curse)?

 

[gotime]

I had not known sin but by the law. Then he describes what the law says. And why it is the law of sin. Because that is all it can do. It can only show sin.

Then he describes it as the law of death in 2 Corinthians.

2 Corinthians 3:7-8
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

Just in case you are still fuzzy on what the law of sin and death is Paul tells you it was engraved on stones. That narrows it way down... Its not ceremonial, its not the law of sacrifices, its not the law of temples or whatever else you make up. Its the 10 commandments written on stone.

Then for further clarification;

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

If you are working at the law in your own understanding and strength you are voluntarily placing yourself under the curse. Even though you know that in the Lord Jesus Christ is your one and only source of all blessing.

I don't have any more need or desire of the curse. I had enough.

I just want the blessing. I want the Lord Jesus Christ. Have you heard the good news that He frees us from the law of sin and death (and your curse)?

First I would like to say that I have a lot of respect for you guys, Mitspa, Michael56 and you and others.

One of the reasons I keep going in this circle is not so much to simply argue but I am trying to see for myself where it is that we differ.

For instance I don't know if you have noticed this but we have all at times said things that we can all agree on. I sometimes wonder if our disagreements are more over the way we word things than what we actually believe and practice.

For example: When I first came on this chat sites years ago, I had a hard time with you guys and your faith talk. Not because faith is bad but I felt that when you put down the law that you were saying its OK for a christian to keep sinning.

I have learned since, that is not what yo are saying.

But I am afraid that you may be making the same mistake I was making.

Correct me If I am wrong but when you here us saying keep the law you think we mean salvation comes through the law?

Because that is not what I mean at all. That is why you can keep posting scripture on the law not being for righteousness and the law being a schoolmaster and it does not phase me a bit, cause I know those things and believe those things.

So where are we really clashing?

Let me point something out that I see.

There are two types of people who say keep the law and there are two main types of people who say don't.

KEEP THE LAW

1. we must keep the law (in our own strength) to be saved.
2. we keep the law (by faith in the transforming power of Jesus) because we are saved.

Law is Gone

1. The law is done away with. (sin is ok if you have faith)
2. The law is done away with because the better law has come. (Faith in Jesus to transform us)

The 2's in this I find to actually be pretty much the same thing but form a different angle. the 1's are polar opposite.

Just some thoughts.

Can I just say this, I do believe the 10 commandments are part of the new covenant, but I do not believe that we are saved by commandments.

Some have asked how do you divide the law? well in one sense I don't the Old Covenant as a whole is done away with by the New.

The difference is The new has some aspects of the Old because the Old had some aspects of the new. They are different contracts based on the same promise. And thus being that the promise is the same the two contracts have the same point and the same DNA.

Sin in the Old Covenant is the same as sin in the New covenant. Sin has always been sin even before the law was given. So I expect the that this will remain the same in both Old and New covenant.

Salvation through blood is always the only way and so I expect blood to be part of salvation but under the old it was animals which could not save from sin. but under the new its the blood of Jesus Christ.

Priests to intercede on our behalf and to cleanse us are in both but in the old it was human priests who needed salvation themselves but in the new our perfect High priest offering His own blood.

and so on.

 

[michael56]

First I would like to say that I have a lot of respect for you guys, Mitspa, Michael56 and you and others.

One of the reasons I keep going in this circle is not so much to simply argue but I am trying to see for myself where it is that we differ.

For instance I don't know if you have noticed this but we have all at times said things that we can all agree on. I sometimes wonder if our disagreements are more over the way we word things than what we actually believe and practice.

For example: When I first came on this chat sites years ago, I had a hard time with you guys and your faith talk. Not because faith is bad but I felt that when you put down the law that you were saying its OK for a christian to keep sinning.

I have learned since, that is not what yo are saying.

But I am afraid that you may be making the same mistake I was making.

Correct me If I am wrong but when you here us saying keep the law you think we mean salvation comes through the law?

Because that is not what I mean at all. That is why you can keep posting scripture on the law not being for righteousness and the law being a schoolmaster and it does not phase me a bit, cause I know those things and believe those things.

So where are we really clashing?

Let me point something out that I see.

There are two types of people who say keep the law and there are two main types of people who say don't.

KEEP THE LAW

1. we must keep the law (in our own strength) to be saved.
2. we keep the law (by faith in the transforming power of Jesus) because we are saved.

Law is Gone

1. The law is done away with. (sin is ok if you have faith)
2. The law is done away with because the better law has come. (Faith in Jesus to transform us)

The 2's in this I find to actually be pretty much the same thing but form a different angle. the 1's are polar opposite.

Just some thoughts.

Can I just say this, I do believe the 10 commandments are part of the new covenant, but I do not believe that we are saved by commandments.

Some have asked how do you divide the law? well in one sense I don't the Old Covenant as a whole is done away with by the New.

The difference is The new has some aspects of the Old because the Old had some aspects of the new. They are different contracts based on the same promise. And thus being that the promise is the same the two contracts have the same point and the same DNA.

Sin in the Old Covenant is the same as sin in the New covenant. Sin has always been sin even before the law was given. So I expect the that this will remain the same in both Old and New covenant.

Salvation through blood is always the only way and so I expect blood to be part of salvation but under the old it was animals which could not save from sin. but under the new its the blood of Jesus Christ.

Priests to intercede on our behalf and to cleanse us are in both but in the old it was human priests who needed salvation themselves but in the new our perfect High priest offering His own blood.

and so on.

It is nice to read what you have written

Can I ask you? Did Jesus die to wipe the slate clean at the point of conversion, or did he die for all your sins? That I think maybe the fundamental difference.

In my view, the penalty of sin has been removed from the Christian but the law God desires a person to keep has been transferred from tablets of stone to tablets of human hearts

Therefore the penalty attached to the law if you break it has gone, but not the law itself God wants you to follow

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Sure there is only one law...and it is a complete whole. "every jot and tittle"...all things written in the book of the law

So when Paul talks about the law...he is clearly talking about all the law of Moses.

I can now see your confusion, because you don't understand that Paul was a Jew with two contradicting set of laws (Torah and Talmud). Go and read about it and you will understand.

 

[gotime]

It is nice to read what you have written

Can I ask you? Did Jesus die to wipe the slate clean at the point of conversion, or did he die for all your sins? That I think maybe the fundamental difference.

In my view, the penalty of sin has been removed from the Christian but the law God desires a person to keep has been transferred from tablets of stone to tablets of human hearts

Therefore the penalty attached to the law if you break it has gone, but not the law itself God wants you to follow

you asked "Did Jesus die to wipe the slate clean at the point of conversion, or did he die for all your sins?"

Yes I believe that when we accept Jesus and Accept that He died in my place that all my sins are paid for. He became a curse for me. That is why I can be Justified, declared righteous before I actually become righteous.

However I should say also that I believe conversion is not simply accepting Jesus death/savior but also his resurrection/Lord of my life.

I agree with your statement that the law on stone is transferred to the heart by way of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit through faith in the resurrected Jesus.

The last statement I do not fully agree with namely "Therefore the penalty attached to the law if you break it has gone"

I believe this to be so if one is truly converted/ born of water and the spirit. but if one is not converted then one is still under the law.

Many speak of those who are of works still being under the law and they are right but I believe that a lack of faith in what Jesus has done at the cross and His Resurrection also puts you under the law.

Eg I can accept Jesus death for me but If I do not receive the Spirit and accept Jesus as Lord of my life then I am still under law.

Hope that makes sense. By the way that is why I keep the Sabbath because that same law is on my heart. Its not a legalistic thing.

I keep it because It holds massive spiritual blessing for me. It is a gift to me by the Lord of the Sabbath who made it for me way back at creation.

 

[fredjames]

I hope you realise the gravity of making such a statement as that. The Pharisees said Jesus cast out demons because he was possessed by Beelzebub, they did not acknowledge Jesus was casting out demons by the power of the Holy Spirit. This was his response:
And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come

Matt12:31&32

i am not speaking against the HOLY SPIRIT introduced through the knowledge of the New Covenant, You do not even 'testify' the HOLY SPIRIT given to us according to the New Covenant, because you do not 'abide' in the words/teachings of LORD JESUS CHRIST of the New Covenant for you are not under HIS given 'Law of Liberty' to 'live liberated in their practices' and 'witness' to others and 'persevere' 'tribulations' and 'persecutions'.

Though you may 'posses' the 'gifts' of the HOLY SPIRIT from the beginning received 'by Grace through faith' as a 'gift' of GOD. You may 'excel' and be 'busy' having these 'gifts' and build churches for CHRIST and GOD, but if anyone do not 'abide' in the words/teachings of CHRIST written in the New Covenant, as to 'confirm' are those who actually 'keep' HIS 'commandments' in 'abiding', are continuing in 'lawlessness' against the New Covenant of GOD.

In the beginning of the Gospel, JESUS already 'proclaimed' about their fate, written in Matthew chapter 7;21-23.

They even called HIM, 'LORD, LORD' and 'bragged' their ministry labor for HIM, in HIS name and they had the 'gifts' of the HOLY SPIRIT and they could 'preach' to all nations, kindred and tongues, and they 'performed miracles' and they even 'performed mighty works'.

And JESUS said this;

"And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you', depart from me, you 'workers of lawlessness' "

Though any believer may posses the 'gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT', but if they do not 'abide' in the words/teachings of CHRIST, written in the New Covenant, made by GOD with HIS redeemed people from 'sin and death', are actually 'practitioners of lawlessness'.

Anti-CHRIST is called the 'lawless one', and he will be against every words/teachings of CHRIST written in the New Covenant which exposes him and his servants and people of this world who live according to it's 'passions' and 'desires' of carnality/flesh. And he is not 'appeared yet', but his 'spirit of anti-CHRIST' is already here from the time of the 'Apostles and it is in you and your friends, who oppose CHRIST of the written New Covenant as well, from the beginning in this 'discussion' with us.

You must not be in ignorant that one of the 'gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT' that 'some' believers 'posses' is 'the ability to distinguish between spirits'.

"And so spirit of anti-CHRIST, look at My words, you have been exposed by the Word/CHRIST of GOD of the New Covenant made with HIS people. I command you in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST leave the Temple of the Living GOD now!

 

[michael56]

i am not speaking against the HOLY SPIRIT introduced through the knowledge of the New Covenant, You do not even 'testify' the HOLY SPIRIT given to us according to the New Covenant, because you do not 'abide' in the words/teachings of LORD JESUS CHRIST of the New Covenant for you are not under HIS given 'Law of Liberty' to 'live liberated in their practices' and 'witness' to others and 'persevere' 'tribulations' and 'persecutions'.

Though you may 'posses' the 'gifts' of the HOLY SPIRIT from the beginning received 'by Grace through faith' as a 'gift' of GOD. You may 'excel' and be 'busy' having these 'gifts' and build churches for CHRIST and GOD, but if anyone do not 'abide' in the words/teachings of CHRIST written in the New Covenant, as to 'confirm' are those who actually 'keep' HIS 'commandments' in 'abiding', are continuing in 'lawlessness' against the New Covenant of GOD.

In the beginning of the Gospel, JESUS already 'proclaimed' about their fate, written in Matthew chapter 7;21-23.

They even called HIM, 'LORD, LORD' and 'bragged' their ministry labor for HIM, in HIS name and they had the 'gifts' of the HOLY SPIRIT and they could 'preach' to all nations, kindred and tongues, and they 'performed miracles' and they even 'performed mighty works'.

And JESUS said this;

"And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you', depart from me, you 'workers of lawlessness' "

Though any believer may posses the 'gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT', but if they do not 'abide' in the words/teachings of CHRIST, written in the New Covenant, made by GOD with HIS redeemed people from 'sin and death', are actually 'practitioners of lawlessness'.

Anti-CHRIST is called the 'lawless one', and he will be against every words/teachings of CHRIST written in the New Covenant which exposes him and his servants and people of this world who live according to it's 'passions' and 'desires' of carnality/flesh. And he is not 'appeared yet', but his 'spirit of anti-CHRIST' is already here from the time of the 'Apostles and it is in you and your friends, who oppose CHRIST of the written New Covenant as well, from the beginning in this 'discussion' with us.

You must not be in ignorant that one of the 'gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT' that 'some' believers 'posses' is 'the ability to distinguish between spirits'.

"And so spirit of anti-CHRIST, look at My words, you have been exposed by the Word/CHRIST of GOD of the New Covenant made with HIS people. I command you in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST leave the Temple of the Living GOD now!

Seriously, you need help. I hope you will find it

 

[fredjames]

Jesus describes the sin against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable. The pharisees where quickly going from saying Jesus blasphemed, a man claiming equality with God, which would have been true, if he was not the Messiah, to saying the healings and miracles were done by the Satan. It is clear they simply were not interested in love, and grace, in walking into the Kingdom.

As you are using similar language to them, how interested are you in the Kingdom? I would suggest you have a serious psychological problem, and have latched on to an obscure version of the Gods law and salvation, and call people who disagree with you of the anti-Christ. I do not think this qualifies, as you are nuts....

i suggest for your own safety dearly beloved, in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST stay out of this.

Thank you, GOD bless you in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST, you have already had your 'say'.

 

[michael56]

i am not speaking against the HOLY SPIRIT introduced through the knowledge of the New Covenant, You do not even 'testify' the HOLY SPIRIT given to us according to the New Covenant, because you do not 'abide' in the words/teachings of LORD JESUS CHRIST of the New Covenant for you are not under HIS given 'Law of Liberty' to 'live liberated in their practices' and 'witness' to others and 'persevere' 'tribulations' and 'persecutions'.

Though you may 'posses' the 'gifts' of the HOLY SPIRIT from the beginning received 'by Grace through faith' as a 'gift' of GOD. You may 'excel' and be 'busy' having these 'gifts' and build churches for CHRIST and GOD, but if anyone do not 'abide' in the words/teachings of CHRIST written in the New Covenant, as to 'confirm' are those who actually 'keep' HIS 'commandments' in 'abiding', are continuing in 'lawlessness' against the New Covenant of GOD.

In the beginning of the Gospel, JESUS already 'proclaimed' about their fate, written in Matthew chapter 7;21-23.

They even called HIM, 'LORD, LORD' and 'bragged' their ministry labor for HIM, in HIS name and they had the 'gifts' of the HOLY SPIRIT and they could 'preach' to all nations, kindred and tongues, and they 'performed miracles' and they even 'performed mighty works'.

And JESUS said this;

"And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you', depart from me, you 'workers of lawlessness' "

Though any believer may posses the 'gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT', but if they do not 'abide' in the words/teachings of CHRIST, written in the New Covenant, made by GOD with HIS redeemed people from 'sin and death', are actually 'practitioners of lawlessness'.

Anti-CHRIST is called the 'lawless one', and he will be against every words/teachings of CHRIST written in the New Covenant which exposes him and his servants and people of this world who live according to it's 'passions' and 'desires' of carnality/flesh. And he is not 'appeared yet', but his 'spirit of anti-CHRIST' is already here from the time of the 'Apostles and it is in you and your friends, who oppose CHRIST of the written New Covenant as well, from the beginning in this 'discussion' with us.

You must not be in ignorant that one of the 'gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT' that 'some' believers 'posses' is 'the ability to distinguish between spirits'.

"And so spirit of anti-CHRIST, look at My words, you have been exposed by the Word/CHRIST of GOD of the New Covenant made with HIS people. I command you in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST leave the Temple of the Living GOD now!

It is enough for students to be like their teachers, and servants like their masters. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household! Matt10:25

 

[fredjames]

You mean like this?

Ga 3:1 ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

As it is written;

"Faith comes from hearing and hearing the Word(CHRIST) of GOD."

These 'hypocrites' proclaim they are not under the 'Law' of the 'written Holy Scriptures' but the law written in their hearts, and yet they use the same 'written Holy Scripture Laws' to answer us back. Even 'satan' who completely oppose the Word/Law of GOD 'from the beginning', he is also able to use the same written Word/Law of GOD that was given to Prophet Isaiah about the coming MESSIAH, on JESUS, in order to tempt HIM in the desert.

Didn't JESUS immediately recognize the 'disguiser' (even though only his voice) and immediately responded using the same Word/Law of GOD in 'defence', not to give in nor fall into 'deceit'.

And any Grace and Truth taught from the New Covenant as lambs and sheep of the Living GOD, can notice and experience the quite similar account, even the ones, JESUS had with the 'Pharisees'.

As it is written about them who were also in the early churches, during the Apostle's time and not surprising even now, that;

"Even satan disguises himself as an angel of Light, and it is not surprising that his servants disguises themselves as servants of righteousness."

 

[michael56]

you asked "Did Jesus die to wipe the slate clean at the point of conversion, or did he die for all your sins?"

Yes I believe that when we accept Jesus and Accept that He died in my place that all my sins are paid for. He became a curse for me. That is why I can be Justified, declared righteous before I actually become righteous.

How will you become righteous? Paul states our righteousness is faith from first to last, it doesn't change(Rom 1:17)

However I should say also that I believe conversion is not simply accepting Jesus death/savior but also his resurrection/Lord of my life.

Agreed, but although we accept Christ as Lord of our life that does not mean we perfectly obey
I agree with your statement that the law on stone is transferred to the heart by way of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit through faith in the resurrected Jesus.

In Pentecostal terms, the Holy Spirit dwelling in you and Baptism of the Holy Spirit are two different things. I won't go into it here. But in every Pentecostal church I have been to they accept you are saved at the poinit of conversion, but the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate occurence

The last statement I do not fully agree with namely "Therefore the penalty attached to the law if you break it has gone"

I believe this to be so if one is truly converted/ born of water and the spirit. but if one is not converted then one is still under the law.

I assumed you knew I was speaking of a saved person, not unsaved

Many speak of those who are of works still being under the law and they are right but I believe that a lack of faith in what Jesus has done at the cross and His Resurrection also puts you under the law.

That doesn't make sense. If you are given the faith to believe(it is a free gift) you are saved if you repent. To suggest you can go in and out of grace and under the law depending on if you have a certain standard of faith is something I have never heard of before. How much faith do you need, what is the standard to remain in grace and not be under the law? That isn't written in my bible

Eg I can accept Jesus death for me but If I do not receive the Spirit and accept Jesus as Lord of my life then I am still under law.

If you ask Christ into your life as Lord and Saviour the Holy Spirit immediately enters your life, it is automatic. The definition of a Christian is someone in whom the Holy Spirit resides.

Hope that makes sense. By the way that is why I keep the Sabbath because that same law is on my heart. Its not a legalistic thing.

Here is the problem the sda church cannot face, for to them, they are defined according to worshipping on a Saturday. Keeping Saturday Sabbath is not a law that has been written on my mind or placed on my heart. If it was I MUST be convicted I am sinning by7 not observing it, there is no way round that. Therefore, do you believe the Holy Spirit writes different laws on different Gentiles hearts at the point of conversion? Or do you believe only those who observe Saturday Sabbath are saved?
I keep it because It holds massive spiritual blessing for me. It is a gift to me by the Lord of the Sabbath who made it for me way back at creation.

If it means a lot to you to go to church on a Saturday, wonderful.

Answers above

 

[Mitspa]

As it is written;

"Faith comes from hearing and hearing the Word(CHRIST) of GOD."

These 'hypocrites' proclaim they are not under the 'Law' of the 'written Holy Scriptures' but the law written in their hearts, and yet they use the same 'written Holy Scripture Laws' to answer us back. Even 'satan' who completely oppose the Word/Law of GOD 'from the beginning', he is also able to use the same written Word/Law of GOD that was given to Prophet Isaiah about the coming MESSIAH, on JESUS, in order to tempt HIM in the desert.

Didn't JESUS immediately recognize the 'disguiser' (even though only his voice) and immediately responded using the same Word/Law of GOD in 'defence', not to give in nor fall into 'deceit'.

And any Grace and Truth taught from the New Covenant as lambs and sheep of the Living GOD, can notice and experience the quite similar account, even the ones, JESUS had with the 'Pharisees'.

As it is written about them who were also in the early churches, during the Apostle's time and not surprising even now, that;

"Even satan disguises himself as an angel of Light, and it is not surprising that his servants disguises themselves as servants of righteousness."

Actually the scripture reads "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the rhema of Christ"

And what is also made clear is that the law is not of faith.
And legalism is a false righteousness that satan uses to pervert the true gospel of grace.

Ga 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

 

[Mitspa]

I can now see your confusion, because you don't understand that Paul was a Jew with two contradicting set of laws (Torah and Talmud). Go and read about it and you will understand.

No Paul made absolute and clear what law he was speaking about....

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

 

[michael56]

No Paul made absolute and clear what law he was speaking about....

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Exactly:
But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. [SUP]10 [/SUP]I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. Rom 7:8-11

For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[SUP][a][/SUP] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. Rom 7:5

The message is, sin through knowledge of the law makes you a worse sinner if you live under a law of righteousness

 

[Grandpa]

First I would like to say that I have a lot of respect for you guys, Mitspa, Michael56 and you and others.

One of the reasons I keep going in this circle is not so much to simply argue but I am trying to see for myself where it is that we differ.

For instance I don't know if you have noticed this but we have all at times said things that we can all agree on. I sometimes wonder if our disagreements are more over the way we word things than what we actually believe and practice.

For example: When I first came on this chat sites years ago, I had a hard time with you guys and your faith talk. Not because faith is bad but I felt that when you put down the law that you were saying its OK for a christian to keep sinning.

I have learned since, that is not what yo are saying.

But I am afraid that you may be making the same mistake I was making.

Correct me If I am wrong but when you here us saying keep the law you think we mean salvation comes through the law?

Because that is not what I mean at all. That is why you can keep posting scripture on the law not being for righteousness and the law being a schoolmaster and it does not phase me a bit, cause I know those things and believe those things.

So where are we really clashing?

Let me point something out that I see.

There are two types of people who say keep the law and there are two main types of people who say don't.

KEEP THE LAW

1. we must keep the law (in our own strength) to be saved.
2. we keep the law (by faith in the transforming power of Jesus) because we are saved.

Law is Gone

1. The law is done away with. (sin is ok if you have faith)
2. The law is done away with because the better law has come. (Faith in Jesus to transform us)

The 2's in this I find to actually be pretty much the same thing but form a different angle. the 1's are polar opposite.

Just some thoughts.

Can I just say this, I do believe the 10 commandments are part of the new covenant, but I do not believe that we are saved by commandments.

Some have asked how do you divide the law? well in one sense I don't the Old Covenant as a whole is done away with by the New.

The difference is The new has some aspects of the Old because the Old had some aspects of the new. They are different contracts based on the same promise. And thus being that the promise is the same the two contracts have the same point and the same DNA.

Sin in the Old Covenant is the same as sin in the New covenant. Sin has always been sin even before the law was given. So I expect the that this will remain the same in both Old and New covenant.

Salvation through blood is always the only way and so I expect blood to be part of salvation but under the old it was animals which could not save from sin. but under the new its the blood of Jesus Christ.

Priests to intercede on our behalf and to cleanse us are in both but in the old it was human priests who needed salvation themselves but in the new our perfect High priest offering His own blood.

and so on.

You have always been respectful and nice in your replies, gotime. When I first saw your posts, a few years ago I would get really frustrated and point out all the errors that I thought I saw in them.

Now, I realize, I've just had the one contention with most of your posts. And that is, coming to the Lord Jesus Christ doesn't cause us to work at the law like you say it does. Coming to the Lord causes us to rest from our works of the law. We are dead to the law so that we might live to God. If we attempt to go back to working at the law we fall from grace and are no longer living unto God.

Even though the law is done away, dead, abolished, in CHRISTIANS who have come to Christ, this doesn't cause us to break any of the law. It causes us to have fruit grown in our lives. It is the only way fruit is grown and it is only by this fruit that the law is kept.

So if you really want to keep the law then you will abandon your work at it and your understanding of it and you will come to Christ and He will give you understanding and rest from your work. He doesn't give us rest from some of it. He gives us rest from all of it. Without the Lord Jesus Christ we can do nothing.

That's about the best I can do. I know it probably doesn't make sense to you. I know it will be a matter of contention and debate between us. See Acts 15...

 

[fredjames]

Actually the scripture reads "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the rhema of Christ"

And what is also made clear is that the law is not of faith.
And legalism is a false righteousness that satan uses to pervert the true gospel of grace.

Ga 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Fair enough, 'hearing the rhema/doctrine of CHRIST', that starts from Matthew chapter 5, the 'Sermon on the Mount' and onwards, what does the 'doctrine' of CHRIST consist of?

Aren't there commandments and instructions of LORD JESUS CHRIST, words/teachings that, 'everyone then who hears these and does/practices them are liken onto a wise builder's 'Wisdom' and 'Power' of 'GOD's AGAPE', how to 'love' GOD and his 'neighbor'?

According to Apostle Paul, written in, 1 Corinthians chapter 1, that the 'Wisdom' and the 'Power' of GOD is in the 'Gospel', which is according to the Gospel of John, chapter 1, 'the Grace and Truth LORD JESUS CHRIST brought us from Heaven?

 

[fredjames]

Seriously, you need help. I hope you will find it

That is what the Jews in Nazareth wanted to say to JESUS, judging by HIS appearance and words, as HE read from the Scripture of Prophet Isaiah, declaring HE the MESSIAH has come. JESUS knowing their hearts, HE prophesy for them and 'it is written', by saying;

"Physician heal thyself first ............................................................"

Thank you and i am not surprised at all, knowing HIS words/teachings, what would today's, 'some faith Law written in their heart believers', say to his least important and unworthy servants prophesying.

i forgive yous and may GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST forgive yous as well and 'Help' yous 'discern' sound doctrine Spiritual knowledge.

The Apostle's letters of CHRIST, taught us by the Help of the HOLY SPIRIT, to watch out for 'counterfits' and 'imposters' within the church realm itself, who have gone ahead of them who lived with CHRIST firsthand hearing the Gospel.

JESUS said this to HIS disciples and it is written and the HOLY SPIRIT, 'brings to our remembrance all that CHRIST have spoken', that is one of HIS duty in us, that;

"Your worst enemy will be in your own household."

Please 'do not' be a 'fox' like Herod, since you still 'do not' get it in our 'prophesying' to yous for 'repentance' and throw the same back to us, because what you do not 'believe' of CHRIST, 'do not' use them back in 'desperation' on us, thank you.

 

[fredjames]

With all due respect to 'Yous', who say boldly, yous are no longer a 'Law' but under 'Grace'.

Then why do yous do good works of love, guided and according to the 'Law' written in yous hearts, as in yous earlier replies quoting from the Old Testament prophet?

Ah ha! so yous have in your hearts and practice a written 'Law' and therefore your conscience either 'accuses' yous for doing wrong or either 'excuses' yous for doing right, correct?

Thank you and in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST may GOD bless yous.