Must Shortly Come To Pass

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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excellent teaching on romans 10 - 11,,
But I am sure you will not listen.. at least with an open mind.


Gods strategy in human history

if fact,, you should start with chapter 9 to get the complete context. Even I learned a few things I did not know with these two teachings.

Gods Soverignty
then why post it to me?
but you're right.
not the slightest bit interested in any variety of dispensationalism/dual covenentalism/millennialism.
seen it all...every flavor. inside out. examined it all with a clear and open mind.
that's why i reject it.
tanks but no tanks.

'even you' learned a few things you did not know!

that's very humble of you.
 
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Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
You did not read a thing I said.

read what I said, and counter my points. or don;t say anything at all. Nothing more nuts than someone not rebutting what you said, but just saying your wrong.. I thought this was a bible discussion forum. Not an I am right you are wrong forum,, thus I do not have to show you where you were wrong in your interpretation..

A good way to get people not to listen to you is to continue doing things like this.


I showed why it can't be now in my points. so show me in my points where I supposedly erred.
LOL, welcome to CC TomL... bet you didn't think about having to explain, give rebuttal, give proof texts and do all over again 3 times.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
some things of note.

Signify, He used Christ as an example, He used a symbol (I will be raised up) to Signify what death he would have.

Of course the symbol, which all will agree, signified a literal event, Christ was lifted up on the cross.

so I do not get the persons reasoning. This is what I have said all along. God used symbols to signify literal events.
He always did this in prophesy

Second argument

behold I things which must shortly rake place. umm.. Lord said "I come quickly" argument is thus nullified.

not to mention takes place. does not mean always complete. It also means begin, or come into existance.


so although it is a good argument, It is not a sound argument.

The rest of it is long. lol.. I will contemplate what it says..
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
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I just read that Premillnnealism has been traced as far back as the 2nd century... interesting.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
EG, I will try to listen to those later when I am not around so much noise. Between witnessing a mini judgement day scene in the kitchen(the casserole mysteriously caught fire, this is my story and i am sticking to it), my 11 year old..being an 11 year old and the dog howling.... i just cant listen right now :(
Thats ok. Just listen,, whenever you get a chance.

I just quickly glanced over your article. I want to read it slower and in more detail tomorrow when I have more time.. and can actually study it.
 
G

GRA

Guest
I went off on GRA thinking he was referring to the rest of us amillenialists(i cannot spell that word)
Usually, when I end a post with something like:

"Something to think about..."
- my expressed intent is to point out a thought or idea that I believe may help to:

~ clarify
~ simplify
~ establish
~ explain
~ define

something related to the thread topic.

Even if it includes sarcasm - the primary purpose is to be throught-provoking... :eek:

( I can be very patient at times ;) but not always :p you are forgiven :D just because :) )

Anyway, ummmmmm. im confused.
"Well, darlin'... You know there is a solution for this..." ( the proper knowledge ) :cool:

Did I miss the world burning up and stuff?
Nope ---- it must shortly come to pass yet in the future... :rolleyes: :D :p ;) :)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
then why post it to me?
but you're right.
not the slightest bit interested in any variety of dispensationalism/dual covenentalism/millennialism.
seen it all...every flavor. inside out. examined it all with a clear and open mind.
that's why i reject it.
tanks but no tanks.

'even you' learned a few things you did not know!

that's very humble of you.
Yes I did. we should NEVER think we know it all. Like you, I though I had heard every flavor of ammilinialism. I learned it from trained scholars and theologians. My pastor is just an ordinary guy with the gift of teaching like I have never seen. No theology, no idealism, just puts it out there as he sees it, then exposes himself to questions after every teaching, I do not know many who would do that.

You should listen, maybe you will learn something you did not know.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I just read that Premillnnealism has been traced as far back as the 2nd century... interesting.
Thats about the time Amiilenialism started.

interesting, if they both started in the 2nd century,, what did the first century believe??
:p
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
48
Signify, He used Christ as an example, He used a symbol (I will be raised up) to Signify what death he would have.
What? Im lost here.

behold I things which must shortly rake place. umm.. Lord said "I come quickly" argument is thus nullified.
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
LOL, welcome to CC TomL... bet you didn't think about having to explain, give rebuttal, give proof texts and do all over again 3 times.
well at least he could give it once :p
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
I just read that Premillnnealism has been traced as far back as the 2nd century... interesting.
ya...a holdover from the judaic mindset the unbelieving jews had - that the Kingdom would be a physical reign with them at the helm.

Who was Premillennial
Papias, Justin Martyr, Aviricius Marcellus, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Hippolytus, Cyprian, Nepos, Commodianus, Lactantius.

But note: ALL of these had one or more of the following problems with their thinking:

Their view was inconsistent with modern premillennialism. So how can they really be used to support modern premillennialism?

They referred to 6,000 years of human history which is wrong. Some of these writers based their entire end-time scheme on this idea — if the foundation is bad the conclusions are also bad. This idea originated with the Jews and was borrowed by some early church fathers.

They believed that the world would end at a certain time and it didn't. Usually this error was in conjunction with the previous one.

End Time Prophecy
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Yes I did. we should NEVER think we know it all. Like you, I though I had heard every flavor of ammilinialism. I learned it from trained scholars and theologians. My pastor is just an ordinary guy with the gift of teaching like I have never seen. No theology, no idealism, just puts it out there as he sees it, then exposes himself to questions after every teaching, I do not know many who would do that.

You should listen, maybe you will learn something you did not know.
don't post to me any more please EG.
not interested.
i'll not reply to you.
thanks.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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Okay, I think I got it! :) after looking everything up. . wow I wonder where I have been not knowing what these words mean!

Amillennialism - denial that an earthly millennium of universal righteousness and peace will either precede or follow the second coming of Jesus Christ

millenialism - belief in the millennium of Christian prophecy (Rev. 20) the thousand years when Christ is to reign

Then there is premillennialism and postmillennialism.

I feel as if I am coming out of the closet. . . .lol :)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
What? Im lost here.

read the first "misunderstanding" he used in his letter.. maybe then you will understand,, if not ask again.



The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

Behold "I come quickly"

As for "take place"


1096. γίνομαι ginŏmai, ghin´-om-ahee; a prol. and mid. form of a prim. verb; to cause to be (“gen” -erate), i.e. (reflex.) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (lit., fig., intens., etc.):—arise, be assembled, be (-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass). continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, × soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.

Strong, J. (2009). Vol. 1: A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (20). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.

γίνομαι
(fut γενήσομαι, aor ἐγενόμην, opt 3 sg γένοιτο, inf γενέσθαι, ptc γενόμενος, pf γέγονα and γεγένημαι, aor pass ἐγενήθην, impv 3 sg γενηθήτω, plpf 3 sg ἐγεγόνει and γεγόνει)
a come to exist: 13.80
b be: 13.3
c become: 13.48
d happen: 13.107
e move: 15.1
f belong to: 57.2
g behave: 41.1
h be in a place: 85.6
i come to be in a place: 85.7
j there was: 91.5

1. to become, i. e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2. to become i. q. to come to pass. happen, of events;
3. to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage:
4. to be made, done, finished
5. to become, be made


Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm's Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (116). New York: Harper & Brothers.

As you can see, in a few greek guides. It does not always mean happen all at once, It can also mean all which i highlighted in bold. All of which could mean it begins, but the end point is unknown.

Thus the things could have started shortly. and ended later (which revelation goes from that age till the end with a new heaven and new earth.. so even though it started then all the things could continue until the end with the return of Christ, his kingdom, then the new heavens. (after judgment)
.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
The answer is easy.

Is Satan decieving the nations?? (ever heard of Hitler, Stalin, Communist China, And the fanatical islamists who are terrorising the world?

Looks like satan still controls most the world.


The first ressurection is not our spiritual ressurection. But literal ressurection. There are MANY ideas as to who this will be,, based on the completelness of scripture, not just one passage.
Take Satan out of the world now, does that mean our sinful nature vanishes? You guys give Satan too much credit. I'm not saying Satan isn't still around, but who knows, have you seen him lately. Maybe Satan's bound, in the pit, but his minions are still taking orders from him. Scripture doesn't say all demons are in the bottomless pitt, Just the one, Satan. Or perhaps Satan's power to totally deceive the nations has but bound. Perhaps this is the time he'll be loosed.
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
48
ya...a holdover from the judaic mindset the unbelieving jews had - that the Kingdom would be a physical reign with them at the helm.

Who was Premillennial
Papias, Justin Martyr, Aviricius Marcellus, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Hippolytus, Cyprian, Nepos, Commodianus, Lactantius.

But note: ALL of these had one or more of the following problems with their thinking:

Their view was inconsistent with modern premillennialism. So how can they really be used to support modern premillennialism?

They referred to 6,000 years of human history which is wrong. Some of these writers based their entire end-time scheme on this idea — if the foundation is bad the conclusions are also bad. This idea originated with the Jews and was borrowed by some early church fathers.

They believed that the world would end at a certain time and it didn't. Usually this error was in conjunction with the previous one.

End Time Prophecy


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premillennialism


Their conclusions are found in some of the literature and theology of early Judaism within the centuries both before and during the development of the Christian New Testament. R. H. Charles in his commentary on Book of Revelation concluded that Jewish eschatology must have developed the concept of an earthly temporary messianic reign prior to the eternal state at the latest by 100 BC[SUP][4][/SUP]

The Book of Enoch
The earliest instance in Jewish literature that teaches an earthly temporary messianic age prior to an eternal state began with “The Apocalypse of Weeks” contained in 1 Enoch 91-107. This work likely dates to the early 2nd century[SUP][5][/SUP] and shows a schematization of the divine history divided into ten ambiguous periods of time called “weeks.” In the apocalypse, weeks 1-7 (93:1-10) retell the biblical history from the creation of humanity to the author’s time of writing (possibly during the Maccabean crisis). However, after the seventh "week", the temporary earthly messianic age begins and occurs for a period of three more “weeks” (93:12-15). After the temporary messianic kingdom, the creation of the new heavens and the new earth occurs (93:16).

Esdras
Second Esdras likely dates from soon after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The apocryphal book was apparently an attempt to explain the difficulties associated with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple to the Jewish people.[SUP][6][/SUP] During one of the visions in the book, Ezra receives a revelation from the angel Uriel. The angel explains that prior to the last judgment, the Messiah will come and establish a temporary kingdom lasting 400 years after which all of creation will be obliterated including the Messiah (7:28). Seven days after this cataclysmic event, the resurrection and the judgment will occur followed by the eternal state (7:36).

It is interesting that these 2 non inspired books have a premillennial view. Much like what people believe today. I wonder why that is.
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
48
As you can see, in a few greek guides. It does not always mean happen all at once, It can also mean all which i highlighted in bold. All of which could mean it begins, but the end point is unknown.

Thus the things could have started shortly. and ended later (which revelation goes from that age till the end with a new heaven and new earth.. so even though it started then all the things could continue until the end with the return of Christ, his kingdom, then the new heavens. (after judgment)
.
Words can have multiple meanings. Totally agree there, but are we CHOOSING the correct meaning or the one that fits our personal view?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
They were livin it!!!!! ;) neener neener neeeeeeeeeeeener
lol I guess the premills were too :p

The thing about premil to me is this.

God is patient on this earth, He allows evil to rome like it has because he is willing that none should perish. But there will be a time when the church on this earth falls away (loses tough with the truth) and very few souls will then be won to the Lord.. At this time, When God sees there is no hope of many, if any coming to him. God will say enough is enough. He will punish evil on the earth. Take his vengence on all the wrongs which have been done to us, and the world will not be able to comprehend the power of his wrath.. At the end,, (when he returns, because if he does not, no flesh would survive) he returns. Kills all evil. Only those who have "endured to the end" will be saved, and they enter the kingdom with him.

God restors earth to the place it was the way he created it, and for 1000 years, he rules and as the OT prophesies proclaim. the whole world will know he is the Lord and worship him..

Of course,, even then people will reject him, as proven by the fact th emoment satan is released. it takes him no time to gather an army, Which God supernaturally destroys with no army.

think.. the OT prophets and fathers were told they would rule
The NT church were told they would be judges of the world

How can these things be if their is no world to judge?

To me it has nothing to do with Isreal.. I could care less about that. Israel just further supports my belief.. and people who do not believe it usually bring israel into it, so I am forced to speak about it.

but anyway, would take HOURS to go into it.. I will leave it at that for now.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Words can have multiple meanings. Totally agree there, but are we CHOOSING the correct meaning or the one that fits our personal view?

we must chose the meaning which agrees with ALL of scripture.

then again, even then, our personal view can get in the way.. lol


Thats why I look at things like, could the events described have happened in the first century.. as they are described to happen (the literal things the symbols represent.. you know.. Like Christ being lifted up as a symbol to represent his literal death)