My thoughts on Hebrew vs Greek thinking, what are yours?
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"I've read enough to be comfortable that most, possibly all the New Testament was originally written in Hebrew, though I'm not interested in getting in a debate if some don't agree."
That's like saying...
I've read enough to be comfortable that the earth is flat, though I'm not interested in getting in a debate if some don't agree.''
That's like saying...
I've read enough to be comfortable that the earth is flat, though I'm not interested in getting in a debate if some don't agree.''
maybe we should examine both sides of the issue though,,,,,,,,,,,,"Adam"(what does it mean and in what language?",,?,,,,"Seth",,what does it mean and in which language?,,,,"notice they don't mean anything in other languages",,,,that is the definitions we use,other than Hebrew,,,why did he establish certain meanings in Hebrew if it was not his intention to convey a message in Hebrew,,,we know he decided to change to Greek at a certian point,,,does that negate what he established beforehand in Hebrew?
exactly did you look to see what Adam,Seth then Seth's son and then his grandson's ect. all mean in Hebrew?,,what if they are revealing a message by Revelation?,,,,and then afterward as we know decided to shift to Greek to do the same,,sure would would like to see those things if they are so wouldn't we?
We most certainly are NOT in agreement. I believe the many NT scriptures about Moses, and about obedience to law. I do not believe for a minute that Christ wiped out any scripture, and I would have to if I followed you instead of scripture. You know the scripture I am referring, to, but I will show you yours and why I think they disagree with what you are so sure they say. (We both are sure of how we see scripture).
Heb 7:13For the One these things are spoken about belonged to a different tribe. No one from it has served at the altar. Heb 7:14 Now it is evident that our Lord came from Judah, and Moses said nothing about that tribe concerning priests. Heb 7:15 And this becomes clearer if another priest like Melchizedek appears, Heb 7:16 who did not become a priest based on a legal command concerning physical descent but based on the power of an indestructible life. Heb 7:17 For it has been testified: You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek. Heb 7:18 So the previous command is annulled because it was weak and unprofitable Heb 7:19( for the law perfected nothing), but a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. Heb 7:20 one of this happened without an oath. For others became priests without an oath, Heb 7:21 but He became a priest with an oath made by the One who said to Him: The Lord has sworn, and He will not change His mind, You are a priest forever. Heb 7:22 So Jesus has also become the guarantee of a better covenant. Heb 7:23 Now many have become Levitical priests, since they are prevented by death from remaining in office. Heb 7:24But because He remains forever, He holds His priesthood permanently.
Christ came from the tribe of Judah, not the tribe of the priesthood: the tribe of Levi. Through the Levi priesthood they could achieve atonement and "sleep" was the word used for death. Christ is better, we are given salvation through Christ. When the veil was split at the and Christ died for our sins we learn this: Matt. 52The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;…
Hebrew 7 speaks of this.
Heb 8:13By saying, a new covenant, He has declared that the first is old. And what is old and aging is about to disappear.
Please note it says "disappearing", not as many say it says, that Christ wiped it out.
1Co 9:20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win Jews; to those under the law, like one under the law--though I myself am not under the law--to win those under the law.
Those without Christ are under the law for salvation, something that never was and cannot be, This scripture says he works to win them to be under Christ for salvation.
Mat 22:37He said to him, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
Mat 22:38This is the greatest and most important command.
Christ referred to the OT when he said this, Christ did not feel it was done away with.
Deu 6:5Love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.
You have other scriptures you use to back your belief in the disappearance of much of God's word, and I really don't think either Paul or Christ reported that it was done away with.
Heb 7:13For the One these things are spoken about belonged to a different tribe. No one from it has served at the altar. Heb 7:14 Now it is evident that our Lord came from Judah, and Moses said nothing about that tribe concerning priests. Heb 7:15 And this becomes clearer if another priest like Melchizedek appears, Heb 7:16 who did not become a priest based on a legal command concerning physical descent but based on the power of an indestructible life. Heb 7:17 For it has been testified: You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek. Heb 7:18 So the previous command is annulled because it was weak and unprofitable Heb 7:19( for the law perfected nothing), but a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. Heb 7:20 one of this happened without an oath. For others became priests without an oath, Heb 7:21 but He became a priest with an oath made by the One who said to Him: The Lord has sworn, and He will not change His mind, You are a priest forever. Heb 7:22 So Jesus has also become the guarantee of a better covenant. Heb 7:23 Now many have become Levitical priests, since they are prevented by death from remaining in office. Heb 7:24But because He remains forever, He holds His priesthood permanently.
Christ came from the tribe of Judah, not the tribe of the priesthood: the tribe of Levi. Through the Levi priesthood they could achieve atonement and "sleep" was the word used for death. Christ is better, we are given salvation through Christ. When the veil was split at the and Christ died for our sins we learn this: Matt. 52The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;…
Hebrew 7 speaks of this.
Heb 8:13By saying, a new covenant, He has declared that the first is old. And what is old and aging is about to disappear.
Please note it says "disappearing", not as many say it says, that Christ wiped it out.
1Co 9:20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win Jews; to those under the law, like one under the law--though I myself am not under the law--to win those under the law.
Those without Christ are under the law for salvation, something that never was and cannot be, This scripture says he works to win them to be under Christ for salvation.
Mat 22:37He said to him, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
Mat 22:38This is the greatest and most important command.
Christ referred to the OT when he said this, Christ did not feel it was done away with.
Deu 6:5Love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.
You have other scriptures you use to back your belief in the disappearance of much of God's word, and I really don't think either Paul or Christ reported that it was done away with.
And I am so sorry you cannot even think about the reason for them! I will know for sure sooner than you will, for surely at 89 I can't live here that much longer!
There are so many scriptures about that God is one, God is eternal. The entire 119th psalm says this. If I could convince you, then there would be one more person on the Father's and Christ's side it seems to me. Paul who you are quoting as teaching you even says he is only listening to the Lord. Yet, you say the Lord says he cancels what He said.
There are so many scriptures about that God is one, God is eternal. The entire 119th psalm says this. If I could convince you, then there would be one more person on the Father's and Christ's side it seems to me. Paul who you are quoting as teaching you even says he is only listening to the Lord. Yet, you say the Lord says he cancels what He said.
K
Redtent, I'm seeing a pattern with many Christians who get plain nasty and rude if it is suggested the [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Brit Chadash (sn- New Testament) was [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]originally written in H[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]ebrew. It's as if their very identity is threatened.
I mean, why in the world would God have cause a Hebrew writing to Hebrews to be written in.....wait for it......Hebrew? That's just plain crazy. But what do I know? I'm still trying to figure out if the Earth has a curve. To borrow words of a brother...hahahahaha.
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I mean, why in the world would God have cause a Hebrew writing to Hebrews to be written in.....wait for it......Hebrew? That's just plain crazy. But what do I know? I'm still trying to figure out if the Earth has a curve. To borrow words of a brother...hahahahaha.
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Redtent, I'm seeing a pattern with many Christians who get plain nasty and rude if it is suggested the Brit Chadash (sn- New Testament) was originally written in Hebrew. It's as if their very identity is threatened.
I mean, why in the world would God have cause a Hebrew writing to Hebrews to be written in.....wait for it......Hebrew? That's just plain crazy. But what do I know? I'm still trying to figure out if the Earth has a curve. To borrow words of a brother...hahahahaha.
I mean, why in the world would God have cause a Hebrew writing to Hebrews to be written in.....wait for it......Hebrew? That's just plain crazy. But what do I know? I'm still trying to figure out if the Earth has a curve. To borrow words of a brother...hahahahaha.
All the archaeological digs through the past two hundred years produce Greek and only Greek manuscripts...no Hebrew.
Right. We have only early writings that says it was originally in Hebrew, and what did they know? And again, the judge and jury of modern man has declared that Christ had no roots in those thousands of years before Christ lived as a man, and modern man has all the authority to make all the decisions, right? Man can even clone man, so creation is now in man's hands. Who are we to question scripture if it was breathed by God before Christ, the real God came on the scene. Hebrew culture, Hebrew thought, it is ALL hooey. Down with all the Old Testament, it is only shadows, nothing real in that entire scripture. We have a new God. a new covenant, and a new enlightened world who knows all and can do all. We are operating it perfectly without any outdated input from a God who has passed His usefulness. Just ask this forum, they will all tell you. We even get some help from Christ, and the new world has proven that Christ agrees with us, and Christ and God has a spokesman in Paul who also agrees. So down with Hebrew, down with the Old outdated testament, onward and upward with the new. We can bury all the shadows and rejoice in the new.
Take a breath RedTent,
I'm referring to the NT manuscripts. I acknowledge the OT was written in Hebrew and Aramaic.
Can you produce early (Before 500AD) mss.(manuscripts) where there are NT fragments written in Hebrew ?
Otherwise you may as well face reality that for some reason God chose to have His original record of Jesus written in that (YIIKKKES) 'pagan' Greek language. Sorry to burst your bubble but it is an imaginary one until evidence proves otherwise.
I'm referring to the NT manuscripts. I acknowledge the OT was written in Hebrew and Aramaic.
Can you produce early (Before 500AD) mss.(manuscripts) where there are NT fragments written in Hebrew ?
Otherwise you may as well face reality that for some reason God chose to have His original record of Jesus written in that (YIIKKKES) 'pagan' Greek language. Sorry to burst your bubble but it is an imaginary one until evidence proves otherwise.
Are you saying that distortion of scripture is a better position? Do you actually like believing God changed his mind about everything He said to Moses, that God is not trustworthy and in Hebrews it tells you this? That it is a lie of Christ when Christ said he fulfilled, didn't change what the Father said and fulfilled truly means that Christ got rid of all the Father said? That Paul was not a man who loved the Lord and Christ but a man who reported that they changed everything? I have heard that the only reason God gave the law to Moses was as a curse for everyone for those thousands of years until Christ came and then Christ miraculously raised the curse so we could live any way we pleased for we are under the grace that forgives everything, regardless. So all the prophets were only cursed because they were born at the wrong time.
Well, I think the most salient points have already been covered!
God not only chose Koine Greek to be the language to transmit the gospel over the known world in that time, he also chose Alexander to force his empire to speak Greek, in order that the time might be fulfilled! There are many threads that intersected at the time if Christ, and the powerful Roman Empire was also part of the plan! Despite being brutal at times, the Romans made the land roads and the sea ways safe. With a common language like Greek, Paul and the other apostles were able or safely travel the roads and seas spreading the gospel. Does the Roman mindset matter at all? Yes, in so far as God picked the Romans to be in charge, so not only would they crucify Jesus, but the would facilitate the easy dissemination of the good news.
It was also the right time, because the Messiah had to be of the line of David and the house of Judah. When the temple was raised by those useful Romans in 70 AD by Titus, all of the Jewish genealogical records were destroyed. So the Messiah had to come before this time.
All planned and orchestrated by God. And God was not taken unaware that Hebrew was not used. The language was not the message, it was in fact Jesus who was the message.
As one who has recently studied Greek and Hebrew, there are radical differences between the languages. Concrete for Hebrew, and abstract thinking for Greek. But all centred around the coming of Christ - first as a baby to die for our sins, and second as the returning King of Kings and Lord of Lords!
God provided a Bible which communicates the message if the gospel in any language. He made it simple enough for a child to understand, but deep enough for scholars and theologians to spend lifetimes studying. That is the miracle of the Holy Spirit illuminating our eyes to "the way, the truth and the life."
By the way, the reason the New Testament was written in Greek was because the Jews had lost their Hebrew. That is why the Septuagint, LXX or Greek Old Testament was written, so Jews could read the Holy Scriptures and study the Torah in their own language - Koine Greek!!! And 300 years before Christ!
Finally, Jesus and the apostles often quoted from the Old Testament. Do you know which Bible they quoted from?
BOTH! They used the Hebrew and Greek Old Testaments almost equally! I think that means the language or mind set of the cultural probably means little, despite their differences!
Please let go of this Hebrew nonsense that has lead you so far astray!
God not only chose Koine Greek to be the language to transmit the gospel over the known world in that time, he also chose Alexander to force his empire to speak Greek, in order that the time might be fulfilled! There are many threads that intersected at the time if Christ, and the powerful Roman Empire was also part of the plan! Despite being brutal at times, the Romans made the land roads and the sea ways safe. With a common language like Greek, Paul and the other apostles were able or safely travel the roads and seas spreading the gospel. Does the Roman mindset matter at all? Yes, in so far as God picked the Romans to be in charge, so not only would they crucify Jesus, but the would facilitate the easy dissemination of the good news.
It was also the right time, because the Messiah had to be of the line of David and the house of Judah. When the temple was raised by those useful Romans in 70 AD by Titus, all of the Jewish genealogical records were destroyed. So the Messiah had to come before this time.
All planned and orchestrated by God. And God was not taken unaware that Hebrew was not used. The language was not the message, it was in fact Jesus who was the message.
As one who has recently studied Greek and Hebrew, there are radical differences between the languages. Concrete for Hebrew, and abstract thinking for Greek. But all centred around the coming of Christ - first as a baby to die for our sins, and second as the returning King of Kings and Lord of Lords!
God provided a Bible which communicates the message if the gospel in any language. He made it simple enough for a child to understand, but deep enough for scholars and theologians to spend lifetimes studying. That is the miracle of the Holy Spirit illuminating our eyes to "the way, the truth and the life."
By the way, the reason the New Testament was written in Greek was because the Jews had lost their Hebrew. That is why the Septuagint, LXX or Greek Old Testament was written, so Jews could read the Holy Scriptures and study the Torah in their own language - Koine Greek!!! And 300 years before Christ!
Finally, Jesus and the apostles often quoted from the Old Testament. Do you know which Bible they quoted from?
BOTH! They used the Hebrew and Greek Old Testaments almost equally! I think that means the language or mind set of the cultural probably means little, despite their differences!
Please let go of this Hebrew nonsense that has lead you so far astray!
And do read the posts completely. If you start a thread, you should be willing to listen to what others have to say about the topic. That is only fair, or soon, no one will be reading any posts but their own and their friends, and this will no longer be a discussion, argument or opinions, but large blocks of meaningless text!
What interesting points! Except I don't think that learning about the Hebrew language God used so extensively, or their way of thinking is nonsense at all.
Think of the difference in interpreting the first chapter of Genesis. To the Hebrew mind, that book gives all the information necessary to us, and God thought so to. To the Greek mind it is so lacking in information that any findings that the world is older than the week of creation has made many turn from God as not reliable. They want the specifics of time and how it was created.
I also disagree with your idea that the Lord planned for Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, and Alexander. Certainly, God uses them for our God and is not uninvolved with how our world developed, but mixed in with this is free choice. We can see this at work as we are told of how God used the exile of the Hebrews in Babylon, for prophets tell us about it. The people of Judah chose to worship other Gods, this triggered other events. We are given step by step the control God had of this to work for the good of the Hebrews. God used the Babylonian and Persian kings for good, but God didn't say that I am going to have the Hebrews worship other Gods so I can exile them to Babylon.
I don't think God said He would change the way people thought to Greek thinking and have them forget Hebrew and take up other languages, even though there is so much good that came of it. We wouldn't even have the technology we have today if the thinking and language hadn't changed. You have pointed out some of the wonderful ways God has used this change in thinking.
I think your points point to some real thinking about this. But I strongly object to your idea that we must not even know anything about it or think about it, palming it off as nonsense. Just as I strongly object to people saying it has to do with making the OT of importance when they think it isn't but much is obsolete.
Think of the difference in interpreting the first chapter of Genesis. To the Hebrew mind, that book gives all the information necessary to us, and God thought so to. To the Greek mind it is so lacking in information that any findings that the world is older than the week of creation has made many turn from God as not reliable. They want the specifics of time and how it was created.
I also disagree with your idea that the Lord planned for Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, and Alexander. Certainly, God uses them for our God and is not uninvolved with how our world developed, but mixed in with this is free choice. We can see this at work as we are told of how God used the exile of the Hebrews in Babylon, for prophets tell us about it. The people of Judah chose to worship other Gods, this triggered other events. We are given step by step the control God had of this to work for the good of the Hebrews. God used the Babylonian and Persian kings for good, but God didn't say that I am going to have the Hebrews worship other Gods so I can exile them to Babylon.
I don't think God said He would change the way people thought to Greek thinking and have them forget Hebrew and take up other languages, even though there is so much good that came of it. We wouldn't even have the technology we have today if the thinking and language hadn't changed. You have pointed out some of the wonderful ways God has used this change in thinking.
I think your points point to some real thinking about this. But I strongly object to your idea that we must not even know anything about it or think about it, palming it off as nonsense. Just as I strongly object to people saying it has to do with making the OT of importance when they think it isn't but much is obsolete.