My thoughts on Hebrew vs Greek thinking, what are yours?

[crossnote]

From the eminent first century Yahudite (sn-Jew) historian, priest, and scholar Josephus admitted that he could not speak Greek fluently and that the Yahudite (sn-Jew) frowned on any Yahudite (sn-Jew) who did. "I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understanding the elements of the Greek language although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own language, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness: for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations" (Antiquities, 20:11:2).

If Josephus was unable to speak Greek sufficiently, how could the uneducated disciples write their books in Greek? Why would they even want to do so?

Paul said, For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."


The New Testament is a continuation of the Old, not a cancellation of the Old, so why switch to pagan Greek?

Does arguing for a Greek New Testament bring one closer to the truth, or take one further from it, knowing that the Old Testament is a thoroughly Hebrew work?

Let me repeat...

Can you produce early (Before 500AD) mss.(manuscripts) where there are NT fragments written in Hebrew ?
Otherwise you may as well face reality that for some reason God chose to have His original record of Jesus written in that (YIIKKKES) 'pagan' Greek language. Sorry to burst your bubble but it is an imaginary one until evidence proves otherwise.

...let me just add that there has been hundreds of NT fragments in Greek found dating before 500AD. You can go by what seems sensible, but it simply lacks actual evidence.

 

[Karraster]

I think this is why they switched over to Greek... God used to speak to them in Hebrew, but not any more.

Isa_28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

What about all the Hebrew words out of place? Why does it contain many untranslated Hebrew words?[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Abba ("dearest father"); Messiah ("Anointed one"); Rabbi ("my teacher"); hosanna.....[/FONT]

just to name a few. and what about the names? That was what initially got me looking into it. The names alone is very compelling proof.

 

[KJV1611]

What about all the Hebrew words out of place? Why does it contain many untranslated Hebrew words?Abba ("dearest father"); Messiah ("Anointed one"); Rabbi ("my teacher"); hosanna.....

just to name a few. and what about the names? That was what initially got me looking into it. The names alone is very compelling proof.

What's your opinion of Isa_28:11, what do you think God meant by that?

 

[Karraster]

Forgot to add, about Isiah 28:11, look how many translations there are, read all over the world, missionaries, evangelists galore. That wouldn't necessarily mean the originals were not in Hebrew tongue. In fact, it makes a more compelling case, for knowing they had the gospels in their own tongue at the first.

I think a more important question we should consider, would it make a difference in how we believe if it were written in a different language to what we had believed? As for me, no. I will continue to study the Hebrew meaning because it has opened up the whole Bible to me.

 

[KJV1611]

Forgot to add, about Isiah 28:11, look how many translations there are, read all over the world, missionaries, evangelists galore. That wouldn't necessarily mean the originals were not in Hebrew tongue. In fact, it makes a more compelling case, for knowing they had the gospels in their own tongue at the first.

I think a more important question we should consider, would it make a difference in how we believe if it were written in a different language to what we had believed? As for me, no. I will continue to study the Hebrew meaning because it has opened up the whole Bible to me.

Then I say "you go girl".... God puts all of us right where we need to be.

 

[Karraster]

Let me repeat...

Can you produce early (Before 500AD) mss.(manuscripts) where there are NT fragments written in Hebrew ?
Otherwise you may as well face reality that for some reason God chose to have His original record of Jesus written in that (YIIKKKES) 'pagan' Greek language. Sorry to burst your bubble but it is an imaginary one until evidence proves otherwise.

...let me just add that there has been hundreds of NT fragments in Greek found dating before 500AD. You can go by what seems sensible, but it simply lacks actual evidence.

The proof in in the scriptures themselves./ [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]verb-noun reversal common to Hebrew and Semitic languages.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]..[/FONT] the grammar of the Brit Chadash does not befit good Greek, but does reflect excellent Hebrew grammar. In addition, many Hebraic idioms and expressions are scattered throughout the Brit Chadash. Had the original been composed in Greek, these sayings would have been put into Greek form and expression.[/FONT] .....and I thought the book of Matthew was a given, even the circus fathers agree it was written in Hebrew.

But like I said before, I don't care which you believe. Either has power to convert souls! I can't figure why this is a hot button subject for some, why the claws come out.

 

[Karraster]

Then I say "you go girl".... God puts all of us right where we need to be.

That gets a big Aman and a rep point. lol

 

[Karraster]

oops, gotta spread some around before giving to you again.

 

[crossnote]

oops, gotta spread some around before giving to you again.

gee thx. naww, no claws just trying not to muddle what the evidence points to

 

[Karraster]

gee thx. naww, no claws just trying not to muddle what the evidence points to

Have you ever studied the Dark Ages? Quite fascinating really, all the things that went "poof" during that time...

 

[crossnote]

Have you ever studied the Dark Ages? Quite fascinating really, all the things that went "poof" during that time...

Yes, they ran on superstitions instead of proven facts

 

[oldernotwiser]

Thanks oldenotwiser but I don't read books outside of the bible, do you have any scriptural examples?

it might help to do so. now, in the 21st century we have difficulty understanding many things that motivate and drive people in other cultures. i have been in china for almost 8 years and am still discovering things about family, face, and human relationships. when we read scripture we are stepping into a culture at least 2000 years away from our own and cant read as if it came from our own time and place.

 

[crossnote]

One thing that should be acknowledged is that there are truths in Scripture that cut across cultural divides and go deeper and earlier than Alexander or Abraham or even the flood right into the Garden itself (Adam /Eve) whose meanings are revealed to us (as born again Christians) by both the Author of all languages and Scripture itself.

 

[Elin]

RedTent I'm always open to new ideas and things that will help me know and understand God better. So I'm not against you on this. I'm trying to understand how knowledge of Hebrew culture can give me better understanding.

I don't see how the Hebrew mind set gives any more revelation to the time frame of creation or how he did it. God said "and the evening and the morning were the first day" etc... the days are 24 hours and it took 7 days to complete creation. I believe that, I use that knowledge in my bible studies. So I don't see how Hebrew culture helps me at all in this case.

The apparent legalism of the law is a foreshadowing of Christ... every Old Testament law points to New Testament principles. No one has ever been saved by keeping the law. I didn't learn that from studying Hebrew culture, I learned that from bible reading.

Can you give an example of how the Hebrew understanding of salt has benefited you?
What scripture do you understand better?
Those things you mentioned about salt is Hebrew mysticism... God never told them to separate each grain of salt that I'm aware of. Where are those passages that mention this?

Actually, it's in the NT where I learned that salt was a picture of grace.

Salt penetrates - grace penetrates to the level of our hearts and movtives, changing them.
Salt retards corruption - grace transforms our corruption.
Salt purifies - grace purifies, making us holy through obedience.
Salt aids healing - grace heals our sin (1Pe 2:24, see 2Kgs 2:20-22).
Salt makes untasty things tasty and acceptable - we are unacceptable to God without his grace.

Col 4:6 - "Let your conversation be always full of grace (no corruption),
seasoned with salt (which retards corruption)."

Mt 5:13 - "You are the salt of the earth (and the decaying earth needs salt).
But if salt loses its saltiness, how can it made salty again?
It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men."

If the professing church (salt) loses its saltiness (holiness by grace), it will
no longer be good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men."

(Is there a prophecy in this?)

Mk 9:49 - "Everyone will be salted (purified) with fire (purification)."

Mk 9:50 - ". . .have salt in yourselves and be at peace with each other."

Grace retards our corruptions (the source of our conflicts--Jas 4:1) and makes us peaceable.

 

[Elin]

From the eminent first century Yahudite (sn-Jew) historian, priest, and scholar Josephus admitted that he could not speak Greek fluently and that the Yahudite (sn-Jew) frowned on any Yahudite (sn-Jew) who did. "I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understanding the elements of the Greek language although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own language, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness: for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations" (Antiquities, 20:11:2).

If Josephus was unable to speak Greek sufficiently,
how could the uneducated disciples write their books in Greek? Why would they even want to do so?

The OT had been translated into Greek ~300 years before Christ.

Many were reading the OT in Greek at the time of Christ

Paul said, For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

The New Testament is a continuation of the Old, not a cancellation of the Old, so why switch to pagan Greek?

For the same reason the OT was translated into pagan Greek ~300 years before the birth of Christ.

The NT was written over 400 years after the OT.

Does arguing for a Greek New Testament bring one closer to the truth, or take one further from it, knowing that the Old Testament is a thoroughly Hebrew work?

So you are left with denying historical facts and creating senseless consequences to support
your false human rationale?

This is absurd.

 

[RedTent]

I'm trying to understand your point of view... what more can you tell me about creation than what's in the bible? Obviously light was not sunlight because the light was created before the sun.

If you are determined that you have thorough understanding of everything the bible says, as your post indicates, and you are certain that nothing could help you in any way understand any better, why come to me with the same study of the bible you have, for anything more when you are certain everything you have cannot be helped further in any way?

Angela points out she is an intelligent woman who is so superior with actually going to bible college that nothing I say can compare with her superiority and any study I do is wrong because she is so right. You say that you know everything about what the bible says and have no need for further study, like the languages people used or the culture of the people a book was originally written about. I don't think you are trying to understand at all, just as Angela is not trying to understand. You are both only trying to get across that you are superior people who knows it all.

 

[Karraster]

The OT had been translated into Greek ~300 years before Christ.

Many were reading the OT in Greek at the time of Christ


For the same reason the OT was translated into pagan Greek ~300 years before the birth of Christ.

The NT was written over 400 years after the OT.

So you are left with denying historical facts and creating senseless consequences to support
your false human rationale?

This is absurd.

What is absurd, is that Christians can't have a discussion without including derogatory statements designed to belittle and tear down. Also it is noted you have no evidence for your claims, assertion without demonstration is, if I recall, how you frequently put it.

 

[Elin]

From the eminent first century Yahudite (sn-Jew) historian, priest, and scholar Josephus admitted that he could not speak Greek fluently and that the Yahudite (sn-Jew) frowned on any Yahudite (sn-Jew) who did. "I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understanding the elements of the Greek language although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own language, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness: for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations" (Antiquities, 20:11:2).

If Josephus was unable to speak Greek sufficiently,
how could the uneducated disciples write their books in Greek? Why would they even want to do so?

The OT had been translated into Greek (Septuagint) ~300 years before Christ.

Many were reading the OT in Greek at the time of Christ.

Paul said, For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

The New Testament is a continuation of the Old, not a cancellation of the Old,
so why switch to pagan Greek?

For the same reason the OT was translated into pagan Greek ~300 years before the birth of Christ.

The NT was written over 400 years after the OT.

Does arguing for a Greek New Testament bring one closer to the truth, or take one further from it, knowing that the Old Testament is a thoroughly Hebrew work?

So you are left with denying historical facts and creating senseless consequences
to support your false human rationale?

What is absurd, is that Christians can't have a discussion without including derogatory statements designed to belittle and tear down. Also it is noted you have no evidence for your claims,
assertion without demonstration is, if I recall, how you frequently put it.

To which assertion are you referring?

 

[JGIG]

RedTent,

Kindly re-read my post and then re-read yours.

How you come up with the idea that what I said means that I think God wants nothing to do with Hebrews is beyond me. Your conclusions are without any basis AT ALL.

One has to conclude that with the repeated misrepresentation of my and other posters you are either not reading what we write or are doing your best to repeat the lie enough times that people will believe it (the big lie fallacy).

So try again.

After reading the post.

-JGIG

I most certainly did NOT read all your post. I read what you thought of everything I reported about the bible, and it was that everything I said was completely wrong that I was being a false prophet and on and on. I am answering that. I certainly would not read all the stuff you post, no Christian would speak as you do. To report why and how you think scripture says something different to you is one thing, something Christians would do. No person who has the Lord within them would ever speak as you do. No I have not read all you say, nor do I think you are worth reading.

I know I'm responding to this comment late, but I've been putting lots of paint on our walls on a deadline, and the little time I did have here I was either reading or felt let to post elsewhere.

That said, you still have not provided the proof of this:

"I read what you thought of everything I reported about the bible, and it was that everything I said was completely wrong that I was being a false prophet and on and on." ​

Though there is plenty of proof of this:

"I most certainly did NOT read all your post." ​

And for someone who does not enjoy what you perceive to be judgement against you (note the term perceived - no one here is judging you, simply disagreeing with the conclusions of your study), you certainly are not shy about accusing and judging others without offering any quotes to back up your assertions.

"I certainly would not read all the stuff you post, no Christian would speak as you do. To report why and how you think scripture says something different to you is one thing, something Christians would do. No person who has the Lord within them would ever speak as you do."​

RedTent, what specifically are you talking about?

You're throwing some really serious accusations out there - it seems to me that you're attempting to demonize me in order to marginalize what I'm posting - because it disagrees with what you're posting.

You've obviously taken great offense at my posts, which is unfortunate. Perhaps you didn't like it being revealed that you were posting scholarly-sounding material as your own that was not your own? Perhaps you don't like it when we ask for your sources of study so that we may examine them firsthand?

I do find curious your method of interaction on a debate forum . . .

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

I really think most of this post is a way of saying you don't want to think about it. For instance, we know Alexander the Great changed the way the world thought, so how do we know this? Can you go to the bible to prove it? We are told early rabbis objected to Hellenistic thought in the world, but it is only hinted at. Early rabbis did not recognize Christ as the one scripture had told about, how does this relate to what we are to think today? There was the protestant revolution in our world, we are told, so prove it to me. Way over 78% of the bible was first written in the Hebrew Language and around a people who lived as Hebrews did. Does this have any meaning in God's eyes? Prove it!! Many of the people in the bible became idol worshippers, how did God react and is this part of the Hebrew language God used? Prove it!! Should we think about these things as we come to know Christ or should we be ignorant of any of it? We have scripture and the Holy Spirit, we have salvation, many Christians say that anything else, even if it is scripture, isn't for us to think about. Some say that when Christ gave us forgiveness of sins, when His blood was to be used and Christ became the High Priest, Christ wiped out anything given to any people before Christ lived with us as a man. Is this the best way for us to live? It means we have no more ten commandments, no more prophets that told us anything about living that relates to us today, that it was all shadows and shadows must be ignored. Isaiah, Moses, Elijah are not for us. Is this what God wants for us? Or are we allowed to learn as much as we can?

"Some say that when Christ gave us forgiveness of sins, when His blood was to be used and Christ became the High Priest, Christ wiped out anything given to any people before Christ lived with us as a man. Is this the best way for us to live? It means we have no more ten commandments, no more prophets that told us anything about living that relates to us today, that it was all shadows and shadows must be ignored. Isaiah, Moses, Elijah are not for us. Is this what God wants for us? Or are we allowed to learn as much as we can?"

​

That's an unfair representation of what those who uphold the New Covenant in Christ say here.

We are not against the Law of God, but for the proper use of the Law of God.

We don't say that shadows should be ignored, but that shadows should not be the focus - Christ, His Work, what that actually accomplished, and who we are in Him because of His Perfect High Priesthood should be the focus. The Law was given to bring us to Christ. Once we come to Christ, the Law has nothing more to do with us. We actually die to the Law according to the Scriptures. Several prophets tell us of the New Covenant in Christ to come. We don't dismiss them at all!

If you actually read our posts, you would know that.

I have a question for you about 'old' vs. 'new':

You're a 'seasoned citizen', and one who has seen the advent and progression of many inventions.Wringer washers would have still been around when you started doing laundry (I looked it up ).

Do you still use a machine like this?

Why or why not?

18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. (from Heb. 7)​

-JGIG