My thoughts on Hebrew vs Greek thinking, what are yours?
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No doubt and I agree...people who reject the Koine Greek fail to see the bigger picture of History and how GOD allowed the Hellenization of the Known WORLD by ALEXANDER the GREAT and how God used that to give the scriptures in an expressive language that was COMMON (KOINE) to the majority of the people......
Prove what to you? Red, if I make an assertion, feel free to backquote it & ask me to support it (unless it is axiomatic). You are the one making sweeping generalizations. The proof is your burden for your claims.
Around? What is your proof that the Bible was written "around a people who lived as Hebrews did"?
If the Hebrews are a major topic in the Bible, how does that prove that it is the product of their thinking?
"Pasa graphē theopneustos."
19 And we have the word of prophecy made more sure; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day-star arise in your hearts: 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation. 21 For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but men spake from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit.
You don't think God is capable of speaking to a person in their own language?
Acts 2:4-6 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Acts 2:4-6 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
With the "reasoning" of the current ideas, we would have to say that God planned Hitler so He could use him for God's purposes. Following through with this, we need to accept Hitler as only good for us, planned and orchestrated by God with human will and works having nothing at all to do with it.
You all say we are to follow and admire the Greek way of thinking. Any thought of learning the Hebrew way is put down as absolutely wrong, yet most of the Old Testament was written in Hebrew to a Hebrew thinking people. Angela, who promotes this idea, even admits that when she studied this language it is a very different language, she is taking time to study it at the same time she says the idea of studying it is ----forgot the word she used to say it should not be done. Why, if we can't touch any Hebrew are we allowed all this Greek? What is the basis of allowing Greek and not allowing Hebrew?
I think it is possible that demons have influenced the organized church so much that talk of God's word is used to fight God. Christ is allowed and grace is allowed by these demons so far. Nothing else. These two ideas are truly the basics of God's plan for us, so demons are allowing God in the world but only these two truths of Him, nothing else. Anytime anyone posts anything else about scripture, posters gather to condemn anything else of God, so it is only used as a platform to put down God. I shudder at the direction the leaders of the church are taking us. Now they are trying to use my post to cancel the language, culture, and thought used in the Old Testament, and even often in the NT. We must watch, those who are Christian, that these posters don't start putting down grace and our salvation through Christ. So far, they are leaving that alone. We must guard it carefully.
You all say we are to follow and admire the Greek way of thinking. Any thought of learning the Hebrew way is put down as absolutely wrong, yet most of the Old Testament was written in Hebrew to a Hebrew thinking people. Angela, who promotes this idea, even admits that when she studied this language it is a very different language, she is taking time to study it at the same time she says the idea of studying it is ----forgot the word she used to say it should not be done. Why, if we can't touch any Hebrew are we allowed all this Greek? What is the basis of allowing Greek and not allowing Hebrew?
I think it is possible that demons have influenced the organized church so much that talk of God's word is used to fight God. Christ is allowed and grace is allowed by these demons so far. Nothing else. These two ideas are truly the basics of God's plan for us, so demons are allowing God in the world but only these two truths of Him, nothing else. Anytime anyone posts anything else about scripture, posters gather to condemn anything else of God, so it is only used as a platform to put down God. I shudder at the direction the leaders of the church are taking us. Now they are trying to use my post to cancel the language, culture, and thought used in the Old Testament, and even often in the NT. We must watch, those who are Christian, that these posters don't start putting down grace and our salvation through Christ. So far, they are leaving that alone. We must guard it carefully.
Where on earth did I say we should not know anything about the language or culture of the Hebrew, Greek or Roman?? I went to Seminary for 7 part time years to learn those very things, and I use them every day! I love both Hebrew and Greek, reading and studying the Bible in their original languages. I know many here study both Covenants to understand God's purpose and plan.
My thought is you need to seriously study both Hebrew and Greek, before you come on the internet and make so many sweeping generalizations about your theories about language and culture. Even at 89, there is nothing to stop you from doing this. Bill Mounce has the website, teknia.com, which offers courses in both languages. If you want, I can even send you the class lectures to go with the Hebrew. I think you need to focus on learning these biblical languages, and then you will begin to understand that God can use anything to convey his truths to the world.
We are certainly not dependent on any "Hebrew mindset" to grow as Christians. But learning more about the Bible is ALWAYS a good thing!
My thought is you need to seriously study both Hebrew and Greek, before you come on the internet and make so many sweeping generalizations about your theories about language and culture. Even at 89, there is nothing to stop you from doing this. Bill Mounce has the website, teknia.com, which offers courses in both languages. If you want, I can even send you the class lectures to go with the Hebrew. I think you need to focus on learning these biblical languages, and then you will begin to understand that God can use anything to convey his truths to the world.
We are certainly not dependent on any "Hebrew mindset" to grow as Christians. But learning more about the Bible is ALWAYS a good thing!
Angela: First you speak these words: "Please let go of this Hebrew nonsense that has lead you so far astray! ". There are four people who have read and decided to agree with all you said to make these words the sum of your post. Now you say that it is OK to study, and even accuse me of never studying anything, You seem to think that you are the expert in sources of study and only yours is authentic, all my time looking into this is from the "wrong source"?? You seem to feel that every single thing you say is correct while you question and accuse anything anyone else says. "sweeping generalizations" for instance, never trying to sum up. Your study of language is right on, anyone else's is not. I have tried to get to the essence and summation of these things, I feel at my age trying to learn the language itself is impractical. I can just HEAR your judgments of that!!
You can't even seem to make up your mind on what your judgments of me are, changing your tune from one post to the next, with the only consistent thing you can say is to point out that if I suggest thinking about something, you are here to point out how wrong I am.
Learning and speaking of the Lord and His ways are not reflected in your posts, only making negative judgments. It is only "Hebrew nonsense" and "sweeping generalizations" judgments.
You can't even seem to make up your mind on what your judgments of me are, changing your tune from one post to the next, with the only consistent thing you can say is to point out that if I suggest thinking about something, you are here to point out how wrong I am.
Learning and speaking of the Lord and His ways are not reflected in your posts, only making negative judgments. It is only "Hebrew nonsense" and "sweeping generalizations" judgments.
I should think that it would be very evident how it would help. I found it very helpful, for instance, to study about the people of the towns mentioned in NT letters.
One would be in the first chapter of Genesis. People today would like to know---without using any symbols---exactly the time frame God used to create the world and how God did it. The Hebrews at that time heard this to say God created the world, that is what we need to know and we will use that knowledge. They would have thought us very strange to ask God to explain how, when, and the method used to do this. That wasn't the way they thought.
I found it helpful to know that early people didn't isolate doing from emotion as we do. I have often heard people with no understanding of the Hebrew culture say that the OT only spoke of legalistic obedience for we are perfectly capable of dong something with no emotional involvement. After thousands of years, people like the Pharisees were able to do this, but it was a later development.
There were many saying at that time, many things bible talks of that without knowing what they meant to people at different times in the bible, we don't understand. For instance the use of salt is spoken of from earliest times through to the time of Christ. One of the earliest uses of salt was to seal a covenant between people. They carried a little leather pouch of it, and when a friendship and working together between people was sealed, it was by mixing salt from each of these packets. To break that covenant, each grain of salt would need to be separated from the other. There are bible passages mentioning this that early people understood, but we don't.
One would be in the first chapter of Genesis. People today would like to know---without using any symbols---exactly the time frame God used to create the world and how God did it. The Hebrews at that time heard this to say God created the world, that is what we need to know and we will use that knowledge. They would have thought us very strange to ask God to explain how, when, and the method used to do this. That wasn't the way they thought.
I found it helpful to know that early people didn't isolate doing from emotion as we do. I have often heard people with no understanding of the Hebrew culture say that the OT only spoke of legalistic obedience for we are perfectly capable of dong something with no emotional involvement. After thousands of years, people like the Pharisees were able to do this, but it was a later development.
There were many saying at that time, many things bible talks of that without knowing what they meant to people at different times in the bible, we don't understand. For instance the use of salt is spoken of from earliest times through to the time of Christ. One of the earliest uses of salt was to seal a covenant between people. They carried a little leather pouch of it, and when a friendship and working together between people was sealed, it was by mixing salt from each of these packets. To break that covenant, each grain of salt would need to be separated from the other. There are bible passages mentioning this that early people understood, but we don't.
RedTent I'm always open to new ideas and things that will help me know and understand God better. So I'm not against you on this. I'm trying to understand how knowledge of Hebrew culture can give me better understanding.
I don't see how the Hebrew mind set gives any more revelation to the time frame of creation or how he did it. God said "and the evening and the morning were the first day" etc... the days are 24 hours and it took 7 days to complete creation. I believe that, I use that knowledge in my bible studies. So I don't see how Hebrew culture helps me at all in this case.
The apparent legalism of the law is a foreshadowing of Christ... every Old Testament law points to New Testament principles. No one has ever been saved by keeping the law. I didn't learn that from studying Hebrew culture, I learned that from bible reading.
Can you give an example of how the Hebrew understanding of salt has benefited you? What scripture do you understand better? Those things you mentioned about salt is Hebrew mysticism... God never told them to separate each grain of salt that I'm aware of. Where are those passages that mention this?
I don't see how the Hebrew mind set gives any more revelation to the time frame of creation or how he did it. God said "and the evening and the morning were the first day" etc... the days are 24 hours and it took 7 days to complete creation. I believe that, I use that knowledge in my bible studies. So I don't see how Hebrew culture helps me at all in this case.
The apparent legalism of the law is a foreshadowing of Christ... every Old Testament law points to New Testament principles. No one has ever been saved by keeping the law. I didn't learn that from studying Hebrew culture, I learned that from bible reading.
Can you give an example of how the Hebrew understanding of salt has benefited you? What scripture do you understand better? Those things you mentioned about salt is Hebrew mysticism... God never told them to separate each grain of salt that I'm aware of. Where are those passages that mention this?
You have decided to read about creation with a western mind set and that is your decision, so learning of another way of looking at it is not going to be possible for you. To you, it is not important that God did the creating in His own way and didn't share it all with you, God told you 7 days, and you are going to hang onto that no matter what. When he added light (or in Hebrew "owr") that was light and nothing else, you hang your hat on that and no learning anything else would matter. God also created light on the fourth day, extra light don't you think? And this darkness that was there the first day of creation is not to be thought about, for sure.
The way Hebrews looked at doing does not affect any way of seeing how scripture was written, and again that is your decision, and you will stand by it. To you, it has no meaning deeper or more than a foreshadowing of Christ. So any learning about how the people this was written to originally knew salt to be has no bearing on your interpretation of scripture and affects you in no way.
You really don't care about what the meaning of salt to the people it was written about, you want something personal God does for just you, and the understanding of the people it was first written to has no meaning for you.
What you are saying, that for you there is no studying that could help you, you have it all down pat and understand perfectly, already. I would suggest you just skip this post---you have Christ and that is really what scripture is all about. The rest is just fluff and for bible scholars into such strange stuff.
Learning anything about this could be compared to such as learning about the people of Corinth to understand Paul better, completely unnecessary for you.
The way Hebrews looked at doing does not affect any way of seeing how scripture was written, and again that is your decision, and you will stand by it. To you, it has no meaning deeper or more than a foreshadowing of Christ. So any learning about how the people this was written to originally knew salt to be has no bearing on your interpretation of scripture and affects you in no way.
You really don't care about what the meaning of salt to the people it was written about, you want something personal God does for just you, and the understanding of the people it was first written to has no meaning for you.
What you are saying, that for you there is no studying that could help you, you have it all down pat and understand perfectly, already. I would suggest you just skip this post---you have Christ and that is really what scripture is all about. The rest is just fluff and for bible scholars into such strange stuff.
Learning anything about this could be compared to such as learning about the people of Corinth to understand Paul better, completely unnecessary for you.
K
So I'm a fool because of posting scripture that lends to the use of Hebrew tongue? Perhaps you should put on your "big boy" pants and try civil discussion sir. So far I've not read anything from you except your opinion with not one shred of a hint of anything to back it up.
Keep in mind the title of the thread. I have just as much right to post my thoughts as you do.
Keep in mind the title of the thread. I have just as much right to post my thoughts as you do.
K
From the eminent first century Yahudite (sn-Jew) historian, priest, and scholar Josephus admitted that he could not speak Greek fluently and that the Yahudite (sn-Jew) frowned on any Yahudite (sn-Jew) who did. "I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understanding the elements of the Greek language although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own language, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness: for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations" (Antiquities, 20:11:2).
If Josephus was unable to speak Greek sufficiently, how could the uneducated disciples write their books in Greek? Why would they even want to do so?
Paul said, For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
The New Testament is a continuation of the Old, not a cancellation of the Old, so why switch to pagan Greek?
Does arguing for a Greek New Testament bring one closer to the truth, or take one further from it, knowing that the Old Testament is a thoroughly Hebrew work?
If Josephus was unable to speak Greek sufficiently, how could the uneducated disciples write their books in Greek? Why would they even want to do so?
Paul said, For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
The New Testament is a continuation of the Old, not a cancellation of the Old, so why switch to pagan Greek?
Does arguing for a Greek New Testament bring one closer to the truth, or take one further from it, knowing that the Old Testament is a thoroughly Hebrew work?