Mystery, Babylon the Great - earthly Jerusalem?

[doulos]

This prophecy, this 7 sealed covenant scroll of Revelation, had to do with the covenant people of the earth (equals land). So yes it was to Old Covenant Israel,

And here I always thought it was written to Christ’s sevants. So are you suggesting Christ was in error when He said “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants” Aren't all believer’s Christ’s servants?

No point addressing the rest of your post after all if one starts with a false assumption and builds false assumption upon false assumption the whole house of cards will eventually fall.

 

[Stephen63]

Revelation 17:5 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

If the Catholic church was the "mother religion", Who then are her daughters? I suspect those denominations that are so much like her....... in worship style, beliefs, etc.,etc....
It would also seem that such "daughters" would be haters of the true church, & especially of Israel.

It would be ironic to discover that those who do their grandest to blame Israel for everything would be the very "daughters" of the real McCoy. Ironic indeed..... What a plan.....sounds like something an illuminist would do...... get right in the middle of things & play the blame game to remove suspicion from themselves.

I'm sure that after this bit of trivia something will break loose.

 

[Abiding]

So now the blood of ALL slain upon the earth doesn’t really mean all it only means the blood of the righteous from Abel to Zacharias and the prophets?
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Wouldn’t all include every human that was ever or will ever be murdered? How does Israel contain the blood of the unrighteous murdered here in the U.S. or China or Kenya or Pakistan or Iraq and the list goes on and on. As I said before for Babylon to include the blood of all that were slain upon the earth she cannot be constrained by time or location! This would effectively rule out Babylon being a literal city or any single false religion. So I ask whose logic is flawed?

reread verse 35....sorry but what Jesus said in Matthew contains what He said in Revelation.

 

[Abiding]

personality agendas that fuel logical acrobatics
just isnt a very trustworthy hermeneutic....but it can be entertaining

 

[doulos]

personality agendas that fuel logical acrobatics
just isnt a very trustworthy hermeneutic....but it can be entertaining

Yes I do get a kick out of it when you employ those tactics.

 

[doulos]

reread verse 35....sorry but what Jesus said in Matthew contains what He said in Revelation.

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Mat_23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Once again for Babylon to contain the blood of ALL would mean even the blood of the unrighteous and those still to be slain on into the future. Mat23:35 makes no mention of those people so the verse does not prove Jerusalem is Babylon. Once again I must point out that no literal city can meet the Scriptural requirements of Rev18:24.

Do you believe Babylon is a holy city? (I don't think you do, correct me if you do) Babylon is not holy so how could the holy city of Jerusalem be Babylon?
Mat_27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Rev_11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

 

[damombomb]

I can't see it as earthly Jerusalem because of these scriptures:
Mattew24;3 And as he sat upon the Mt Olives ,the disciples said tell us what shall be the sign of thy coming, and the end of
the world
Matthew,24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor shall ever be
Matthew 24:29 Immediately, after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heaven shall be shaken
Daniel 12:1And at that time Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting contempt.

Daniel is informed of the times
Daniel12:5-13
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. [SUP]6 [/SUP]One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”
[SUP]7 [/SUP]The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time.[SUP][a][/SUP] When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”
[SUP]8 [/SUP]I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”
[SUP]9 [/SUP]He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]“From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

Revelation 13:2-10

[SUP]2 [/SUP]The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. [SUP]3 [/SUP]One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. [SUP]4 [/SUP]People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”
[SUP]5 [/SUP]The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. [SUP]6 [/SUP]It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. [SUP]7 [/SUP]It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. [SUP]8 [/SUP]All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.[SUP][a][/SUP]
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Whoever has ears, let them hear.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]“If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity they will go.
If anyone is to be killed[SUP][b][/SUP] with the sword,
with the sword they will be killed.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.
[h=4][/h]

 

[Abiding]

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Mat_23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Once again for Babylon to contain the blood of ALL would mean even the blood of the unrighteous and those still to be slain on into the future. Mat23:35 makes no mention of those people so the verse does not prove Jerusalem is Babylon. Once again I must point out that no literal city can meet the Scriptural requirements of Rev18:24.

Do you believe Babylon is a holy city? (I don't think you do, correct me if you do) Babylon is not holy so how could the holy city of Jerusalem be Babylon?
Mat_27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Rev_11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

yes but your stretching....the texts say nothing to force into them what your forcing. What was the Holyspirits
intent? you can do this with any doctrine. Theres a name for it.

Ive not posted much in this thread...but ive read all of it. But Israel and Jerusalem have alot of names
attached to it. Not just the holy city...a desolate city that was judged and destroyed...was that the same holy city?

You can read it how you like and impose hard to fit requirements on the text all you want...but a passive
reading of Matthew lines up well with Revelation. IMO but i understand we all have make our own determination
with scripture.

 

[Abiding]

Yes I do get a kick out of it when you employ those tactics.

what tactic? do you think i have some personal agenda with you?

 

[doulos]

yes but your stretching....the texts say nothing to force into them what your forcing. What was the Holyspirits
intent? you can do this with any doctrine. Theres a name for it.

Ive not posted much in this thread...but ive read all of it. But Israel and Jerusalem have alot of names
attached to it. Not just the holy city...a desolate city that was judged and destroyed...was that the same holy city?

You can read it how you like and impose hard to fit requirements on the text all you want...but a passive
reading of Matthew lines up well with Revelation. IMO but i understand we all have make our own determination
with scripture.

Actually it is you that is trying to force fit Scripture to your doctrine instead of adjusting your doctrine to fit Scripture. Let’s have a look.

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mat23:35 only places the blood of the righteous Abel to Zacharias on Jerusalem but the blood of all slain upon the earth would include the blood of both the righteous and unrighteous through out all time and locations. What about the blood of the righteous slain after Zacharias or the blood of the unrighteous? Now if you can show me where Jerusalem has the blood of all then I would certainly be willing to reconsider my position but as of yet no one has demonstrated how any one location or religious system during a set time frame system contains the blood of all. As I have said before I don’t have all the answers but I don’t believe we can take the verses in Matthew and forcefit them to make them say Jerusalem contains the blood of all that were slain upon the earth when Mat23:35 only holds Jerusalem responsible for those that are righteous from Abel to Zacharias, but makes no mention of the blood of the unrighteous or the blood of the righteous slain after Zacharias. Wouldn’t all include the blood of those people also? Maybe it is time to just agree to disagree.

May God bless your studies, as you are led friend, as you are led!

 

[Hoffco]

doulos is right. Mt.23:35 is of the blood of those killed in Jerusalem , But Rev.18:24 is blood from all over the earth. This is not the doing of the pharisees and the false Jewish rulers of the Old. Testament time. The city is Rev. 18 is Rome, Italy, the seat of the Rom. Cath. Ch. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[doulos]

what tactic? do you think i have some personal agenda with you?

Sorry about that. Instead of saying you I should have put the name of the one who has the presonal agenda. You know the one who continually lies and says I teach dual covenat theology which says that Jews may simply be saved by adhering to the law. Clearly I teach no such thing. Regardles of whether one is an Old Testament believer (like Moses or Daniel) or a New Testament believer (like you and I ), from Adam to Christ's return the only method of salvation is to be born again. No one from Adam until Christ's return has been or will ever be saved by adhering to the law. So for one to lie and say I espouse something I don't clearly shows that person has an agenda. I do get a laugh out of it considering that false accusation is totally ridiculous!

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
1Co 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

 

[doulos]

doulos is right. Mt.23:35 is of the blood of those killed in Jerusalem , But Rev.18:24 is blood from all over the earth. This is not the doing of the pharisees and the false Jewish rulers of the Old. Testament time. The city is Rev. 18 is Rome, Italy, the seat of the Rom. Cath. Ch. Love to all, Hoffco

Did Rome exist when Cain murdered Abel? Sorry friend Rome doesn't fit either.

 

[Hoffco]

douilos, where in Revelation do you read of the blood of Abel? NO WHERE ! What other city in the world is build on 7 hills? What other city houses the Roman catholic church, which has killed millions in the name of Jesus. Love to all Hoffco

 

[doulos]

douilos, where in Revelation do you read of the blood of Abel? NO WHERE ! What other city in the world is build on 7 hills? What other city houses the Roman catholic church, which has killed millions in the name of Jesus. Love to all Hoffco

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Wouldn't the blood of all slain upon the earth include the blood of Abel who was murdered by his brother Cain? Is there any literal city that has existed from the time Cain murdered Abel on into our future when the last person to be slain upon this earth is slain? If not then we must understand that this is figurative language representing something that is not constrained by time or location and not a literal city.

 

[Hoffco]

When we read the Bible we must remember: God revealed truth in bits and pieces. Between Dan 12:12&13 there is a gap of 1,000 yrs. The resurrection of the righteous is before the 1,000 millennium and the resurrection of the wicked dead is after the millennium. Revelation is the key to putting all of prophecy together. A few key verses in the rest of the N.T. help fill in some spots in Rev. prophecy; But it all has to fit into Revelation. Rev. is a literal history book of these last 2,000 yrs of history, with a lot of symbolic and allegorical spots in Rev. but the overall structure of Rev. in history. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

All of the Bible is talking of literal history, you can not interpret history as symbolic, the Bible often speaks of history in symbolic terms ;BUT always give us enough facts to local the historical places and dates which correspond to secular dates, This proves the Bible to be God's word , the 'Bible dates match the secular authors dates. Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

doulos, The point I am making is: Mt.23:35 does not match Rev. 18:24. There is 2,000 yrs between them. Yes ,I will accept that .the blood of Abel is referred to in Rev. 18 Hoffco.

 

[doulos]

doulos, The point I am making is: Mt.23:35 does not match Rev. 18:24. There is 2,000 yrs between them. Yes ,I will accept that .the blood of Abel is referred to in Rev. 18 Hoffco.

Not sure where you are getting the 2000 years. Afterall Cain murdered Abel roughly 6000 years ago and people are still being murdered today and will be on into our future. So clearly the figurative language that describes Babylon as a city must be referring to a system of some sort that has existed for roughly 6000 years already and will continue to exist until the last person to be slain upon this earth is slain. That effectively eliminates a literal city and demonstrates that she is not constrained by time or location.

May God bless your studies!

 

[Abiding]

well actually the thread interests me...but the toughguy personalities dont.
its fun sometimes to debate,,especially since im not completely convinced
i understand any of it perfectly...but it aint worth a blackeye