Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

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Mar 14, 2011
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Funny, how one can see "works = Salvation."

Another sees "works", as the "keeping" of one's "election" assured! :unsure:

One sees Salvation ONLY! One sees Election! :unsure:
Thats is two ways of saying the same thing.. So it is easy to understand why someone woud ask that question.

If I have to work to continue to make my salvation assured.. I am trying to save myself. My faith is not In God keepinng his promise and making sure I am never let God and He WILL (not might) Continue his work in me until the day of Christ.
 
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Yes he can But that is not what Nehimiah was taling about. He was talking about my STILL unanswered question of how fatalism has survive with a person being justified and regenerated (born again) in the same microsecond.
Sorry. I'll have to look that post up. :)
 
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I am still trying to figure this out.

One goes from not having the ability to understand God. Not seeking for God. Hating God, and in total rebellion. To in one micro second being born again, have the ability to understand (but no time to learn) seeking for God, loving God and on their knees asking God for mercy in faith which makes them justified.

Thats alot of stuff happening in one mocro second.
I can tell you that I was raised in church, made a profession of faith at an early age, in childhood, (but I don't think I was converted because of ensuing events), began using drugs in early teens, mocked Christianity in mid teens, fascination and dabbling in occult, late teens, full blown hater of God, early twenties, blasphemer, early twenties, heavy drugs, started hearing and seeing things that weren't there, thought Satan wanted to enter my body, was terrified of being alone or walking into a dark room...

One night in a terror called out to God to help me. Holy Spirit shone a bright light, filled with sorrow over my sin, called on Jesus' name, and all that garbage fell of of me instantly. No more drugs, no more hate, no more blasphemy, no more fear. Total and radical change.

Whole thing happened almost instantly. Since then I have had struggles and have not always been the man I am called to be, but God has kept me, and I know if He didn't, I would have fallen away long ago
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I can tell you that I was raised in church, made a profession of faith at an early age, in childhood, (but I don't think I was converted because of ensuing events), began using drugs in early teens, mocked Christianity in mid teens, fascination and dabbling in occult, late teens, full blown hater of God, early twenties, blasphemer, early twenties, heavy drugs, started hearing and seeing things that weren't there, thought Satan wanted to enter my body, was terrified of being alone or walking into a dark room...

One night in a terror called out to God to help me. Holy Spirit shone a bright light, filled with sorrow over my sin, called on Jesus' name, and all that garbage fell of of me instantly. No more drugs, no more hate, no more blasphemy, no more fear. Total and radical change.

Whole thing happened almost instantly. Since then I have had struggles and have not always been the man I am called to be, but God has kept me, and I know if He didn't, I would have fallen away long ago
Same happened with me, I felt God drawing for along time. In fact prayed multiple times.. But it was nto until a moment when someone stood me down and explained in deatail the gospel that I Believe my faith became clear. And that moment I was justified and Regenerated.

But in fatalism. All this drawing and us seeking could never happen. UNTIL we are regenerated first. Because until then we could nto understand, Would not seek. And would never want anythign to do with God.

All those things happen the split second we are regenerated, then justification and faith accurs in that sime microsecond.
 
On my part, I do not think works secures and keeps my election. If it was based on works, I would have split hell wide open long ago. Election is based on the Grace of God, which called me, regenerated me, justified me, sanctified me, keeps me, cleanses me continuously, the Son who intercedes for me, the Spirit who intercedes for me and keeps me on the path, and the God who makes me stand. The works part is all to His Glory, for He Works in us to will and to do. The only credit I take is when I don't live up to His Calling, when I fall short, that's all me, when I am doing well, it is God working in me

The key. Am I minding the things of the flesh or of the Spirit? When we walk in the Spirit, we have Victory in Jesus.

We have already won for He won. Walking in the Spirit is walking in the full blessing of the victory Christ won over sin, death, the devil, the grave, and my flesh

2 Peter 1
5 And beside this, giving all dillegence (works/efforts), add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give dilligence (works/efforts) to make your calling and election sure: for IF ye DO these things (?), ye shall never fall:

...and here yet, is another "area" (if you will), where "brethern" (and I use the term loosely), "falsely accuse" other brethern in their "works for Salvation" doctrine!
1 Corinthians 12
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly (this takes works/efforts, also) the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

I know, it is hard for some in understanding, that Paul, that great Apostle was sent in a 2 fold ministry! In like a 60 to 40 percent application.

The 40% of which was in showing God's MERCY to whosoever WILL, May Come!

The 60%, is that BECAUSE of the 40%? It WOULD PROVOKE Israel to jealousy!

And, if ya trust me? This is FINALLY starting to have its impact on Israel! Making God's smile even larger! :)
 
Dec 27, 2018
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A
2 Peter 1
5 And beside this, giving all dillegence (works/efforts), add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give dilligence (works/efforts) to make your calling and election sure: for IF ye DO these things (?), ye shall never fall:

...and here yet, is another "area" (if you will), where "brethern" (and I use the term loosely), "falsely accuse" other brethern in their "works for Salvation" doctrine!
1 Corinthians 12
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly (this takes works/efforts, also) the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

I know, it is hard for some in understanding, that Paul, that great Apostle was sent in a 2 fold ministry! In like a 60 to 40 percent application.

The 40% of which was in showing God's MERCY to whosoever WILL, May Come!

The 60%, is that BECAUSE of the 40%? It WOULD PROVOKE Israel to jealousy!

And, if ya trust me? This is FINALLY starting to have its impact on Israel! Making God's smile even larger! :)
Romans 11:33
Same happened with me, I felt God drawing for along time. In fact prayed multiple times.. But it was nto until a moment when someone stood me down and explained in deatail the gospel that I Believe my faith became clear. And that moment I was justified and Regenerated.

But in fatalism. All this drawing and us seeking could never happen. UNTIL we are regenerated first. Because until then we could nto understand, Would not seek. And would never want anythign to do with God.

All those things happen the split second we are regenerated, then justification and faith accurs in that sime microsecond.
Understood and agree 😊
 
I can tell you that I was raised in church, made a profession of faith at an early age, in childhood, (but I don't think I was converted because of ensuing events), began using drugs in early teens, mocked Christianity in mid teens, fascination and dabbling in occult, late teens, full blown hater of God, early twenties, blasphemer, early twenties, heavy drugs, started hearing and seeing things that weren't there, thought Satan wanted to enter my body, was terrified of being alone or walking into a dark room...

One night in a terror called out to God to help me. Holy Spirit shone a bright light, filled with sorrow over my sin, called on Jesus' name, and all that garbage fell of of me instantly. No more drugs, no more hate, no more blasphemy, no more fear. Total and radical change.

Whole thing happened almost instantly. Since then I have had struggles and have not always been the man I am called to be, but God has kept me, and I know if He didn't, I would have fallen away long ago
WOW! PRAISE God for answered prayer!!

My testimony is strikingly similar to yers! Save, for "the EVENT!" Is what I call it.
Although, It wasn't until I had answered "the call", ("Are ya ready yet?"), some 2 er 3 years previous. To which, I had refused it, the previous 2 er 3 times, I had heard it over the previous 15 years er so.

And, it wasn't my asking, or calling out for Jesus. And, it wasn't expected! I had just "walked away" from doing crack cocaine! (come to find out later? something that people simply don't do!). Went through some pretty ungodly visions, as satan, was pissed, during my withdrawals of it.

(fast forwards several weeks)

And, I was just sitting in the house, watching TV, minding my own business. And, WHAM!! This "feeling of love", just started coming over me! Which at first, was pretty cool! But, it didn't stop! It just kept coming and growing in intensity, until I started getting sacred! And, it still didn't stop! That feeling of crying, and puking, and creamin' my jeans, and shittin' my drawers! Like a dead man, I was! And, I was with, or IN this "presence of love", as I looked at my body MELTED all over the floor like a thick oil! With nothing but my heart, sticking out beating! And, this voice says to me? "Hey!" "How ya doin'?" "Just coming to "check up" on ya!" I asked it to stop, as it was becoming unbearable in "controlling the dignity" of my flesh! :)
I could feel it kinda grin and smile, while telling me: "This is just a "sliver of fingernail" of my Glory!" "I know how much you can take!" "And, yes!" "Any MORE?" "And, it would KILL you!"

He also told me? "Get USED to it!" "Cuz, I ain't goin' NOWHERES!" "And, I'm going to "grow" in you MORE!" "In porportion, to your gaining knowledge, and training, and disciplines!" "Cuz, "young man?" "You have been awarded, "Acts ATTRIBUTABLE towards righteousness!" "Now, let's get you educated correctly, so's that you can start to "UN-Grieveing" MY Holy spirit!" (which is giving me cause in wondering if THIS, is what's seen, by others, as "works for Salvation!" These efforts in Un-Grieveing!)

This whole "event", lasted some 20 minutes er so, as far as I can remember.
Needless to say, I was like a "cat trying to cover up shit, on a marble floor", in my searchings! I even enrolled in "home study" courses, from Moody Bible Institute. $500.00 worth! Which was pretty costly to this "poor truck driving out of the quarry rock hauler!" :p

I had mailed in my first lesson. It was like diagramming a sentence. Only it was the whole book of Jonah! Got it back with a B-, which I thought was not too shabby! And, started into the 2nd lesson? When that same voice asked me, "You want "them", to teach you?" "Or, you want ME to teach you?" The BEST 500 bucks I ever threw away! ;)
He led me to watch the Shepherds Chapel, and purchase the Companion Bible, also referred to as "Bullinger's Bible", and Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.


My life has been never the same since!

So, yeah man! PRAISE God! For answering prayer!
And Praise God, in answering those, who aren't even looking for answers!

I had actually thought, I had "walked away" from crack, on my own! Come to find out? I was MIS-informed! ;)
 

Jimbone

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Aug 22, 2014
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I can tell you that I was raised in church, made a profession of faith at an early age, in childhood, (but I don't think I was converted because of ensuing events), began using drugs in early teens, mocked Christianity in mid teens, fascination and dabbling in occult, late teens, full blown hater of God, early twenties, blasphemer, early twenties, heavy drugs, started hearing and seeing things that weren't there, thought Satan wanted to enter my body, was terrified of being alone or walking into a dark room...

One night in a terror called out to God to help me. Holy Spirit shone a bright light, filled with sorrow over my sin, called on Jesus' name, and all that garbage fell of of me instantly. No more drugs, no more hate, no more blasphemy, no more fear. Total and radical change.

Whole thing happened almost instantly. Since then I have had struggles and have not always been the man I am called to be, but God has kept me, and I know if He didn't, I would have fallen away long ago
Praise the God of mercy that forgives sinners like us. He transforms us and commands us "go, make disciples of ALL nations". I am still floored by His power and absolute brilliant glory. He is so good, and the even more amazing part, spiritual rebirth is just the very beginning, the walk is like nothing else. To draw closer to our Creator, in Christ, in truth, as we were created to be, is just like NOTHING the flesh can even offer, and we are so blind to it in the flesh. That is why I praise the Name above ALL, Jesus who laid down His sinless life so that a sinful fool like me (only use "me" because I only truly know "my" sins, but know I mean "all us") might be spiritually reconciled to our God who loved us like that, and perfectly demonstrated to us the way we are to love God and each other. Praise our Mighty God!!!:D:D:D:LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:(y)(y)(y)Whoop Whoop!
 

Budman

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Mar 9, 2014
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Is it possible for an unregenerate person to perservere in true saving faith?
After one becomes born again, can a Christian later walk away from Jesus and yet be saved?

Yep.

And just how do you know you personally will persevere until the end?

You don't. You simply hope you will.

What kind of evidences of true faith? Obedience, love, fruitbearing
People from other religions can generate the same fruit as Christians. They can be obedient to their god. They can love. They can be charitable. In fact, atheists can do the same.

Faith without works is dead.
Unproductive - yes. One can have little to no works, and yet remain saved. (1 Corinthians 3: 14-15). Our salvation isn't based on what we do after conversion. We were saved and will remain saved because our salvation is based on what Christ accomplished on our behalf. We have the very righteousness of Jesus credited to us. As long as Jesus remains, our salvation remains. It is a gift, and will forever remain such.

Is it necessary to love to be a Christian? He that loves not knows not God
Atheists love. Hindus love. Muslims love. Jews love. Mormons love. Jehovah's Witnesses love. Christian Scientists love. etc.

Do we believe because we are Christians, or are we Christians because we believe? Both, but we ARE BELIEVING present tense, because we are born of God. That is what 1 John 5:1 is saying
If one must continue to believe to remain saved, then our salvation is up to us. Jesus gets us initially saved and then says "now, it's all up to you."

That would be works for salvation rearing it's ugly head again.

Once one is born again into God's family, it is IMPOSSIBLE to become unborn. Just give ONE example from the Bible whereas one was saved and then lost their salvation.

Just one.
 

Hevosmies

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Sep 8, 2018
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After one becomes born again, can a Christian later walk away from Jesus and yet be saved?
So if I become a satan worshiper today, I am still saved? Never was a false convert? Genuinely saved?

Oy vey! False doctrine to the max.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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After one becomes born again, can a Christian later walk away from Jesus and yet be saved?

Yep.

And just how do you know you personally will persevere until the end?

You don't. You simply hope you will.



People from other religions can generate the same fruit as Christians. They can be obedient to their god. They can love. They can be charitable. In fact, atheists can do the same.



Unproductive - yes. One can have little to no works, and yet remain saved. (1 Corinthians 3: 14-15). Our salvation isn't based on what we do after conversion. We were saved and will remain saved because our salvation is based on what Christ accomplished on our behalf. We have the very righteousness of Jesus credited to us. As long as Jesus remains, our salvation remains. It is a gift, and will forever remain such.



Atheists love. Hindus love. Muslims love. Jews love. Mormons love. Jehovah's Witnesses love. Christian Scientists love. etc.



If one must continue to believe to remain saved, then our salvation is up to us. Jesus gets us initially saved and then says "now, it's all up to you."

That would be works for salvation rearing it's ugly head again.

Once one is born again into God's family, it is IMPOSSIBLE to become unborn. Just give ONE example from the Bible whereas one was saved and then lost their salvation.

Just one.
1 John 5 verse 1 says that everyone who is believes has been born of God. I don't know why you're disagreeing with me when all I did was agree with him.

1 John also says everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. So are you saying atheists and Budhists know God.

I try to base my doctrine in what the Bible says.

There is a love that is different from other loves. That is what John and I are talking about.

Atheists and Budhists love God and keep His commandments? How is that so when one of the commandments is to believe in the One He sent.

I never said anything about being saved and losing that salvation. That has nothing to do with anything I posted. What I said was that a person's continuing faith is evidence that they are born of God.

As John said, He who believes has been born of God.

If someone exercises intellectual assent to the Gospel, goes up and shakes the preachers hand, gets baptized, but there is no change in His life, is that evidence of conversion?

He who is born of God does not practice sin.

He who has this hope in Him purifies himself

Do we need to do these things to stay saved or are these things fruits of conversion.

I hold they are the latter

I recommend you read "the mortification of sin" by John Owen, who as a Calvinist certainly does not believe in works salvation or losing salvation. And I think he would probably agree with what I've said here
 

Jimbone

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Aug 22, 2014
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After one becomes born again, can a Christian later walk away from Jesus and yet be saved?

Yep.

And just how do you know you personally will persevere until the end?

You don't. You simply hope you will.



People from other religions can generate the same fruit as Christians. They can be obedient to their god. They can love. They can be charitable. In fact, atheists can do the same.



Unproductive - yes. One can have little to no works, and yet remain saved. (1 Corinthians 3: 14-15). Our salvation isn't based on what we do after conversion. We were saved and will remain saved because our salvation is based on what Christ accomplished on our behalf. We have the very righteousness of Jesus credited to us. As long as Jesus remains, our salvation remains. It is a gift, and will forever remain such.



Atheists love. Hindus love. Muslims love. Jews love. Mormons love. Jehovah's Witnesses love. Christian Scientists love. etc.



If one must continue to believe to remain saved, then our salvation is up to us. Jesus gets us initially saved and then says "now, it's all up to you."

That would be works for salvation rearing it's ugly head again.

Once one is born again into God's family, it is IMPOSSIBLE to become unborn. Just give ONE example from the Bible whereas one was saved and then lost their salvation.

Just one.
I actually agree with you that once we are reborn He will keep us, the thing I don't understand is why you would endorse a "works-less", or "don't work" salvation. What a powerless crock in my opinion, why would God save us to sit on our selfish asses? What's the point of that? I do not agree, our salvation will be evidenced by our works, by our lives, for sure. We are not saved to stay the same, I don't believe that's possible honestly. Also please understand that I get what you're saying, and like I said, I agree with the main point, what I don't understand is the point of saying something like-
"After one becomes born again, can a Christian later walk away from Jesus and yet be saved?
Yep.
And just how do you know you personally will persevere until the end?
You don't. You simply hope you will."

This makes our Savior look so weak and powerless it's almost offensive. Really? is this what you've experienced? I have to testify loudly that Jesus turned my whole world upside down, saving me from the fleshly problems that were crushing me, forever changing EVERYTHING in and about me. Now I spend most my time thinking about/praying to/speaking of/working for Him, and all by His grace and for His glory. I can never endorse or even make the case you just made. I don't think that's true, and I serve the truth and felt lead to point it out. Again please don't misunderstand, I do not think you meant it exactly how I'm speaking of it, I just think that this argument in particular should be tossed in the weak trash and that you should speak higher of the Savior of your soul.
 
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1 John 5 verse 1 says that everyone who is believes has been born of God. I don't know why you're disagreeing with me when all I did was agree with him.

1 John also says everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. So are you saying atheists and Budhists know God.

I try to base my doctrine in what the Bible says.

There is a love that is different from other loves. That is what John and I are talking about.

Atheists and Budhists love God and keep His commandments? How is that so when one of the commandments is to believe in the One He sent.

I never said anything about being saved and losing that salvation. That has nothing to do with anything I posted. What I said was that a person's continuing faith is evidence that they are born of God.

As John said, He who believes has been born of God.

If someone exercises intellectual assent to the Gospel, goes up and shakes the preachers hand, gets baptized, but there is no change in His life, is that evidence of conversion?

He who is born of God does not practice sin.

He who has this hope in Him purifies himself

Do we need to do these things to stay saved or are these things fruits of conversion.

I hold they are the latter

I recommend you read "the mortification of sin" by John Owen, who as a Calvinist certainly does not believe in works salvation or losing salvation. And I think he would probably agree with what I've said here
In addition to this, I think you would better understand what I am saying if you woul discern better when a statement is descriptive or prescriptive, and whether an action is caused by something or causative of something else. What I am talking about are things that are caused by the New Birth, not causative of it. Things that describe a true convert, not prescriptions to become a true convert
 

Jimbone

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Aug 22, 2014
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Amen, we work "BECAUSE OF" of salvation, not for it. :)
 

Budman

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Mar 9, 2014
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So if I become a satan worshiper today, I am still saved? Never was a false convert? Genuinely saved?

Oy vey! False doctrine to the max.
There certainly can be false converts. But if one, at a single moment in time, placed their faith (believed) in Jesus for salvation, that person is saved, and will remain saved, no matter what. To say one "must" or "will" do certain things to remain saved, or to "prove" they're saved, negates the very idea it's a gift.

Look at how the believers in the Corinthian church were behaving. These were saved people, who certainly weren't "proving" they were.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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I actually agree with you that once we are reborn He will keep us, the thing I don't understand is why you would endorse a "works-less", or "don't work" salvation.
I don't endorse it. I'm simply saying that after salvation, God doesn't override our free will, nor are we free of the "Old Man" - i.e., the "flesh." We will continue to sin until the day we die. We still have the free will choice to obey or disobey. Disobedience brings chastisement from the Lord, but our salvation is never in question.

I do not agree, our salvation will be evidenced by our works, by our lives, for sure.
What good works can a Christian do that an atheist or a member of another religion cannot do?

This makes our Savior look so weak and powerless it's almost offensive. Really?
Actually, it shows the power of what Jesus accomplished on the cross. He took our sin - all of it - upon Himself. We have nothing left to pay for. The sin issue has been dealt with. We have received in exchange, the actual holiness/righteousness of Jesus. We are as sinless as Christ is. When God looks at us, He sees a sinless child. It's the only way we can be "perfect" as our heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:48)

Jesus turned my whole world upside down, saving me from the fleshly problems that were crushing me, forever changing EVERYTHING in and about me. Now I spend most my time thinking about/praying to/speaking of/working for Him, and all by His grace and for His glory.
How many times do you sin a day?

I just think that this argument in particular should be tossed in the weak trash and that you should speak higher of the Savior of your soul.
I can think of no higher praise to give my savior than to say my salvation is not so weak as to be based upon my behavior. He did it all, and deserves all the glory. He will keep His promises to me. Promises that are not dangled over my head to keep me living in fear of losing what was freely given.
 

Jimbone

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Aug 22, 2014
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There certainly can be false converts. But if one, at a single moment in time, placed their faith (believed) in Jesus for salvation, that person is saved, and will remain saved, no matter what. To say one "must" or "will" do certain things to remain saved, or to "prove" they're saved, negates the very idea it's a gift.

Look at how the believers in the Corinthian church were behaving. These were saved people, who certainly weren't "proving" they were.
This is where we very much disagree, if you are saved you "will" do good works, but you will do them because it is now your nature to desire to be more like your Father. You deny this? If so why? Jesus has no power? If we are reborn and do nothing, what's the point? I think this is where you are mistaken brother, and I mean that with all love and respect, but if you are saved you WILL change, i.e. do works. Why are you so against "being" better? Guilt? You don't do anything for the Lord?
 

Jimbone

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Aug 22, 2014
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I don't endorse it. I'm simply saying that after salvation, God doesn't override our free will, nor are we free of the "Old Man" - i.e., the "flesh." We will continue to sin until the day we die. We still have the free will choice to obey or disobey. Disobedience brings chastisement from the Lord, but our salvation is never in question.



What good works can a Christian do that an atheist or a member of another religion cannot do?



Actually, it shows the power of what Jesus accomplished on the cross. He took our sin - all of it - upon Himself. We have nothing left to pay for. The sin issue has been dealt with. We have received in exchange, the actual holiness/righteousness of Jesus. We are as sinless as Christ is. When God looks at us, He sees a sinless child. It's the only way we can be "perfect" as our heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:48)



How many times do you sin a day?



I can think of no higher praise to give my savior than to say my salvation is not so weak as to be based upon my behavior. He did it all, and deserves all the glory. He will keep His promises to me. Promises that are not dangled over my head to keep me living in fear of losing what was freely given.
He did it all why? To keep me the same. That is pointless and stupid, and I don't serve a pointless stupid God, do you?
By the way I sin a lot less than I did in the flesh, everyday desiring to be molded more like Him, and am excited for it. What do you do, preach against works and changes in us, online everyday?
 
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There certainly can be false converts. But if one, at a single moment in time, placed their faith (believed) in Jesus for salvation, that person is saved, and will remain saved, no matter what. To say one "must" or "will" do certain things to remain saved, or to "prove" they're saved, negates the very idea it's a gift.

Look at how the believers in the Corinthian church were behaving. These were saved people, who certainly weren't "proving" they were.
It's not about remaining saved or proving you are saved, but James said show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works.

I think the Bible teaches that a person who has truly been born of God will want to do more than "get His ticket to heaven punched". There ate false conversions and true conversions. The false conversions gave a mere intellectual assent and lip service, but they were not born of God. There is a type of false faith that does not lead to conversion.

As far as the Corinthians, we are not saying Christians are faultless. I have my share of faults, as I'm sure we all do. But if we are His Sheep we love Him and follow. If we go astray, He goes after us. That is why we keep believing, and we are kept by the power of God through faith, same way we are initially saved.

As far as losing salvation, isn't it BAD enough that not abiding in Him robs us of the fulness of peace and joy, hurts God's heart, robs us of the fulness of intimacy with God that we might otherwise have, hurts our testimony, can cause others to stumble in their faith, loss of reward, shamr etc, , to be motivation enough to abide without fearing loss of salvation


These things we write so that your JOY may be full, that you may have fellowship, that you might know, etc...