Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

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Macabeus

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Dec 27, 2018
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If a person lives their life in such a manner, there is no scriptural reason for that person to assume that he or she is a believer. See 1 John 4 So your question is faulty.

A true believer will fall, may even lapse for a long time in some cases. But like a sheep that by nature will not dwell in mud like a pig (just an analogy), they won't want to stay there,m. It is not in a sheeps nature to dwell in mud.
W
 

Budman

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Mar 9, 2014
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A true believer will fall, may even lapse for a long time in some cases. But like a sheep that by nature will not dwell in mud like a pig (just an analogy), they won't want to stay there,m. It is not in a sheeps nature to dwell in mud.
Again, if the believer, while in a "lapsed" state should die - would it be heaven or hell for them?

And when is the "cut off" time?
 
Mar 14, 2011
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If a person lives their life in such a manner, there is no scriptural reason for that person to assume that he or she is a believer. So your question is faulty.

A true believer will fall, may even lapse for a long time in some cases. But like a sheep that by nature will not dwell in mud like a pig (just an analogy), they won't want to stay there,m. It is not in a sheeps nature to dwell in mud.
The prodigal child left his father, we are not told how long he was gone, it could have been a few years for all we know, if he died before he came back, would he have ceased to be his fathers son?
 

Jimbone

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Aug 22, 2014
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I have to be honest, still sin, but I know that when I sin willfully, it is a choice of the will. I like what R.C Sproul said, "when we sin, it is because our desire for what was tempting is greater than our desire to be obey Christ. Woe!. Such a thought is appalling to me, that I could choose sin over Christ. It is a terrible thing. I want to love Jesus more so I sin less, and I want to sin less because I love Jesus. I need to walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh. Because I want to know Him and the power of His Resurrection. I do not consider myself to have already attained or perfect, but this I do, forgetting the things that are behind, I press forward to the prize of the high calling. And I need God's grace and power EVERY step of the way.

I want to perfect holiness in the fear of the LORD. So help me God...

A saint hungers for holiness. We are already positionally holy, and we strive for practical holiness more and more, for HE is Holy.
Yes I agree 1,000%. I do too, but do you also see how we got to the root of the problem here, it really raised a red flag when Budman spoke of the "works for salvation/as evidence of salvation" like they were interchangeable and the same argument, as if they aren't two COMPLETELY different things. Then the whole "if works are evidence of salvation, are the Mormons saved" argument was very telling because that is a argument solely from the flesh. Almost every argument he is making seemed to be coming from the same "fleshly foundation" as well. And I understand, I too felt the same way before the old man was put to death and by Gods grace I was granted repentance and was born again, my spirit was made alive and reconciled to His Spirit. and like you said "And I need God's grace and power EVERY step of the way.", couldn't agree more and will and that this is also why He gets all credit, these "works" are a direct result of our new nature, they are the "side effect" of being spiritual born again, you are now "that e=which is born of the Spirit, by His grace and now anything I do is His to claim all the glory for, any "work" I do I only do by His power and He rightfully gets all the credit, and I am still in complete awe that He is so overwhelmingly "GOOD!!!", only God is good, and I praise Him in Jesus name.

That is the only way I can see these things, the only way any of us see these things, and when we hear things like "the old man is put to death sometime later", or the only other example I can think of when I actually said "you are not saved if ______", was when a professing Christian said that the Father did not put the wrath due to Him on Jesus, that Jesus wasn't crushed by the Father for his sin, and that the very idea of God punishing Jesus for pour sin would make God a monster. Really. I told him that if Jesus didn't paid his price, then God wrath was still abiding on him. I truly hope I am not giving the impression at all I am claiming I or anyone other than Jesus is or was sinless.

I know we are being sanctified and your post describes it beautifully, but this I also see as Budmans "go to, gotcha" deception, almost like his very foundation, the question "but you still sin right?", to which we always have to say "yes", but this is not even what I'm speaking about, and count how many times he ask it. the thing is I agree we still sin, I never once suggested we didn't it just seems you get offended by the suggestion the Jesus changes peoples whole nature and this changes results in "works" Oh the dreaded word, I mean we can't promote working for Jesus, no sir. I just see this as ridiculous. The problem I see here is the whole message is, "Once saved always saved, repeat this prayer, okay your in and remember first and foremost we will still always sin. There can be no change in you and remember works is the worst thing a Christian can do, just kick back and remember "You still sin". I just think this is a set up for a church full of well meaning false converts, like "I was for a good long while". I remember why this was so appealing, and while I don't believe this is how they thing about it, and I was being a bit tongue cheek, I felt this way for 5 years without knowing Him. I hope it was also made apparent where his misunderstanding are and God was just using this to grow him in truth. More than that I pray God shows him I was only saying these things in love because there was an apparent breakdown in his spiritual understanding of the truth.

To be honest I hate the back and forth on here endlessly over every single detail (of course this holds true anywhere people talk about anything online, not just "here"), and really never even listening to each other and both attacking straw men . I truly find face to face interaction to be on such a higher level that I have honestly been all but ignoring online chat completely, but this conversation has kind of reminded me that God uses all things for His glory, and that maybe He can grow me in this way as well, regardless it's all for His glory. Have a great day brother, and may He draw you and your family closer everyday, in Jesus name. Amen.
 
Jan 3, 2019
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I think people do not want to believe that God would make some vessels for destruction because they feel that would be unfair but really if God is God he created us and knew sin would enter the world and not all would be saved isn't really the end is the same. If God had the power to save but left us to our fallen natures does that make Him less "unfair"? So if He looked down the "tunnel of time" and saw that I would choose Him and Susie would not how is that not saving myself? In the end it would really be your good choice that saved you. And how about those that didn't have the opportunity you had? Parents never raised you in the Lord, raised a Muslim, etc. And if you respond to the light they had then offering people salvation through witnessing would probably actually condemn more people since now they would know and narrow is the path. When I came to understand the Doctrines of Grace it at first angered me but then it actually answered more questions and strung together the scriptures. Armenian doctrine really doesn't make God any fairer if you believe He is Omnipotent. I would of said please don't leave me to myself for I do not know what I do and I am a sinner. IMO
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I think people do not want to believe that God would make some vessels for destruction because they feel that would be unfair but really if God is God he created us and knew sin would enter the world and not all would be saved isn't really the end is the same. If God had the power to save but left us to our fallen natures does that make Him less "unfair"? So if He looked down the "tunnel of time" and saw that I would choose Him and Susie would not how is that not saving myself? In the end it would really be your good choice that saved you. And how about those that didn't have the opportunity you had? Parents never raised you in the Lord, raised a Muslim, etc. And if you respond to the light they had then offering people salvation through witnessing would probably actually condemn more people since now they would know and narrow is the path. When I came to understand the Doctrines of Grace it at first angered me but then it actually answered more questions and strung together the scriptures. Armenian doctrine really doesn't make God any fairer if you believe He is Omnipotent. I would of said please don't leave me to myself for I do not know what I do and I am a sinner. IMO
This all soinds good, but i want doctrine which does more than sound good,

if god choses some but not others, he has placed some above others,

God claims to be a God of love, he can not claim to be a God of perfect love yet not perfectly love all people

Because of Gods justice, Gods love can not save anyone by itself, gods justice demands a penalty for sin, and gods love can not overrule,

However Gods love can make a way, it can pay the sin debt, satisfying gods justice, but since God is a god of perfect love, he can not force this gift on anyone, As a loving creatore, from that love, he desired his creation to want his gift. That is what pleases him, just like a loving father is pleased when their children willingly recieve our gifts,

if that child recieves the gift, in no way can that child boast or claim she earned that gift, but she can boast in the father who loved her so much he bought her that gift,

if the child rejects the gift. It does not make the father any less loving of that child than the one who recievd it. It is the child who loses out (and quite frankly the one who bough the gift is hurt or grieved.)
 

Jimbone

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Aug 22, 2014
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If one believer does an average of, let's say, 20 good works a week, and another believer does an average of one good work a week - is the first more saved than the latter?
Again brother you are looking at this in the flesh. It's not about how much you sin, or even your golden go to "do you still sin", that you know will always have to be answered yes. But simply by the way you look at it I can tell you don't know Him, you are still spiritually dead. I understand, that is why He says it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God in the flesh "." When you are born again you are born of the Spirit, this is actually an event that CHAGES you, and makes you desire to glorify Him, to tell others the truth He has opened your eyes to. Before this happens you can not see it, you look at things just like you are now. This is by NO means a dig at you, brother this is me showing you the most love I possibly can by telling you that you have it wrong. I only know thing because I had it wrong for a long time too. I realize now that back then I really loved the "idea" of Jesus, but I live here in the real world, I said the prayer, was dunked under water, but I had no idea that these words are true to the core, when I was lost I looked at it much like you are now, I had no one to tell me there is more to it, when you see you life and any other direction beside towards Him is futile. Heck I didn't even call out His name when He granted me repentance and I was made new.

When I hit my knees if I had ever believed at all in God, I didn't then. I didn't call out "Jesus I need you now", nope because of stuff like your teaching now I thought I had already "did that", and it didn't work. It wasn't until I was out of option, broken, and saw clearly the futility of my whole life, I was at the end with no way at all of "fixing" it myself. Brother I woke up the next day brand new, didn't even realize until lunch that after 2 years of wanting to die and involuntarily thinking about suicide at least every 5 minute I realized "I HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT KILLING MYSELF ALL DAY!!!!", I couldn't believe it, but at that moment I knew 2 things, whatever this was God did it, and Jesus Christ is His Son.

Brother I am telling you there is a change, and you now KNOW God, like fo real fo real. Major habits were gone overnight, things I loved, things I never even thought of as bad or struggled with at all overnight were dropped off the priority list. These are things that can only be explained in a biblical. Again I truly hope you understand that I am not saying these things to you because I think I'm better, or smarter, or more worthy, or any self glorifying thing like that, I'm without a doubt much worse in any measurable way, and He changed me forever, here on earth, right now just like it clearly says. It is all true in real life man, I am saying this to you because I wish that someone would have told me. Anyway I hope you have a great day and pray God forever draw us all closer, praise Jesus mighty name. Amen.
 

Ignorun

Active member
Dec 18, 2018
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I think what's missing in this equation is that the unsaved, or non-elect, DON'T CARE.

I know people who are perfectly content to wallow in their sin. They have no desire or intent to seek a Savior. They KNOW the Truth, but they have suppressed the Truth because they love their sin so much.
Now there's a motivating reason to go and teach the lost! But what does it matter, you and your household were predestined to be saved and never to be lost and tough luck on all those who are actually lost. No use in teaching them the gospel.
 

Ignorun

Active member
Dec 18, 2018
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I think what's missing in this equation is that the unsaved, or non-elect, DON'T CARE.

I know people who are perfectly content to wallow in their sin. They have no desire or intent to seek a Savior. They KNOW the Truth, but they have suppressed the Truth because they love their sin so much.
Your words about the lost while you relish in your I Thank God I am Not As The Publican attitude of OSAS is not only disgusting by most measures of decency, it's contrary to the spirit of Christ.
 

Ignorun

Active member
Dec 18, 2018
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If a person lives their life in such a manner, there is no scriptural reason for that person to assume that he or she is a believer. So your question is faulty.

A true believer will fall, may even lapse for a long time in some cases. But like a sheep that by nature will not dwell in mud like a pig (just an analogy), they won't want to stay there,m. It is not in a sheeps nature to dwell in mud.
What is the mud?
 
Jan 3, 2019
9
4
3
This all soinds good, but i want doctrine which does more than sound good,

if god choses some but not others, he has placed some above others,

God claims to be a God of love, he can not claim to be a God of perfect love yet not perfectly love all people

Because of Gods justice, Gods love can not save anyone by itself, gods justice demands a penalty for sin, and gods love can not overrule,

However Gods love can make a way, it can pay the sin debt, satisfying gods justice, but since God is a god of perfect love, he can not force this gift on anyone, As a loving creatore, from that love, he desired his creation to want his gift. That is what pleases him, just like a loving father is pleased when their children willingly recieve our gifts,

if that child recieves the gift, in no way can that child boast or claim she earned that gift, but she can boast in the father who loved her so much he bought her that gift,

if the child rejects the gift. It does not make the father any less loving of that child than the one who recievd it. It is the child who loses out (and quite frankly the one who bough the gift is hurt or grieved.)
He choose Israel over the other nations...so you are saying that God provided a way through Jesus Christ? So us choosing Him and accepting this gift is how we are saved? What makes one person accept and another one reject? Good witnessing, opportunity to hear gospel, godly parents, Christian nation, harder life, fear of hell. It doesn't sound any more just to me. Millions perish never being offered the gift or ever hearing of Jesus Christ.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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He choose Israel over the other nations...so you are saying that God provided a way through Jesus Christ? So us choosing Him and accepting this gift is how we are saved? What makes one person accept and another one reject? Good witnessing, opportunity to hear gospel, godly parents, Christian nation, harder life, fear of hell. It doesn't sound any more just to me. Millions perish never being offered the gift or ever hearing of Jesus Christ.
He never chose to save all israel, he chose descendents of abraham isaac and jacob for a specific purpose

God draws, he offers, he convicts, even scripture says his creation shows him, so much thta in all areas no man has an excuse.

People will go to hell because they saw all god offered and said no Period
 

Ignorun

Active member
Dec 18, 2018
180
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If a person lives their life in such a manner, there is no scriptural reason for that person to assume that he or she is a believer. So your question is faulty.

A true believer will fall, may even lapse for a long time in some cases. But like a sheep that by nature will not dwell in mud like a pig (just an analogy), they won't want to stay there,m. It is not in a sheeps nature to dwell in mud.
What is the mud?
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
705
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The prodigal child left his father, we are not told how long he was gone, it could have been a few years for all we know, if he died before he came back, would he have ceased to be his fathers son?
No. But that doesn’t address the question. The father said the prodigal was dead and lost. Is a backslider dead and lost?

Plus, I don’t think you understood my answer to the question. I said a person who lives in unrepentant rebellion has no scriptural basis to assume he’s a christian

Now a question for you. If a professed believer dies as an adulterer, fornicator, a liar, a thief, etc. will they inherit the Kingdom? What does Paul say? Have they ever known God, according to John.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
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705
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Yes I agree 1,000%. I do too, but do you also see how we got to the root of the problem here, it really raised a red flag when Budman spoke of the "works for salvation/as evidence of salvation" like they were interchangeable and the same argument, as if they aren't two COMPLETELY different things. Then the whole "if works are evidence of salvation, are the Mormons saved" argument was very telling because that is a argument solely from the flesh. Almost every argument he is making seemed to be coming from the same "fleshly foundation" as well. And I understand, I too felt the same way before the old man was put to death and by Gods grace I was granted repentance and was born again, my spirit was made alive and reconciled to His Spirit. and like you said "And I need God's grace and power EVERY step of the way.", couldn't agree more and will and that this is also why He gets all credit, these "works" are a direct result of our new nature, they are the "side effect" of being spiritual born again, you are now "that e=which is born of the Spirit, by His grace and now anything I do is His to claim all the glory for, any "work" I do I only do by His power and He rightfully gets all the credit, and I am still in complete awe that He is so overwhelmingly "GOOD!!!", only God is good, and I praise Him in Jesus name.

That is the only way I can see these things, the only way any of us see these things, and when we hear things like "the old man is put to death sometime later", or the only other example I can think of when I actually said "you are not saved if ______", was when a professing Christian said that the Father did not put the wrath due to Him on Jesus, that Jesus wasn't crushed by the Father for his sin, and that the very idea of God punishing Jesus for pour sin would make God a monster. Really. I told him that if Jesus didn't paid his price, then God wrath was still abiding on him. I truly hope I am not giving the impression at all I am claiming I or anyone other than Jesus is or was sinless.

I know we are being sanctified and your post describes it beautifully, but this I also see as Budmans "go to, gotcha" deception, almost like his very foundation, the question "but you still sin right?", to which we always have to say "yes", but this is not even what I'm speaking about, and count how many times he ask it. the thing is I agree we still sin, I never once suggested we didn't it just seems you get offended by the suggestion the Jesus changes peoples whole nature and this changes results in "works" Oh the dreaded word, I mean we can't promote working for Jesus, no sir. I just see this as ridiculous. The problem I see here is the whole message is, "Once saved always saved, repeat this prayer, okay your in and remember first and foremost we will still always sin. There can be no change in you and remember works is the worst thing a Christian can do, just kick back and remember "You still sin". I just think this is a set up for a church full of well meaning false converts, like "I was for a good long while". I remember why this was so appealing, and while I don't believe this is how they thing about it, and I was being a bit tongue cheek, I felt this way for 5 years without knowing Him. I hope it was also made apparent where his misunderstanding are and God was just using this to grow him in truth. More than that I pray God shows him I was only saying these things in love because there was an apparent breakdown in his spiritual understanding of the truth.

To be honest I hate the back and forth on here endlessly over every single detail (of course this holds true anywhere people talk about anything online, not just "here"), and really never even listening to each other and both attacking straw men . I truly find face to face interaction to be on such a higher level that I have honestly been all but ignoring online chat completely, but this conversation has kind of reminded me that God uses all things for His glory, and that maybe He can grow me in this way as well, regardless it's all for His glory. Have a great day brother, and may He draw you and your family closer everyday, in Jesus name. Amen.
YES, I think BUDMAN AND others are omitting a lot of things from salvation

A. New birth
B. Repentance
C SaSanctification.
D. Preservation


WE are saying these things are part of salvation, and they seem to be saying that including them in the salvific works of God is a works salvation.

Completely omitting many facets of God’s grace.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
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You

You said sheep go in the mud. Who are the sheep and what is the mud?
I said a sheep may fall into the mud, but won't remain in it. The mud is sin. A Christian may stumble but will get back up. A Christian is not absolutely sinless, but they will not abide in sin, will not make themselves slaves to it, will not put themselves in subjection to it. As They will not practice sin. A pig will wallow in mud, ie make mud it's home, as some make sin their home. A sheep may fall into the mud, but it is not the sheep's nature to abide (dwell in, live in) the mud. It's all about nature. It's not a mere issue of what we do, it is an issue of who we are and what kind of nature we have, where our heart is.

A Christian will also "do" righteousness.

I'm not the one who said this. The apostle John did. CLEARLY said it. I know you know this, but I say this concerning others.

The difference is the different nature. The Christian has a nature that wants to please God, although the Christian is not infallible. A non Christian, even one that professes to be a Christian, is a slave to sin. A Christian is a servant of God, and you cannot serve two masters.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
705
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-
You
zzzzz
You said sheep go in the mud. Who are the sheep and what is the mud?
I am using mud as a symbol for sin

I did not say sheep GO into the mud, I said they may fall into the mud, but will not stay there, will not revel in it, will not make their home in it.

Christians are not sinlessly perfect in practice, (1 John 1:9-2:2), BUT will not make their bed in sin, will not abide in sin, will not make sin their home, ie will not practice sin. (1 John 3:6)