Nehushtan

[unobtrusive]

Jesus is like the Nehushtan, and if you recall Gods people were in error for worshipping it.

Because While it is understandable how an item which brought miraculous healing could become an object of worship, it was still blatant disobedience to God’s commands (Exodus 20:4–5). The bronze serpent was God’s method of deliverance during the incident recorded in Number 21
Nehushtan should be a powerful reminder to us all that even good things—and good people—can become idols in our lives. Our praise, worship, and adoration are to be directed to God alone. Nothing else, regardless of its amazing history, is worthy.

Easton noted that "the lapse of nearly one thousand years had invested the 'brazen serpent' with a mysterious sanctity; and in order to deliver the people from their infatuation, and impress them with the idea of its worthlessness, Hezekiah called it, in contempt, 'Nehushtan', a brazen thing, a mere piece of brass".

Jesus Christ doesn't fit that description.

 

[MarcR]

How is a conclusion that God can't be tempted derived from a directive to not tempt God, which satan clearly ignored (by tempting Jesus). Jesus referred to Deuteronomy 6:16 here, which goes on to say..."as ye tempted Him in Massah".

In the KJV, the words tempted and tested are both expressed by the word tempted sometimes. In the 17th century that was consistent with common usage. The problem is that we no longer regard them as synonyms.

God often tests our faith; and people often test God's promises.

God consistently honors His Word; but we don't always act according to faith.

 

[MarcR]

Do you not believe that Jesus is God?

Thank You Old Hermit! I totally missed the first line in the OP

 

[unobtrusive]

Jesus is like the Nehushtan, and if you recall Gods people were in error for worshipping it.

Because While it is understandable how an item which brought miraculous healing could become an object of worship, it was still blatant disobedience to God’s commands (Exodus 20:4–5). The bronze serpent was God’s method of deliverance during the incident recorded in Number 21
Nehushtan should be a powerful reminder to us all that even good things—and good people—can become idols in our lives. Our praise, worship, and adoration are to be directed to God alone. Nothing else, regardless of its amazing history, is worthy.

Easton noted that "the lapse of nearly one thousand years had invested the 'brazen serpent' with a mysterious sanctity; and in order to deliver the people from their infatuation, and impress them with the idea of its worthlessness, Hezekiah called it, in contempt, 'Nehushtan', a brazen thing, a mere piece of brass".

Jesus Christ doesn't fit that description.

He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan. (2 Kings 18:4)

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:" (John 3:14)

The crucifixion represents death, same as Nehushtan. The resurrection represents life.

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" (John 11:25)

 

[Mem]

In the KJV, the words tempted and tested are both expressed by the word tempted sometimes. In the 17th century that was consistent with common usage. The problem is that we no longer regard them as synonyms.

God often tests our faith; and people often test God's promises.

God consistently honors His Word; but we don't always act according to faith.

What? Where? ... or maybe it's, When?

Jesus said "It is written..." which means He was referring back to when it was/is/will be written, He's talking about the same thing (both times He spoke) whether he was talking about testing or tempting, or whether He says it now or said it then or here there...

 

[Nehemiah6]

In the KJV, the words tempted and tested are both expressed by the word tempted sometimes. In the 17th century that was consistent with common usage. The problem is that we no longer regard them as synonyms.

Correct. At the same time all temptations are indeed tests of our faith and our obedience. So while Satan is presenting a temptation, God is offering a test.

As to the confusion regarding the temptations of Christ, many Christians have the false idea that Jesus of Nazareth, the God-Man, could actually be tempted to sin. Since Satan is not omniscient, he too had this false notion, assuming that by presenting some powerful temptation to Jesus, Christ would succumb to them. But he did not know (or ignored the fact) that Jesus was holy, harmless, undefiled, AND SEPARATE FROM SINNERS. So just as God cannot be tempted with sin, the God-Man could not be tempted to sin. Yet those temptations -- in themselves -- were very real, and any ordinary man might have succumbed. Indeed there is not a saint in Scripture who did not succumb to some temptation, and sin. Perhaps Daniel is the exception.

But getting back to the temptations of Christ, they were the same basic temptations that were presented to Eve, and they are the same basic temptations which are presented to us daily: (1) the lust of the flesh, (2) the lust of the eyes, and (3) the pride of life. Bread = the lust of the flesh. All the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them = the lust of the eyes. A display of divine power by falling from the temple pinnacle = the pride of life.

 

[gdyloves]

Clearly you did not get this false idea from the Bible. So who indoctrinated you into this nonsense? If Jesus was just a man, He could not possibly shed His blood for the remission of sins and the redemption of sinners. Please note this Scripture carefully and believe it for your own salvation (if nothing else).

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

Only God could purchase the Church with His own blood, and the one who shed His own precious blood was Jesus.

SO your saying God bleeds???
He has blood running through his veins as you and I. Does he need oxygen in his blood to go to his heart to live too?

Wow, ok....

FYI it was the sons blood not the fathers.

 

[shrume]

...As to the confusion regarding the temptations of Christ, many Christians have the false idea that Jesus of Nazareth, the God-Man, could actually be tempted to sin..

Do you understand why Christians have that idea?

Heb 4:
14) Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

15) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

 

[Dino246]

Correct. At the same time all temptations are indeed tests of our faith and our obedience. So while Satan is presenting a temptation, God is offering a test.

As to the confusion regarding the temptations of Christ, many Christians have the false idea that Jesus of Nazareth, the God-Man, could actually be tempted to sin. Since Satan is not omniscient, he too had this false notion, assuming that by presenting some powerful temptation to Jesus, Christ would succumb to them. But he did not know (or ignored the fact) that Jesus was holy, harmless, undefiled, AND SEPARATE FROM SINNERS. So just as God cannot be tempted with sin, the God-Man could not be tempted to sin. Yet those temptations -- in themselves -- were very real, and any ordinary man might have succumbed. Indeed there is not a saint in Scripture who did not succumb to some temptation, and sin. Perhaps Daniel is the exception.

...

You are claiming is that although the temptations (actions/words of Satan) were real, the effect on Jesus was not real, because He could not be tempted. If that is the case, then He did not actually "overcome" temptation at all. He was not truly tempted "as we are". Only if the temptation were real to Him would His victory over it have redemptive value. To put it in simple words, you are claiming that it was not possible for Jesus to sin. I claim that it was possible for Jesus not to sin.

When we conflate Jesus' eternal divine nature with His temporary fleshly nature, and overlook the 'emptying' of Philippians 2:7, we bump up against a few problems: His limited knowledge; His dependence on the Holy Spirit; humanly physical limitations (fatigue, hunger, etc.); and the vulnerability to temptation (among others). In His divine nature, He has none of these.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I claim that it was possible for Jesus not to sin.

What exactly does that mean, and on what biblical basis did you arrive at this conclusion? Here is what Scripture says about the sinless humanity of Christ:

JESUS WAS FULLY HUMAN BUT WITHOUT THE SIN NATURE INHERITED FROM ADAM

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil... For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. (Heb 2:14,16)

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. (Heb 4:15)

For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. (Heb 7:26,27)

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (Heb 9:14)

JESUS SUFFERED BEING TEMPTED, BUT WAS NOT TEMPTED AS HUMANS ARE

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Heb 2:18)

For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. (Heb 2:10)

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (Heb 5:7-9)

His limited knowledge

False. Christ displayed His omniscience over and over again.The only point where He had yet not been given revelation was the timing of His coming the second time. But after His exaltation, that would have become irrelevant.

His dependence on the Holy Spirit

True. As the perfectly obedient suffering Son of His Father. Yet Christ asserted His deity as needed.

humanly physical limitations (fatigue, hunger, etc.)

True, not as "limitations" but as expression of full humanity

... and the vulnerability to temptation

False. Just as God cannot be tempted with evil, the God-Man Christ Jesus could not be tempted to sin. What we need to understand is that the virgin birth of Christ guaranteed the absence of the Adamic sin nature, which RESPONDS TO temptations. The temptations were no doubt real, but there was nothing within Christ -- the God-Man -- to respond to, or yield to temptations.

 

[Nehemiah6]

SO your saying God bleeds??? He has blood running through his veins as you and I. Does he need oxygen in his blood to go to his heart to live too?

Absolutely. God the Son took a human body as Jesus of Nazareth and SHED His blood for our redemption on the Cross. Unless you believe that without the shadow of a doubt, you cannot be saved, and will face eternal separation from God. Nothing to joke about.

 

[Dino246]

What exactly does that mean, and on what biblical basis did you arrive at this conclusion? Here is what Scripture says about the sinless humanity of Christ:

JESUS WAS FULLY HUMAN BUT WITHOUT THE SIN NATURE INHERITED FROM ADAM

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil... For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. (Heb 2:14,16)

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. (Heb 4:15)

For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. (Heb 7:26,27)

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (Heb 9:14)

JESUS SUFFERED BEING TEMPTED, BUT WAS NOT TEMPTED AS HUMANS ARE

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Heb 2:18)

For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. (Heb 2:10)

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (Heb 5:7-9)


False. Christ displayed His omniscience over and over again.The only point where He had yet not been given revelation was the timing of His coming the second time. But after His exaltation, that would have become irrelevant.

True. As the perfectly obedient suffering Son of His Father. Yet Christ asserted His deity as needed.

True, not as "limitations" but as expression of full humanity

False. Just as God cannot be tempted with evil, the God-Man Christ Jesus could not be tempted to sin. What we need to understand is that the virgin birth of Christ guaranteed the absence of the Adamic sin nature, which RESPONDS TO temptations. The temptations were no doubt real, but there was nothing within Christ -- the God-Man -- to respond to, or yield to temptations.

On your first "false", we still disagree. Omniscience means "all knowledge"; there are no exceptions. While on earth, Jesus was not omniscient... full stop. His omniscience after ascension is irrelevant, because he was tempted while in the flesh on earth. That's my point; things were different when He was on earth!

On your second "false", I agree that Jesus, because of the virgin birth, did not have the predilection to sin that we have inherited from Adam.

Before he at the forbidden fruit, did Adam have the same proclivity to sin which we now have, having inherited it from Adam? If so, then eating the fruit was irrelevant! If not, then he was in a state of "possible to sin, and possible not to sin". I suggest that Christ, while in the flesh, was in a similar "pre-fruit-consumption" state. While I cannot point offhand to specific Scripture to support this as I've written it, I don't see any conflict with Scripture.

I come to the conclusion I have from these same verses. If the temptations thrown at Jesus could not possibly have any effect on Him, then I contest that He was not tempted "as we are". Simple as that. If sin had absolutely no power over Jesus, in that it was not possible for Him to commit sin, then the statement that He was tempted "as we are" is bogus. If He could not sin, then He was never truly tempted.

Scripture states that God cannot be tempted, yet it also states that Jesus was tempted. Either that is an unresolvable paradox, or there is more going on than is summarized by, "Jesus the God-Man could not be tempted." To me it is as simple as His temporary enrobing with flesh... with its vulnerability to sin.

In the end, I suspect we may have to agree to disagree on this. I won't think anything less of you.

 

[Locutus]

Paul quotes the prophet Isaiah in his letter to the Philippians and is equating or stating Jesus is the incarnate God of Israel YHWH:

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? (Hebrew = IEUE or YWYH) and there is no God else beside me; a just God (Hebrew = EL) and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Paul:

Phil 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Phil 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.