New King James Version Comparison Alert

Thaddaeus · May 7, 2009

Well I never said I had a degree or that I didn't have a degree, but I did ask for you to show me fromscriptures where it say we need a DEGREE TO PASTOR. I am an Ordained Pastor (this info is for your sake) I don't think a degree or a license will make anyone a better preacher, sorry to say you can belittle me all you want if that makes you happy, But I am backing what i say with scriptures , all I seen from you so far is what your grandpa passed down to you, and as far as pride you have to give your self a higher ranking or description than me so who has more pride???

1ti 3:1This is a true saying, If a man desire the OFFICE OF A BISHOP, he desireth a good work.

MahogonySnail · May 7, 2009

If you are a plumber you would know what your tools were and where they came from and what limitations they have. If you are a preacher, you know what your tools are (bible versions), where they came from, and what their limitations are. Otherwise you might be trying to fix a broken pipe with duct tape instead of the proper tools. My point is if you had a bible degree from a recognised college you might have better understanding of your tools (bible versions and KJV). Remember a bishop must be "able to teach" and I assume that means teach the right stuff. Otherwise you might be leading your congregation astray if your bible knowledge is lacking. You aren't MY pastor and I dare say even if I tried to join your church you probably wouldn't let me or anyone else who disagreed with your views.

Thaddaeus · May 8, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

Let me say this as plain as I can so you won't misunderstand me , if saying that the authorized version for 400 years is full of errors is better teaching in your eyes, then let me stay ignorant, and let me believe in God that he can inspire a infallible translation. for I read in my King James , that with God all things are possible. and sir you are right if you came to my church ripping up the very word Of God , then I let only Christians that believe in God and that He raised Jesus Christ from the Grave, and have confesed Him as Lord and if you can believe that God lied in all those places that you showed as errors in the Kjb then how can we know that John 3:16 is the truth, so I would tell you that you are causing confusion in the Church and that you would be better off considering another Church, and let me say one more time as to not be taken out of context here I have not seen any nonbelievers attack the Word of God as bad as you have.

Mt 12:25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:Mt 12:26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?Mt 12:27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.Mt 12:28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.Mt 12:29Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.Mt 12:30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Cup-of-Ruin · May 8, 2009

Thaddaeus said:

I understand your frustration, it comes as a shock when something you have believed in for so long gets proven to be more or less wrong, but that is the case with the KJV. Let us remember that God respects no man, and He is under no obligation to provide us with a exact copy of His word at our local Christian bookshop, what makes us think He should make it so easy for us, most Christians throughout history have never even owned a Bible let alone a perfect one. It took me a whole year to come to grips with the fact that the KJV contains literally hundreds of added words, omitted words, sometimes an entire verse, just completely wrong, when I fgound out this I was so angry and I thought but why? Didn't God say He would keep His word for all of us, why didn't He? And I was frustrated and I prayed to God but a slipped back into sin because I was thought that all that I had learned from the KJV was now False! And what I did learn from a year of study of old manuscripts, bible history, Greek, Hebrew, dozens of translations was that to discover the true word of God is very difficult, and I felt let down and I felt like giving up.

The more I learned the more fault I found not only in the KJV but in the majority of translations and this really broke me, because of my questioning I could no longer go to church or associate with other christians. But I kept going and I kept learning and it was long and hard and I thought God had forsaken not just me but everyone, but slowly as I discovered more hidden truths in the Bible, truth that had been covered over and hidden for hundreds of years, I began to see under the layers of confusion and lies like rubbing the tarnish away from a silver coin underneath was God's brilliant plan, His word just coming alive "Is not My word like hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces!" Oh yes the Lord! God rewards those who search for Him, He has kept His Word it just does not neatly fall of the printing press of Zondervan Publishing House and then delivered into our hands with a big pink bow on it and a hand written note saying "Read This and you will be Saved" Oh No! God does not make it easy, He buries His Word deep down like rich veins of precious Gold buried in the ground, you gotta dig, you got to labour if you want to find the truth.

Thaddaeus · May 8, 2009

Cup-of-Ruin said:

Sir I have one problem with your doctrine of"Oh No! God does not make it easy, He buries His Word deep down like rich veins of precious Gold buried in the ground, you gotta dig, you got to labour to find the truth.if you want. The Bible says"

Jesus is the Word , Jesus is the truth, Jesus is the way, we don't get in on our amount of knowledge we have. or that we can gather by our study, the study to show yourself approved is for our callings such as preachers, or teachers . how does a uneducated grandma in West virgina get in under your doctrine. let me say this again if you want to keep attacking God's Word then that is you, Listen God can not lie, every Word is inspired By God, God would not inspire anyone to put an error or a lie in His Word, if all those places you say are wrong then how do we know any of it is true, didn't God say a little leaven would spoil the whole lot. so One lie in the Bible, one errror, then we do need to trash it, There is no lie there is no error within The Word of God, the error is the way man portrays God's Word. you and snail are twisting the Word of God , it does not say that we can't add words or even take away words from the scriptures it says not to take away from the words( the meaning) or add to these things this is saying not to change the meaning of the words , If It Is The Word of God, then there will be no lies no errors , if there are errors or lies than it is not the Word of God.

Re 22:18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:Re 22:19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
sir I am not Judging But if you truly believe your knowledge will get you in, then I think maybe you ought to ask God for wisdom and quit relying on your knowledge. May God Bless

Cup-of-Ruin · May 8, 2009

Well Sir as I have shown you previously the KJV has indeed added to the Word of God and many modern Bible versions have done the same, it is not me who is questioning whether God has given His true Word as I have already been through that trial and I can say with all certainty that He has. It is in fact others who are lacking in Faith that they cannot take that leap and challenge what other men have written and put it to the test to discover if it is from God or not. Does it not say that even the very elect will be decieved? Does it not say that the parth is narrow and there are few who find it?

John 2:3-5 "And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He that saith "I know Him" and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whosoever keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know that we are in Him."

I ask you how can someone know the Gospel of our Lord if the enemy has changed and corrupted words? over time, over time, since the fathers fell asleep we have inherited many lies and God says that "My children perish from lack of knowledge"

Satan is a master of all langauges you know and we exist in perilous times, this will not be easy.

Thaddaeus · May 9, 2009

Cup-of-Ruin said:

Does it not say that even the very elect will be decieved? see sir you have twisted the word again for it does not say that the very elect will be deceived but rather it says
if it were possible, they shall deceive the VERY ELECT.doesn't say they will or even that they could but with it were possible, at least that is what my Bible say , but this may be one of those mistakes you think God allowed in His Holy Word

Mt 24:24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the VERY ELECT.

Cup-of-Ruin · May 9, 2009

Thaddaeus said:

Greetings,

Once again your modern Bible in which you put your faith has added to His Holy Word.

Mat. 24:24-25 - "For false messiahs and false prophets will make their appearence; and will give out great and terrible omens, so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen. However I have forewarned you."

This is the actual text and the correctly translated verse and is rendered in such in many translations.
Why would it be neccessary for Jesus to warn His own diciples if there was no chance they could be mislead? Satan by adding the words 'it were' which do not appear in original scripture before the KJV not only makes the words of warning from Christ meaningless, he also employs the subtle tactic of misleading the Christian into believing there is no danger, no need to heed Christ's warnings, says Satan - you can listen to all the false messiahs and false prophets for it is not possible for you to be decieved. As if God is going to wrap you up in a little security blanket, no, Christ says 'if possible', meaning if it can be found a way for them to decieve even the very elect, then how much more dangerous for the newly born babe?

Mat. 24:4 - "And Jesus said to them; 'Take heed that no one decieves you.' For many will come in My name, saying, 'Iam the Christ,' and will decieve many."

Now Jesus is telling men such as Peter, John and James, these men lived with Jesus, were educated by Jesus, they were His chosen diciples and became Apostles and He is warning them - 'let no man decieve you', be careful He is saying. Well how much harder for us in the latter days? That anybody should think themselves that they do not have to heed the warnings of Jesus for they think themselves to be the 'very elect', I tell you indeed even the 'chosen' can be decieved.

Thaddaeus · May 9, 2009

Cup-of-Ruin said:

Well Sir as I have shown you previously the KJV has indeed added to the Word of God and many modern Bible versions have done the same, it is not me who is questioning whether God has given His true Word as I have already been through that trial and I can say with all certainty that He has. It is in fact others who are lacking in Faith that they cannot take that leap and challenge what other men have written and put it to the test to discover if it is from God or not. Does it not say that even the very elect will be decieved? Does it not say that the parth is narrow and there are few who find it?

John 2:3-5 "And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He that saith "I know Him" and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whosoever keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know that we are in Him."

I ask you how can someone know the Gospel of our Lord if the enemy has changed and corrupted words? over time, over time, since the fathers fell asleep we have inherited many lies and God says that "My children perish from lack of knowledge"

Satan is a master of all langauges you know and we exist in perilous times, this will not be easy.

according to what reference has the KJB added or changed as we should say the meaning of scriptures, i can go on the internet and find someone saying things that I want to hear But I agree with the Bible Let God be true and ALL men be lairs

Baruch · May 9, 2009

Cup-of-Ruin said:

As much as you and Mahogony_Snail keep trying to divert from the KJV as containing the meaning of God's words, but being out of date and circumspect in its origin, and as much, by His grace, I have been showing how the errors in the other versions can deny the faith, broaden the Way in approaching God the Father other than through the Son, and blur the lines of discernment given by the scriptures by how the other versions are placing emphasis on man or on the "Spirit" instead of on Jesus as the KJV would have it, you would lose yourself in your own understanding, forgetting the simplicity of the Gospel and how the scriptures were given to testify of Him. ( John 5:39-40)

I do not care if Genesis 3:7 has the word as apron in the KJV for this Masonic conspiracey to be suspected when breechers (trousers or pants that come down to the knees) is the term used from the Geneva Bible. It does not change the meaning of God's words to the point that it denies the faith, or support any false doctrine. I would have preferred the term breechers kept in the King James, but it doesn't change my perpective at all... apron.. breechers.. a type of cothing or covering the waist down to the knees. Granted, breechers give a more descriptive term, but of course, I had to look it up in an old dictionary of the time, but then again, apron may be seen as trousers as well back in their days. I mean, considering the use of terms and definition from the turn of the century from 1599 Geneva Bible to the 1611 King James Bible, and what we see as aprons today are going to be different... covering the front, but not the back? Do aprons back then are the same way?

Definition of breechers:

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=breeches

Definition of apron:

As I look at the site to find the original word to apron: Strong's Hebrew Dictionary

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRHEB22.htm#S2290

chagowr, pronounced khag-ore' of 2290 word goes to the 2296 word chagar

One would think that 2290 apron was seen as a belt or an armour that would attribute to the definition of apron today in wearing something to protect the clothing underneathe, but from the word 2296, we see it as covering from every side so it's not really the type of apron we see today. The use of apron as protective against nakedness can be seen in its application which leads to the meaning of apron... from every side, the nakedness was covered.

So reread the OP again and tell me how the meaning of God's words being changed in that degree is being done in the King James Bible.... otherwise, I would consider this as a deflection by making a mountain out of a molehill just because of the language of the time is not compatible with how we use the terms today.

Feel free to list those so-called verse changes that has made you so mad that it completely changes the meaning of God's words. List the main top 3 to 5 of them if you can, but before you do, make sure it is changing the meaning of the Word of God that it affects how we are to walk in Him.

What version are you using and why you prefer that? God be willing, I shall get back to you.

Cup-of-Ruin · May 10, 2009

Luke 17:20-21 is verse that has caused so much confusion and misunderstanding and every Christian should be made aware of the error this verse contains.

KJV. Luke 17:20-21 "And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, 'The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, lo there! for behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

Now there are many problems with this verse, the most obvious is the word 'within',

In the marginal notes of The KJV Companion Bible it reads:

"within = in the midst of, or, among: i.e. already there in the Person of the King (whose presence marks a kingdom). Gr. entos, the same meaning as Gr. en (Ap. 104. viii), with the plural rendered "among" 115 times in the N.T. The same meaning as in Mat. 12:28, John 1:26. you = you yourselves. His bitter enemies. Therefore not in their hearts; but the very opposite."

So what we have here is a error that changes the whole concept and meaning of what Jesus is saying, this is very dangerous, it's hard to believe that this is not a deliberate mistranslations when we know that the correct translation has been rendered 115 times in the N.T. To change "among" to "within" not only renders the entire verse senseless but changes the meaning of Jesus' message into the it's very opposite!

Jesus never said to the Pharisees that the kingdom of God was within them, He said that the kingdom of God refering to Himself was among them in the sense that His presence marks the kingdom of God. We also find that to accommodate this trickery there are other changes made to what the original Greek says, and what Jesus is saying;

KJV - "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation'

MOFFATS TRANSLATION - "The Reign (kingdom) of God is not coming as you hope to catch sight of it; no one will say, 'Here it is' or 'There it is', for the Reign of God is now in your midst."

Now with the correct translation it makes sense, Jesus is saying to the Pharisees that the kingdom of God is not coming in a form that you think it will appear in, Behold I Am the kingdom of God and I am among you, (or in your midst).

The trick the devil has played here is to get Christians to believe that the kingdom of God is a spiritual place that exists inside their hearts and you cannot observe it, and that is not what Jesus said at all. The kingdom of God can be observed but not in the way the Pharisees thought it would appear to them, the kingdom of God is real and it appeared on earth in the form of Jesus Christ, and He is saying I am the Kingdom of God and I am here NOW!

Baruch · May 10, 2009

Cup-of-Ruin said:

Thank you for sharing one of your frustrations. May the Lord provide the edification you need to understand the meaning of His words.

In this charge from the Pharisees, Jesus was answering what will happen in the near future since they were looking for the literal coming of the Kingdom of God where the lion shall lie down with the lamb prophecy. It is their mentality that needed to be addressed as the Saviour must die first, rise from the dead, and ascend to the right hand of God the Father to establish His kingdom.. the citizens that make up His kingdom. Those that inherit that Kingdom will be ready for that Kingdom.

Jesus was not speaking of Himself if He was referring to a future time when the Kingdom of God would be within them by which He will establish for those that believe.

John 14: 1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you..... 5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.... 19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

So we have our citizenship with God now because of Jesus Christ.

It cannot mean "among" you for that would imply to the hearers that the Kingdom of God was here now for them to be living in thus going against what He was saying.

KJV. Luke 17:20-21 "And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, 'The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, lo there! for behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

This is Jesus way of saying that something else has to happen forst before anyone can actually inherit the Kingdom of God as in they have to become His in order to enter therein.

1 Corinthians 6:14And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 15Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

We need His wisdom to understand the meaning of His words as Jesus was trying to speak of a near future time when trusting the Lord is how we can receive the Kingdom of Heaven. The Gospel has to be that simple for a child to receive the Kingdom and all they can do is trust the Lord.

Mark 10:13And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

So losing yourself in some intellectual quest is a futile effort when all one has to do is ask Jesus for wisdom, because the scriptures are given to testify of Jesus as the Good News... and He is the means by which we are saved and become a member of His Kingdom.

John 5:39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

The way is narrow as Jesus is the Way while false prophet would broaden the way to God the Father as if Jesus is not the only way to God the Father. This would be the definition of "anti-christ" which means "instead of Christ". Christ is still mentioned, but the focus and the hope is being divided. That is why to avoid false prophets and false spirits, believers are urged to do this:

Luke 13: 24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

May your nickname not be a predestined prophecy of your inheritance.

2 Timothy 2: 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

2 Timothy 2:11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

May the Lord renew your trust in Him in helping you knowing the will of God through the reading of His Words.

Thaddaeus · May 10, 2009

Cup-of-Ruin said:

Greetings,

Once again your modern Bible in which you put your faith has added to His Holy Word.

Mat. 24:24-25 - "For false messiahs and false prophets will make their appearence; and will give out great and terrible omens, so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen. However I have forewarned you."

This is the actual text and the correctly translated verse and is rendered in such in many translations.
Why would it be neccessary for Jesus to warn His own diciples if there was no chance they could be mislead? Satan by adding the words 'it were' which do not appear in original scripture before the KJV not only makes the words of warning from Christ meaningless, he also employs the subtle tactic of misleading the Christian into believing there is no danger, no need to heed Christ's warnings, says Satan - you can listen to all the false messiahs and false prophets for it is not possible for you to be decieved. As if God is going to wrap you up in a little security blanket, no, Christ says 'if possible', meaning if it can be found a way for them to decieve even the very elect, then how much more dangerous for the newly born babe?

Mat. 24:4 - "And Jesus said to them; 'Take heed that no one decieves you.' For many will come in My name, saying, 'Iam the Christ,' and will decieve many."

Now Jesus is telling men such as Peter, John and James, these men lived with Jesus, were educated by Jesus, they were His chosen diciples and became Apostles and He is warning them - 'let no man decieve you', be careful He is saying. Well how much harder for us in the latter days? That anybody should think themselves that they do not have to heed the warnings of Jesus for they think themselves to be the 'very elect', I tell you indeed even the 'chosen' can be decieved.

I don't see the problem here with your example verse, I will say it again by adding" it were" does not change the meaning of the verse. and I thought I was nick picky. the Bible never says we can't add words, but rather not to add unto these things ( doctrines ,Gosple the meaning of the Book

Thaddaeus · May 10, 2009

Cup-of-Ruin said:

Luke 17:20-21 is verse that has caused so much confusion and misunderstanding and every Christian should be made aware of the error this verse contains.

KJV. Luke 17:20-21 "And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, 'The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, lo there! for behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

Now there are many problems with this verse, the most obvious is the word 'within',

In the marginal notes of The KJV Companion Bible it reads:

"within = in the midst of, or, among: i.e. already there in the Person of the King (whose presence marks a kingdom). Gr. entos, the same meaning as Gr. en (Ap. 104. viii), with the plural rendered "among" 115 times in the N.T. The same meaning as in Mat. 12:28, John 1:26. you = you yourselves. His bitter enemies. Therefore not in their hearts; but the very opposite."

So what we have here is a error that changes the whole concept and meaning of what Jesus is saying, this is very dangerous, it's hard to believe that this is not a deliberate mistranslations when we know that the correct translation has been rendered 115 times in the N.T. To change "among" to "within" not only renders the entire verse senseless but changes the meaning of Jesus' message into the it's very opposite!

Jesus never said to the Pharisees that the kingdom of God was within them, He said that the kingdom of God refering to Himself was among them in the sense that His presence marks the kingdom of God. We also find that to accommodate this trickery there are other changes made to what the original Greek says, and what Jesus is saying;

KJV - "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation'

MOFFATS TRANSLATION - "The Reign (kingdom) of God is not coming as you hope to catch sight of it; no one will say, 'Here it is' or 'There it is', for the Reign of God is now in your midst."

Now with the correct translation it makes sense, Jesus is saying to the Pharisees that the kingdom of God is not coming in a form that you think it will appear in, Behold I Am the kingdom of God and I am among you, (or in your midst).

The trick the devil has played here is to get Christians to believe that the kingdom of God is a spiritual place that exists inside their hearts and you cannot observe it, and that is not what Jesus said at all. The kingdom of God can be observed but not in the way the Pharisees thought it would appear to them, the kingdom of God is real and it appeared on earth in the form of Jesus Christ, and He is saying I am the Kingdom of God and I am here NOW!

If the kingdom of God is with in doesn't that go with this verseJoh 14:17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
the kingdom of God is within Me I see no problem here

Cup-of-Ruin · May 10, 2009

Baruch said:

Baruch,

It appears that you have fallen into the same trap as the Pharisees by saying that Jesus Christ was not speaking of Himself as the kingdom of God, you like the Pharisees are saying that the kingdom of God is a future event that could be found within the Pharisees and within anyone. The fact is Jesus never said "within you", He said "among you" in a present sense, that is what Scripture says, the KJV has changed the word and in the marginal notes as I presented this is admitted, they even admit that the word was changed to another meaning along with other words in the verse to pervert the words of Jesus and attempt to make the exact opposite known.

Becuase of the failure of the Christian world to recognize the literal and physical existence of the Kingdom of God on earth today, references to it have been changed and spiritualized as you are doing - seeking a future kingdom that cannot be obseved for it begins inside you. This is not what Jesus said. Christians are only succeeding in making God's kingdom further away, abstracting it, making it vague and all lost in the mists of unreality in the minds and hearts of Christian men and women; Mat. 15:19 - "For out of the heart proceeds evil" , Jer. 17:9 - "The heart is perverse above all things and unsearchable, who can know it?"

Do not trust your hearts but trust in God's Word, trust what Jesus said, He did not say to the Pharisees that the kingdom of God is "within you" He said that the kingdom of God is "among you" also translated "in your midst", refering to the present tense and himself, not a future event, but a present event and not inside of them but He as the royal majesty of the kingdom - Himself!

Benjamin Wilson in Emphatic Diaglott, translates the verse from the original Greek as follows:

"And having been asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom was coming, he answered them, and said. The Kingdom of God comes not with outward show; nor shall they say, Behold here! or there! for behold. God's royal majety is among you."

In footnotes of translation - "God's royal majesty is among you," reference is made to the fact that the Greek word for 'kingdom' - basileia, meaning kingly power, authority, royal dignity, majesty, etc, as well as kingdom, realm or reign. Then the statement is made:

"Basileia here refers to the person to whom the title and honor of King belonged, rather than to his territory or kingdom. Professor Whiting, an able Hebrew and Greek scholar, says this clause in the 21st verse ought to be rendered 'The king is among you'."

This is the very truth for Jesus stood in their very midst, among them, the Annoited One, the King of Israel and the Pharisee Jews did not recognize Him. The perversion of the teaching of scripture concerning the kingdom, which makes it a future event that now exists in the hearts and minds of men and women is utterly absurd. The Kingdom was not formed on earth but in heaven it was given at Mt Sinai and the Royal King Himeslf came in the form of Jesus Christ.

This are just more reasons to believe that the devil has his fingerprints all over the KJV, many words have been changed and given rise to false doctrine that has assualted God's kingdom and His laws that has been present on earth, this will be restored no doubt when the King returns again, but in the mean time we should endevour to put an end to these false lies that have arisen, the Kingdom of God does not exist in your personal heart, when the Spirit of Truth comes to you he will show you the error in trusting in the traditions of men and not in God's words.

MahogonySnail · May 10, 2009

When people put aside rational thought and logic and make bold claims such as the "KJV is without any errors" , there's no convincing them otherwise.

logos83 · May 16, 2009

I believe you can be saved from any translation of the Bible.

That being said, "Thank You Baruch and Thaddaeus" for defending the Word of God. My problem with the newer translation is they are missing Acts 8:37, most of I John 5:7 just to name a couple of verses they leave out. They question Mark 16:9-20; and John 7:53-8:11, I can hear the words of the serpent, "Yea, hath God said," (Genesis 3:1).

How can I say God is everything I believe Him to be if He can't keep His promise to preserve His Word (Psalms 119:89). Please don't tell me it is in the original Hebrew and Greek, because everyone tells us we don't have the original anymore.

I believe Jesus is sinless ( forgive me as I'm sure you all do) but wonder went believers say the Word has errors, but none on major doctrine. If there is errors even on one little things, isn't Jesus a liar? for three times in the Gospels we read "Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass away," these are Jesus' words. (Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33). I apologize if this offends you but if Jesus words aren't 100%, isn't He a liar and that would makes Him a sinner. God Forbid! I believe the Textus Receptus is the Word of God completely inspired. See also Matthew 5:18; Luke 6:17; Revelations 22:18-19.

I know many of you will disagree, I don't question your salvation just can't understand your line of reasoning when dealing with the Scriptures, as I'm very sure you can't figure mine out.

Once again Thank You Baruch and Thaddaeus.

imoss · May 16, 2009

I'm actually quite surprised, reading this thread... I am in the process of trying to find an alternate version to the NIV as in comparison to my KJV it is lacking key scripture that I deem important... ie "thine is the kingdom the power & the glory forever and ever amen" in the instruction on how to pray. Anyway... I tried just going to kjv but find I dont read like I used to. Was looking to purchase the MKJV or the NKJV but dont know which one to go with. This thread surprised me just because I've seen two posters who have absolutely earned my respect in other threads demean themselves and I'm kinda shocked cause I tend to agree with both of them in their other posts and respect how they normally speak the truth in love. I thought they would be a united front for Christ & never resort to tearing each other down. I was happy; however, to see that Pastor Keith has training and is not a pastor impostor. hee hee

<3 to you guys! Marcia.

eric51 · May 16, 2009

Baruch said:

_____________________________________________________
Here is the Christian translation of those verses posted from the quasi-Christian book, AKA KJV:

Heb 10:14 Whereas the Levitical Priesthood offfered daily sacrifices that were ineffectual in remitting sin [v. 11], Jesus offered a single sacrifice which won him a permanent place at God's right hand. There he has only to wait the final outcome of his work [v. 12]. Thus he has brought into being in his own person the new covenant prophesized by Jeremiah which has rendered meaningless all other offerings for sin [vv. 14-18].

1 Cor 1:18 From the allusions to wisdom [v. 17] and the wise [v. 19], it seems the Christians mentioned in v. 12 were attempting unsuccessfully to align their faith with the philosophies of the current time. Paul points out that the Christian message of redemption through the crucifixion of Christ [v. 17] lies outside the ken of philosophical speculation. It is God, not man, who controls human destinyh beyond this life.

2 Cor 2:15 Paul wishes to convince the Corinthians that his actions towards them were motivated not by selfish reasons, but by genuine apostolic concern. This leads him to reflections on the apostolic office: his effectiveness as an apostle derives from Christ [vv.14-17]; his achievements are supported by the Holy Spirit; his qualifications as an Apostle are a gift of God; and his ministry of the justifying power of God is superior to the Mosaic Covenant. Paul knows his work is to result in the permanent presence of Christ among men through the power of the Holy Spirit [vv. 13-18].

Here are some verses from a Christian bible that show Justification is an on-going process, not a one-time event of faith:

2 Cor. 4:16 - though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed "every day." This not only proves that justification is internal (not legal and external), but that it is also ongoing (it's not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior). Our inner nature is being renewed every day as we persevere in faith, hope and love.v

John 3:16 - justification is ongoing, not a one-time event. God so loved (past) the world, that He gave (past) His only Son, that whoever believes (ongoing) in Him may have eternal life. The word “believes” is “pisteuo” in Greek which necessarily includes obedience throughout one’s life. This is proved by 1 Peter 2:7-8 which also uses “pisteuo” (to obey) and “apitheo” (to disobey). The same word “pisteuo” is used in many other verses about “believing in Christ” such as John 3:36; 5:24; Rom. 4:24; 10:9-10; cf. Rom. 1:5,16; 6:17; 16:26; 1 John 5:13 (often used by Protestants to support their “faith alone” theology). To “believe” means to “obey” throughout one’s life; it is not a one-time acceptance of Jesus as Savior.

Heb. 5:9 – Paul also confirms this by writing that Jesus became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him. Here are some examples of justification as an on-going process, and not a one-time event:

Gen. 12:1-4 – Abram is justified here, as God promises to make his name great and bless the families of the earth through his seed. Abram is justified by his faith in God. Heb. 11:8-10 confirms Abraham's justification occurred here, before Gen. 15:6 (later) by referring to Gen. 12, not Gen. 15. Abraham's justification increased over time because justification is not a one-time event, but an ongoing process of growing in holiness.

Gen. 14:19, 22-23 - Abram is also justified here, by being blessed by the priest-king Melchizedek. Melchizedek calls Abram blessed and Abram gives him a tenth of everything.

Gen. 15:6 – Abram is further justified here, as God promises him that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars. Because the Scripture says, “He believed the Lord, and He reckoned it to him as righteousness,” Protestants often say this was Abram’s initial justification, and cite Rom 4:2 to prove Abram was justified by his faith. Yes, it is true Abram was justified by his faith, but he was justified 25 years earlier in Gen. 12:1-4, as Heb. 11:8-10 proves.

Gen. 22:1-18 – Abraham is further justified here, this time by works, when he offered his son Isaac as a sacrifice to God. James 2:21 proves this as James writes, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” James then confirms this by writing, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (James 2:23). These verses prove that justification before God is an on-going process, not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, and is accomplished by faith and works.

1Sam. 13:14 - David is justified here, as God describes him as “a man after his own heart.” No one in Scripture is described like this. Acts 13:22 confirms David’s justification before God

1 Sam. 16:13 – David is also justified here. “The Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon David from that day forward.”

1 Sam. 17:37-54 – David is further justified here, as he responds to God’s grace and God delivers him from the hand of Goliath the Philistine.

2 Sam. 6:9,14 – David is further justified here, as he expresses a fear for the Lord in the presence of His ark, and dances before the ark of the Lord with all his might.

2 Sam. 12:7-15 - however, after David’s on-going justification before God, David falls out of justification by committing adultery with Bathsheba and slaying Uriah the Hittite. David still had faith in God, but he lost his justification because of his evil works.

Psalm 32:1-2; Rom. 4:7-8; cf. 51:2,7-10,17 – David repents of his sin and writes these beautiful psalms about God’s mercy and forgiveness. Of himself, he writes, “Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered up.” David is re-justified before God. This proves that we can be justified before God, then lose our justification, and then be re-justified through repentance and reconciliation with God.

Matt. 16:18-19 – Jesus blesses Simon for receiving a Revelation from God, changes his name to Peter, and gives him the keys to the kingdom of heaven. In John 6:68-69, Peter, justified before God, declares that Jesus has the words of eternal life. In Luke 22:31-32, Jesus prays for Peter that his faith may not fail and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles. In these and many other examples, Peter is justified before God.

Matt. 26:75; Mark 14:72; John 18:17, 25-27 – Peter denies he knows Jesus and loses his justification before God.

John 21:15-17 – Peter is re-justified before God after he negates his three-fold denial of Jesus with a three-fold confirmation of his love for him. Jesus then charges Peter to feed the Lord’s sheep. Peter was justified, loses his justification, and regains it again through repentance and love.

Luke 15:24,32 - the prodigal son was dead, and now is alive again; he was lost and now is found. The prodigal son regained his father’s favor through repentance (v. 18-19,21). When we ask our Father for forgiveness, we too will regain His favor and be justified.

Acts 9:1- 17 - Protestants would say that Paul is instantly justified here, when he encounters Christ, obeys His command to enter the city, and is moved by the Holy Spirit. They would say that Paul’s sins are now covered up and Christ’s righteousness is imputed to him.

Acts 9:18; 22:16 - then why does Ananias command Saint Paul (who was directly chosen by Christ) to stand up and be baptized and "wash away" his sins? Because justification, as the Church has taught for 2,000 years, is ongoing. It is not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. Justification is freely given by God through faith, hope, love and the sacraments of the Church (here, baptism).

miktre · May 16, 2009

Cup-of-Ruin said:

Baruch,

It appears that you have fallen into the same trap as the Pharisees by saying that Jesus Christ was not speaking of Himself as the kingdom of God, you like the Pharisees are saying that the kingdom of God is a future event that could be found within the Pharisees and within anyone. The fact is Jesus never said "within you", He said "among you" in a present sense, that is what Scripture says, the KJV has changed the word and in the marginal notes as I presented this is admitted, they even admit that the word was changed to another meaning along with other words in the verse to pervert the words of Jesus and attempt to make the exact opposite known.

Becuase of the failure of the Christian world to recognize the literal and physical existence of the Kingdom of God on earth today, references to it have been changed and spiritualized as you are doing - seeking a future kingdom that cannot be obseved for it begins inside you. This is not what Jesus said. Christians are only succeeding in making God's kingdom further away, abstracting it, making it vague and all lost in the mists of unreality in the minds and hearts of Christian men and women; Mat. 15:19 - "For out of the heart proceeds evil" , Jer. 17:9 - "The heart is perverse above all things and unsearchable, who can know it?"

Do not trust your hearts but trust in God's Word, trust what Jesus said, He did not say to the Pharisees that the kingdom of God is "within you" He said that the kingdom of God is "among you" also translated "in your midst", refering to the present tense and himself, not a future event, but a present event and not inside of them but He as the royal majesty of the kingdom - Himself!

Benjamin Wilson in Emphatic Diaglott, translates the verse from the original Greek as follows:

"And having been asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom was coming, he answered them, and said. The Kingdom of God comes not with outward show; nor shall they say, Behold here! or there! for behold. God's royal majety is among you."

In footnotes of translation - "God's royal majesty is among you," reference is made to the fact that the Greek word for 'kingdom' - basileia, meaning kingly power, authority, royal dignity, majesty, etc, as well as kingdom, realm or reign. Then the statement is made:

"Basileia here refers to the person to whom the title and honor of King belonged, rather than to his territory or kingdom. Professor Whiting, an able Hebrew and Greek scholar, says this clause in the 21st verse ought to be rendered 'The king is among you'."

This is the very truth for Jesus stood in their very midst, among them, the Annoited One, the King of Israel and the Pharisee Jews did not recognize Him. The perversion of the teaching of scripture concerning the kingdom, which makes it a future event that now exists in the hearts and minds of men and women is utterly absurd. The Kingdom was not formed on earth but in heaven it was given at Mt Sinai and the Royal King Himeslf came in the form of Jesus Christ.

This are just more reasons to believe that the devil has his fingerprints all over the KJV, many words have been changed and given rise to false doctrine that has assualted God's kingdom and His laws that has been present on earth, this will be restored no doubt when the King returns again, but in the mean time we should endevour to put an end to these false lies that have arisen, the Kingdom of God does not exist in your personal heart, when the Spirit of Truth comes to you he will show you the error in trusting in the traditions of men and not in God's words.

Luke 17
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

STRONGS:
G1787
ἐντός
entos
en-tos'
From G1722; inside (adverb or noun): - within.

1Cr 6:19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

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