New violence of the Holy Spirit?

[KingdomGeneration]

Originally Posted by leendert

For God nothing is impossible,so yes He can and im sure He does heal people.The problem today is that we have a man centred and not a God centered religion.We go to church because we want this and that and the other thing.I go to church to worship God .He is my creator and my saviour. He owes me nothing.

I think you hit it right on the nose.

It's the book of Gal.

I agree whole heartedly and have been trumpeting this sentinent for some time now however, no one wants to admit it.

 

[Aliciaforjesus]

We don't go seeking signs however, Alicia is correct, Jesus Himself says signs and wonders shall follow those who believe.

The problem is that there are basically two types of christians today. Those who just believe in God, whom I like to refer to as "casual christians". And there are those who actually dare to believe God in every aspect of there lives, I like to call them "committed christians".

The difference between the two is simple. The casual christian goes to church on Sunday and Wednesday. They may even volunteer or actually head up various activities or ministries around the church. They are good people and there hearts may be sincere however, their problem is that God is just a part of their life.

The committed christian is a completely different person altogether. These people don't necessarily have to go to church (although they are ussually there bright and early) to find God because they understand that they themselves are the tabernacle of the Lord. God is more than just part of their their life, God is the focal point of their life. God is the first thing they consider in every thought that is entertained, every word spoken, and in every action taken. These people are far from perfect however, they possess a deep burning for God that overwhealms all other desires in their lives. That desire is called faith, the kind of faith that God Himself gives full consideration as righteousness. These are the christians who here the voice of God. These are the christians who God honors their prayers.

We all need to be completely honest and ask ourselves, what kind of christian am I?

Wow! I could not of said it any better!!!!

 

[Aliciaforjesus]

"By His stripes we are healed"

I have heard testimony ,by those who walk closely with the Lord to a point where God actually honors their prayers, of situations where healing was used to bring people to Christ especially in Muslim countries. In other words "If my God can heal you and set you free from your affirmities, will you live your life for Him?"

The gospel of Christ is a gospel of unconditional love. Would not that love include healing?

It's all about the love!

He did what He saw the Father doing,

of course He wants to heal and restore what was lost.

He is the same yesturday, today, and forever, He does not change!

People who know the Lord, don't go chasing signs and wonders, they know the truth!

Signs and wonders should chase you, not because of any thing but your tesimony of Jesus and what He has done for you as you have gotten to know Him.

Every Christian must have a testimony of Jesus not just a testimony about when they first got saved.

But a testimony of faith and answered prayer.

Is not answered pray a sign and a wonder?

There has got to be more than just knowing the word and going to church!

It is a matter of living for Jesus and obeying to love others with actions.

 

[KingdomGeneration]

It's all about the love!

He did what He saw the Father doing,

of course He wants to heal and restore what was lost.

He is the same yesturday, today, and forever, He does not change!

People who know the Lord, don't go chasing signs and wonders, they know the truth!

Signs and wonders should chase you, not because of any thing but your tesimony of Jesus and what He has done for you as you have gotten to know Him.

Every Christian must have a testimony of Jesus not just a testimony about when they first got saved.

But a testimony of faith and answered prayer.

Is not answered pray a sign and a wonder?

There has got to be more than just knowing the word and going to church!

It is a matter of living for Jesus and obeying to love others with actions.

*smiling* Now here's a girl who knows a thing or two about personal revelation... I hope some of the others are taking notes.

 

[leendert]

The Bible also says this....
2nd Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Jude:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Do not think you can conform God into your little box, neither discount something because you do not understand it.

You cant build a box that can hold God.Like I said previously ,nothing is impossible for God.BUT the bible tells us that great sighns and wonders are going to be used to decieve Gods poeple.Is that not clear in the scriptures i quoted ?My point is that we should be VERY carefull and test and question and double check everything.Its quite literally a matter of life and death.Dont just follow the masses.In bible history the masses were NEVER right.Ask Noah or Daniel and his friends.God gave us free will,so do whatever blows your hair back.Everyone will answer for their own actions one day.

 

[leendert]

*smiling* Now here's a girl who knows a thing or two about personal revelation... I hope some of the others are taking notes.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Aliciaforjesus]

You cant build a box that can hold God.Like I said previously ,nothing is impossible for God.BUT the bible tells us that great sighns and wonders are going to be used to decieve Gods poeple.Is that not clear in the scriptures i quoted ?My point is that we should be VERY carefull and test and question and double check everything.Its quite literally a matter of life and death.Dont just follow the masses.In bible history the masses were NEVER right.Ask Noah or Daniel and his friends.God gave us free will,so do whatever blows your hair back.Everyone will answer for their own actions one day.

I have noticed a move in the churches that are close to the right thing but for some reason the focus has been put all on the Holy Spirit,

I find that the bible says this is wrong.

The word says that the Holy Spirit never glorifies Himself and when you hear in a church,

Come Holy Spirit and Jesus is left out there is something wrong.

It becomes a spirit of witchcraft.

We must call upon the name of Jesus, in no other name can we be saved.

The Holy Spirit moves as your faith in Jesus is activated.

Jesus doesn't move when we have faith in the Holy Spirit, it's the other way around.

If you notice it seems like these churches focus on worship, but who are they worshipping,

Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

It makes me think of Jezebel in 1KIngs, she was all about the worship and killing prophets.

We really need to be focused on our Lord Jesus!

I have a hard time with any church or organination that charges to get in.
These churches that charge to see a preacher, they will not even preach at your church unless you pay them money, this is not right.

Baalim the false prophet would not give a word unless you paid Him.
It does not seem any different to me. It seems to be all about the money!
It's all a big,
Lets tickle you and make you feel good. GIVE US YOUR MONEY!

 

[JohnWesleyMethodist]

Before I write this, let it be known I write this to expose false teachings out of concern from my heart to you. I care for my brethren in Christ and need to warn the body of Christ about this. I NEVER mean to attack anyone but only false doctrine. And I do not mean to direct this as a BLANKET statement to specific denominations(eg: pentecostal, charismatic), but to those who preach and practice false doctrine such as this.

Did Christians in the great age of Christianity 1700s-1800s feel the need to be so apologetic when they told the truth? I don't think they did. Below I will paste a part of John Wesley's "Advice to a People Called Methodist":

Considering these peculiar circumstances wherein you stand, you will see the propriety of a Second advice I would recommend to you: "Do not imagine you can avoid giving offence:" Your very name renders this impossible. Perhaps not one in a hundred of those who use the term Methodist have any ideas of what it means. To ninety-nine of them it is still heathen Greek. Only they think it means something very bad, -- either a Papist, a heretic, an underminer of the Church, or some unheard-of monster; and, in all probability, the farther it goes, it must gather up more and more evil. It is vain, therefore, for any that is called a Methodist ever to think of not giving offence.

And as much offence as you give by your name, you will give still more by your principles. You will give offence to the bigots for opinions, modes of worship, and ordinances, by laying no more stress upon them; to the bigots against them, by laying so much; to men of form, by insisting so frequently and strongly on the inward power of religion; to moral men, (so called,) by declaring the absolute necessity of faith, in order to acceptance with God. To men of reason you will give offence, by talking of inspiration and receiving the Holy Ghost; to drunkards, Sabbath-breakers, common swearers, and other open sinners, by refraining from their company, as well as by that disapprobation of their behaviour which you will often be obliged to express. And indeed your life must give them continual offence: Your sobriety is grievously offensive to a drunkard; your serious conversation is equally intolerable to a gay impertinent: and, in general, that "you are grown so precise and singular, so monstrously strict, beyond all sense and reason, that you scruple so many harmless things, and fancy you are obliged to do so many others which you need not," cannot but be an offence to abundance of people, your friends and relations in particular. Either, therefore, you must consent to give up your principles, or your fond hope of pleasing men.

This was a very well designed post by Roaring Kitten and very important. I just hate when Christians feel the need to apologize whenever they speak the truth.

Trevor.
​

 

[JohnWesleyMethodist]

Yes it's something like that. I think it came from the Toronto revival etc and probably earlier than that, which is a different camp altogether than Benny Hinn.

It's well known that Smith Wigglesworth punched people for healing so RoaringKitten how do you explain that one. Can satan heal?

So this "new violence of the Holy Spirit" as you claim is nothing really new.

You claim the Holy Spirit is not violent and yet when the Spirit was lied to two people dropped dead (that's in Acts). What about when God told the Prophets to do violent things? What about the earthquakes and thunder and lightning with God's presence?

Can you still acccurately and biblically claim the Holy Spirit is not violent? Or perhaps your view of God is a big cuddly pussy cat ?

Smith Wigglesworth was a Godly man, however I think he did go overboard sometimes. These new style preachers aren't interested in holiness though like Wigglesworth was, they are just interested in spiritual gifts and manifestations.

This is where the second blessing comes in, receiving the Holy Spirit and the holiness that the Spirit brings. This is not preached anymore, but Wigglesworth preached that holiness in his day, especially having been under William Booth for a time.

 

[JohnWesleyMethodist]

GENTLEMEN...

I'm not someone who goes around 'rebuking' others... but I will say this '
Be really... REALLY careful' about what you say.. especially regarding how you think the Holy Spirit should move and shouldn't.

Whilst it's clear we're all 'self-appointed judges' here determining who we think are men of God and who aren't (sheer arrogance), You'd be wise.. really wise to guard your mouth and heart in how God uses men in signs and wonders and chooses to heal.


ROARING KITTEN... I've said it before and I'll say one last time.. You're young.. and in your youthful zeal are ignorant of many things of the Spirit. Whilst I won't lose too much sleep if you want to believe the lie that Signs and Wonders are not for today and that certain gifts of the Holy Spirit finished with the Apostles, fine.. BUT I'll exhort you again. Be careful.. be very careful about talking about the Holy Spirit and those who operate in ways unfamiliar to you.

If perfect love for God and man is not at the forefront of preaching, if receiving a clean heart from a second experience with God is not held up above everything else, then it's not of God. Holiness is the primary purpose of the Spirit. Gifts and manifestations and all this other stuff apart from holiness is automatically garbage and not of God. Also, preachers being so loved in mega-churches is not of God. Historically movements of God are met with violence, but these mega-churches just grow and grow without any backlash. Not of God! It's so easy to tell clearly what is of God or not.

 

[JohnWesleyMethodist]

If your brother is caught up in something that is extreme and has no place in ministering to people, pray that God will put a hedge around him and through mercy and wisdom correct him in lovingkindness, just as you and I would like to be corrected. There are many things that our brothers and sisters have gotten a little 'off kilter' about concerning the gifts and administration of the Holy Spirit. But we never judge them, but rather teach them in meekness, believing that God will show them a more excellent way. If we judge them, we run the risk of confusing other believers, causing division and putting a stumbling block in their way as they grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.​

​

Everyone claims to be our brothers and sisters because everyone claims to be a Christian. I think we need to use the scripture to first find out who our brothers and sisters actually are, and then apply loving kindness and patience in correction to the very few who fit that description. 1 John 2:4-6 is a good place to start defining who our brothers and sisters truly are:

4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[JohnWesleyMethodist]

Everything is not peaches and cream or strawberries and shortcake, and I love them both. We live in a day that judging a ministry, believers or your brother in Christ is an acceptable practice. According to the scriptures and Jesus Christ himself, is should not be practiced in any way. You judge yourself and let your brother do likewise. God is faithful and just and a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. Proving all things does not mean you judge your brother. You can prove all things and hold fast to that which is good without judging your brother. Just do it that way. That is the simplicity that we have in Christ. When we judge other believers we take their mercy right out of God's hand, that He uses to bring correction and instruction. Mercy should always rejoice over judgment, right!

I disagree. We live in a day where nobody stands up for the truth because they might offend somebody. This kissy-kissy lovey-dovey stuff is very much leaning toward Ecumenicism and kissing the Pope's ring which I saw a video on YouTube - I think - of all sorts of Christian leaders kissing the Pope's ring/hand. Disgusting!

Also, as I said in a previous post, there are a billion or so people in this world who call themselves Christian and 95% probably are not even remotely seeking God with adequate sincerity. Are these people our brothers and sisters also? Many of these people are wolves in sheep's clothing. Are they our brothers and sisters also? Bill Clinton was a Christian too as he had an affair and then lied about it.

We need to use the Biblical description of what a believer is in order to determine who is and who isn't our brothers and sisters, and then consider the others to be unconverted. What else can we do?

 

[KingdomGeneration]

Smith Wigglesworth was a Godly man, however I think he did go overboard sometimes. These new style preachers aren't interested in holiness though like Wigglesworth was, they are just interested in spiritual gifts and manifestations.

This is where the second blessing comes in, receiving the Holy Spirit and the holiness that the Spirit brings. This is not preached anymore, but Wigglesworth preached that holiness in his day, especially having been under William Booth for a time.

Actually there seems to be a huge movement among today's up and coming preachers who seem to be embracing the teachings of great men like the Wesley Bros and Johnathan Edwards. I personally believe another great reformation could very well be on its way once again.

 

[leendert]

I have noticed a move in the churches that are close to the right thing but for some reason the focus has been put all on the Holy Spirit,

I find that the bible says this is wrong.

The word says that the Holy Spirit never glorifies Himself and when you hear in a church,

Come Holy Spirit and Jesus is left out there is something wrong.

It becomes a spirit of witchcraft.

We must call upon the name of Jesus, in no other name can we be saved.

The Holy Spirit moves as your faith in Jesus is activated.

Jesus doesn't move when we have faith in the Holy Spirit, it's the other way around.

If you notice it seems like these churches focus on worship, but who are they worshipping,

Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

It makes me think of Jezebel in 1KIngs, she was all about the worship and killing prophets.

We really need to be focused on our Lord Jesus!

I have a hard time with any church or organination that charges to get in.
These churches that charge to see a preacher, they will not even preach at your church unless you pay them money, this is not right.

Baalim the false prophet would not give a word unless you paid Him.
It does not seem any different to me. It seems to be all about the money!
It's all a big,
Lets tickle you and make you feel good. GIVE US YOUR MONEY!

I agree.The thing today is that Satan works very sneaky.He does not come to us as a big monster.He comes with a bible under the arm.And the cup he gives you to drink from tastes very good.The problem is the 1% rat poisen. That kills you in the end.I know we are not supposed to judge somebody,but how do you tell a brother or sister that they are in error?

 

[JohnWesleyMethodist]

"Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost."

I love your Sig! How many people now-a-days think they have the Spirit and have never meditated upon this verse?

 

[KingdomGeneration]

I disagree. We live in a day where nobody stands up for the truth because they might offend somebody. This kissy-kissy lovey-dovey stuff is very much leaning toward Ecumenicism and kissing the Pope's ring which I saw a video on YouTube - I think - of all sorts of Christian leaders kissing the Pope's ring/hand. Disgusting!

Also, as I said in a previous post, there are a billion or so people in this world who call themselves Christian and 95% probably are not even remotely seeking God with adequate sincerity. Are these people our brothers and sisters also? Many of these people are wolves in sheep's clothing. Are they our brothers and sisters also? Bill Clinton was a Christian too as he had an affair and then lied about it.

We need to use the Biblical description of what a believer is in order to determine who is and who isn't our brothers and sisters, and then consider the others to be unconverted. What else can we do?

Amen to that!

 

[BLC]

KingdomGeneration[/b]

"Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost."

JohnWesleyMethodist;56652]I love your Sig! How many people now-a-days think they have the Spirit and have never meditated upon this verse?

No one has laid hands on me to receive the Holy Spirit and I am sure many others could say the same. Are you going to tell all of us that we don't have the Holy Spirit yet? Are going to tell us that we don't have the love of God within because it takes the Holy Spirit to do that (Rom 5:5)? Are you going to tell us that the thief on the cross never made it to heaven because no one laid hands on him before he died? Are you going to tell us that we cannot be filled, or walk or live in the Holy Spirit because we don't have the Holy Spirit because we only believe in the name of Christ? And we can't pray in the Spirit, and we don't have any gifts of the Spirit and how can we understand any of God's word unless we have the Spirit guiding us into all truth? So, if no one has laid hands on us, we must all be walking in the flesh and fulfilling the lusts of the flesh and living in death with no life, because we have not been born of the Spirit. It must mean that we have no light or love from God for men to see. If we are not born of the Spirit then we are still in unbelief and have not been forgiven or cleansed of sin. That puts us right back into the world that God has called us out of. That puts us right back into being a child of disobedience. That puts us in a place that God does not know us or have fellowship with us and all that we have been a partaker of through grace is all vanity. Is that what you are trying to tell all of us?

 

[MahogonySnail]

Barnes commentary gives a very good explanation about this "receiving the Holy Ghost", that Paul is speaking in context of the gifts etc not salvation:

Act 19:2
Have ye received the Holy Spirit? - Have ye received the extraordinary effusions and miraculous influences of the Holy Spirit? Paul would not doubt that, if they had "believed," they had received the ordinary converting influences of the Holy Spirit - for it was one of his favorite doctrines that the Holy Spirit renews the heart. But, besides this, the miraculous influences of the Spirit were conferred on many societies of believers. The power of speaking with tongues, or of working miracles, was imparted as an evidence of the presence of God, and of their acceptance with him, Act_10:45-46; 1 Cor. 14. It was natural for Paul to ask whether this evidence of the divine favor has been granted to them.


Gill says similar:

Act 19:2 He said unto them, have ye received the Holy Ghost,.... Meaning, not the special regenerating and sanctifying grace of the Holy Ghost, for that is supposed in their being disciples and believers, but the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost, for it follows,

Matthew Henry says similar:

Paul, at Ephesus, found some religious persons, who looked to Jesus as the Messiah. They had not been led to expect the miraculous powers of the Holy Ghost, nor were they informed that the gospel was especially the ministration of the Spirit.


PNT commentary says:

Act 19:2
Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? This question is asked in order to lead their way to a knowledge of their imperfect obedience. For their reply, see the Revision. They had heard of the Holy Spirit; John always spoke of Christ as one who should bestow it, but they had heard nothing of the scenes of Pentecost and the descent of the Spirit. It must not be forgotten that they lived nearly a thousand miles from Jerusalem, in an age when each part of the world knew little of what transpired elsewhere.


Wesley's commentary says:

Act 19:2 Have ye received the Holy Ghost? - The extraordinary gifts of the Spirit, as well as his sanctifying graces? We have not so much as heard - Whether there be any such gifts.


These are not pentecostal commentaries I'm quoting from either, these are some old (16th to 18th centuary) presbyterian or baptist (if i remember right) theologians and bible scholars or preachers. They all seem unanimous that this is referring to receiving the Spirit for His gifts and power, not for salvation (i.e. regeneration).

A subsequent experience of receiving the Spirit (meaning the gifts and power) for believers is very scriptural.

 

[MahogonySnail]

The PNT commentary puts it nicely. Like these believers that Paul encountered, people who are regenerated by the Spirit, yet have not received the Spirit (meaning the gifts and power) are probably not in perfect obedience to the Word or the Gospel, which afterall, is not only in word, but in power (dunamis, i.e. miracle working power) (see 1 Cor 4:20).