No 'But '

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Mar 14, 2011
69,816
14,967
113
I already stated, I never say the Law did save anyone.

I am asking you whether a Jew needed to try to keep the Law during the 4 gospels time period to remain in the covenant that God made with the nation Israel in Mount Sinai? It a simple yes or no question
If it did not save them, then the discussion is pointless
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
5,213
876
113
If the law could not save them, And as moses,said, they must be perfect to be considered truly obedient, they could not obey the law

like them you are lacking comprehension
One way to understand this is that salvation is always by grace thru faith in every time period.

Grace came from God, faith is how men should respond in obedience.

So for Cain, when God told him how to approach him, by offering the correct sacrifice, Cain chose not to respond in obedience, while Abel did, as Hebrews 11:4 indicated. That response in obedience to what God commanded is seen as faith.

For Abraham, God commanded him to leave the place he was living in and move to a new land. Abraham obeyed God, not knowing whether that place is habitable or not, and Hebrews 11:8 likewise recognized that as faith.

Later on Hebrews 11:17 also note that Abraham obeyed God and offered Issac as a sacrifice, God saw that as faith in him too.

By the time Mount Sinai arrived, God commanded the nation Israel to follow the Law of Moses, while providing a system of animal sacrifices whenever they fail to follow it perfectly. As long as the nation kept offering burnt sacrifices and try to keep the Law, God sees that as faith in him too.

That instruction continue to apply to the nation Israel, when Jesus was with them in the 4 gospels.

But now, the current time period we are living in, God commanded the Apostle Paul to tell all of us, Jews and Gentiles, Romans 4:5.

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

This verse is the clearest in telling us who are living in the but now time period, how should we respond in faith, to God's grace

That is to cease from all works and trust in Christ's finished work on the cross, for our salvation.

The moment we obey God's instructions there, he sees that as us putting faith in him, and he declares us righteous because we obeyed in faith.
 

Blade

Active member
Nov 19, 2019
336
137
43
So.. where does this "salvation" come from? Well seems MAN is trying very hard to tell man what salvation really is based on a personal belief? One can just cry out JESUS! And in that one word is repent....help me.. I believe.. or just crying out for help. The thief never did this. He just said remember me.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
1,998
476
83
Ok, I thought you was posting it for Jackie...Because she keeps asking for it...and I was going to re-post it but saw you had already posted it again....lol

Time for me to take a break, I guess....lol,
lol 😆 I'm all over the place sometimes . I lose track who I'm responding too .
No 1cor1.21
 

lenna

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2020
1,319
801
113
No but... HOWEVER, God only chooses to give grace to thee obedient
why then would they need that grace that comes for forgiveness of sins?

grace is unmerited favor. it would not be unmerited if someone was already obedient to the word or to the law (which no one can keep)
 

lenna

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2020
1,319
801
113
Because even one sin not covered by grace (Christ’s Blood) keeps you out of Heaven.

please post the scripture that says what you say above

Christ's blood is not grace. Grace is what is extended by God BECAUSE of the shed blood of His Son

there is not one person on this planet that has ever died completely sin free as you seem to suggest. did Jesus die to point out sin or did He die so we could be forgiven and accepted as God's beloved children?
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
422
83
One way to understand this is that salvation is always by grace thru faith in every time period.

Grace came from God, faith is how men should respond in obedience.

So for Cain, when God told him how to approach him, by offering the correct sacrifice, Cain chose not to respond in obedience, while Abel did, as Hebrews 11:4 indicated. That response in obedience to what God commanded is seen as faith.

For Abraham, God commanded him to leave the place he was living in and move to a new land. Abraham obeyed God, not knowing whether that place is habitable or not, and Hebrews 11:8 likewise recognized that as faith.

Later on Hebrews 11:17 also note that Abraham obeyed God and offered Issac as a sacrifice, God saw that as faith in him too.

By the time Mount Sinai arrived, God commanded the nation Israel to follow the Law of Moses, while providing a system of animal sacrifices whenever they fail to follow it perfectly. As long as the nation kept offering burnt sacrifices and try to keep the Law, God sees that as faith in him too.

That instruction continue to apply to the nation Israel, when Jesus was with them in the 4 gospels.

But now, the current time period we are living in, God commanded the Apostle Paul to tell all of us, Jews and Gentiles, Romans 4:5.

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

This verse is the clearest in telling us who are living in the but now time period, how should we respond in faith, to God's grace

That is to cease from all works and trust in Christ's finished work on the cross, for our salvation.

The moment we obey God's instructions there, he sees that as us putting faith in him, and he declares us righteous because we obeyed in faith.
Up until you spoke of Sinai you were on a good track. The issue with the Israelites was that they kept the law as work rather than faith, something Paul tells us in Romans 9:32. Rather than recognizing the character of the God they served through the law and serving Him in faith, they took the law as a means of establishing their own righteousness apart from God.

There is no separation or distinction of period, faith remains the same through all times. The only difference is that now we have seen God made manifest in the flesh so the unseen character of God is now known in Christ.
 
Jul 8, 2018
4,357
628
113
This is regenerated men ? So much for perseverance of the saints ?
18¶For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24¶Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26¶For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28¶And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them
Now do you understand the depravity of the fleshly nature of the regenerated man?
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
5,213
876
113
Up until you spoke of Sinai you were on a good track. The issue with the Israelites was that they kept the law as work rather than faith, something Paul tells us in Romans 9:32. Rather than recognizing the character of the God they served through the law and serving Him in faith, they took the law as a means of establishing their own righteousness apart from God.

There is no separation or distinction of period, faith remains the same through all times. The only difference is that now we have seen God made manifest in the flesh so the unseen character of God is now known in Christ.
Faith after Sinai but before Christ came, required the Jews to keep the law of Moses.
Faith after Christ came required the Jews to repent and believe in Jesus as their Messiah, and be water baptized, on top of keeping the Law of Moses.

You are correct that the nation refuse to believe Jesus as their Messiah, and refused to be water baptized by John in the 4 gospels.

Since they refuse to obey God's requirement for them, yes, even if they continue to keep the law, they did not show they had faith in God. They were trying to establish their own righteousness thru keeping the law only, as you stated.

So yes, faith remains the same in all times, they have to obey God's requirement for them. You do agree that, before Christ came, the entire nation need not be water baptized correct?
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
422
83
Faith after Sinai but before Christ came, required the Jews to keep the law of Moses.
Faith after Christ came required the Jews to repent and believe in Jesus as their Messiah, and be water baptized, on top of keeping the Law of Moses.

You are correct that the nation refuse to believe Jesus as their Messiah, and refused to be water baptized by John in the 4 gospels.

Since they refuse to obey God's requirement for them, yes, even if they continue to keep the law, they did not show they had faith in God. They were trying to establish their own righteousness thru keeping the law only, as you stated.

So yes, faith remains the same in all times, they have to obey God's requirement for them. You do agree that, before Christ came, the entire nation need not be water baptized correct?
If such "faith" were required than David and every other Israelite wouldn't have made it. No one but Christ has ever kept the law perfectly, and faith has always been what is required. Ordinances and trappings like the Sinai covenental code, baptism and other distinctives of the new covenant are external.

Many are making the same mistake with the New Covenant that was done with the old, instead of recognizing that what God requires is faith and the righteous live by faith the external trappings are being seen as what God is requiring and they are being pursued as work.

Jesus already revealed that error for what it is and where it leads. All we need to do is listen for the voice of the Shepherd and heed His call. It is a relationship with God and mistaking that relationship for the superficial trappings of religion only leads to condemnation.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
5,213
876
113
If such "faith" were required than David and every other Israelite wouldn't have made it. No one but Christ has ever kept the law perfectly, and faith has always been what is required. Ordinances and trappings like the Sinai covenental code, baptism and other distinctives of the new covenant are external.

Many are making the same mistake with the New Covenant that was done with the old, instead of recognizing that what God requires is faith and the righteous live by faith the external trappings are being seen as what God is requiring and they are being pursued as work.

Jesus already revealed that error for what it is and where it leads. All we need to do is listen for the voice of the Shepherd and heed His call. It is a relationship with God and mistaking that relationship for the superficial trappings of religion only leads to condemnation.
Didn't I already state that God provided a system of animal sacrifices for Israel when they sin?

They show faith in God by obeying what God commanded them to do. Before Christ came, they were given the Law and commanded by God to obey it.

Before Christ came, no Jew from Israel can tell God "Since I cannot keep the Law perfectly, I am not going to even try to keep it." If one were to do that, he will be cut off from the covenant.

But for the rest of us living in the but now time period, we are no longer under the Law, as I have already stated using Romans 4:5
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
422
83
Didn't I already state that God provided a system of animal sacrifices for Israel when they sin?

They show faith in God by obeying what God commanded them to do. Before Christ came, they were given the Law and commanded by God to obey it.

Before Christ came, no Jew from Israel can tell God "Since I cannot keep the Law perfectly, I am not going to even try to keep it." If one were to do that, he will be cut off from the covenant.

But for the rest of us living in the but now time period, we are no longer under the Law, as I have already stated using Romans 4:5
The blood of bulls and goats have never taken away sin as it is impossible for that to happen.

Certainly a faithful Hebrew would have followed the law, but that's external obedience and such obedience isn't profitable and never has been.

It is the inner obedience of faith that has always been what God has required which is why gentiles like Rahab and Ruth and Namaan and the Sidonese woman found favor apart from the law before Christ, two of them even while Israel continued to try to pursue God's favor via the law and was being held faithless.

Realistically the entire separation is because the church waited until Marcion's heresy to set a canon for Scripture. Because of this the lie that there is a difference between the Old and the New has taken hold and led to theologies like covenant theology and dispensationalism.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
5,213
876
113
The blood of bulls and goats have never taken away sin as it is impossible for that to happen.

Certainly a faithful Hebrew would have followed the law, but that's external obedience and such obedience isn't profitable and never has been.

It is the inner obedience of faith that has always been what God has required which is why gentiles like Rahab and Ruth and Namaan and the Sidonese woman found favor apart from the law before Christ, two of them even while Israel continued to try to pursue God's favor via the law and was being held faithless.

Realistically the entire separation is because the church waited until Marcion's heresy to set a canon for Scripture. Because of this the lie that there is a difference between the Old and the New has taken hold and led to theologies like covenant theology and dispensationalism.
Yes I never claimed it did. It covered sins for the nation Israel until Jesus on the cross became the perfect sacrifice.

Its not whether that obedience to the Law was profitable. We know that God gave Israel the Law of Moses, and until Christ came, they had to obey the Law because God commanded them to. You could not show faith in God in any other way.
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
422
83
Yes I never claimed it did. It covered sins for the nation Israel until Jesus on the cross became the perfect sacrifice.

Its not whether that obedience to the Law was profitable. We know that God gave Israel the Law of Moses, and until Christ came, they had to obey the Law because God commanded them to. You could not show faith in God in any other way.
I gave you 4 examples of people who showed faith without the law. The law is just trappings, it's external to faith. In fact, if you paid attention to Jesus you would realize that there are considerations meant to be taken over and above the law.

How many tomes have been spent trying to explain why Jesus didn't condemn the adulterous woman according to the law?

And why did David testify that the sacrifices were not what God desired in the Psalms, but instead repentance? Why did Micah testify that sacrifice is not what God desired, but instead mercy? Yet these things were prescribed by the law and the Israelites dedicated themselves to them.

Something you may want to meditate on is what the Jews were missing in their rebuilding of the temple and why God didn't appear in it in the same way He did at the dedication of Solomon's temple.

As Habakkuk said and Paul quoted, the righteous live by faith. Both before and after the cross.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
5,213
876
113
I gave you 4 examples of people who showed faith without the law. The law is just trappings, it's external to faith. In fact, if you paid attention to Jesus you would realize that there are considerations meant to be taken over and above the law.

How many tomes have been spent trying to explain why Jesus didn't condemn the adulterous woman according to the law?

And why did David testify that the sacrifices were not what God desired in the Psalms, but instead repentance? Why did Micah testify that sacrifice is not what God desired, but instead mercy? Yet these things were prescribed by the law and the Israelites dedicated themselves to them.

Something you may want to meditate on is what the Jews were missing in their rebuilding of the temple and why God didn't appear in it in the same way He did at the dedication of Solomon's temple.

As Habakkuk said and Paul quoted, the righteous live by faith. Both before and after the cross.
So let me confirm, you are saying that during the OT, the Jews don't have to try to keep the Law of Moses, but just tell God "I have faith in you, I believe in you"?