No more of works?

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Karlon

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2023
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#21
What I am advocating is that we've got something better than those OT saints. We have the shed blood of Jesus Christ. I believe that salvation was not even possible for them, therefore, when they died, they slept in Abraham's bosom.
salvation not possible? hhhhmmmm i was taught that salvation was always available & possible in the o.t. & n.t.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#22
Those OT saints could obtain righteousness by following the law, but it was self-righteousness not God's righteousness through Jesus Christ. God's righteousness through Christ was not even available to them. Here is an example of OT righteousness:

Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Both Zacharias and his wife Elisabeth were righteous before God by being blameless as they following the commandments and ordinances of the Lord. Paul was also blameless as touching the righteousness under the law.
It's merely talking about outward conformity to the law, not inward. It is not enough to keep the letter of the law outwardly. The internal motivation must also accompany it. So they were blameless before the law. That made them good Jews. But they weren't blameless before God. If they were
blameless before God, why the sacrifices? Remember, this is the same Zacharias who was struck dumb.
There is, indeed, a righteousness that comes from keeping the law both inwardly and outwardly. But, as James makes clear, offending in 1 point is to offend in all. This is because while it is possible to be forgiven of our sin, we can never go back and perform the righteousness for our past misdeeds.
As sinners we need 2 things from Christ:
1. His atoning death that our sins are blotted out, and
2. His righteousness imputed to us so that the righteousness demanded by the law not given when we sinned is given.
This is true regardless of the covenant one is under. That's why God not only sacrificed an animal for Adam and Eve, but also clothed them.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,756
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#23
Remember, God added the sacrificial system as part of the law. If one transgressed
the law, they had a means to have their transgression forgiven.
Animal sacrifices were commanded by God so that people could experience forgiveness of
sin, but only temporarily, which is why the sacrifices needed to be offered repeatedly. Animal
sacrifices foreshadowed Christ’s sacrifice on our behalf, and
have stopped with Jesus Christ.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,104
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#24
I believe that salvation was not even possible for them, therefore, when they died, they slept in Abraham's bosom.
Abraham's bosom is analogist of resting in God's care. As Abraham is the personification of faith, which the hub of resides in his bosom. The rick man died faithless (which is indeed poverty regarding any true riches) hence his request imploring that Lazarus be sent back to preach to his faithless brothers. Lazarus died with the only real treasure, faith.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#25
Deut 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
Where is "proving your faith" in this? It is proving your righteousness.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#27
Grace has always been present. Grace for salvation began with Adam and Eve.
The initial covenant for salvation was one of works. There was a singular prohibition and had that commandment been kept, it would have led to eternal life at some point. It wasn't, thus, grace became necessary.
The particular verses you ask about reflected the estate of Israel in the time of the Apostle. Some were saved by grace, but most had not. Hence, Israel failed to obtain what it desired: life through the law.
Have you ever read the law of the lepers in Moses law this is how the works of the law speak of lepers it’s one of the longest chapters in the law so I’ll just show a few verses tommake the point. this is how the worlds of the law compare to the Word of faith

“And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, This shall be the law of the leper in the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought unto the priest: and the priest shall go forth out of the camp; and the priest shall look, and, behold, if the plague of leprosy be healed in the leper; then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop: and the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water: as for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water: and he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field. And he that is to be cleansed shall wash his clothes, and shave off all his hair, and wash himself in water, that he may be clean: and after that he shall come into the camp, and shall tarry abroad out of his tent seven days. But it shall be on the seventh day, that he shall shave all his hair off his head and his beard and his eyebrows, even all his hair he shall shave off: and he shall wash his clothes, also he shall wash his flesh in water, and he shall be clean. And on the eighth day he shall take two he lambs without blemish, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish, and three tenth deals of fine flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and one log of oil. And if he be poor, and cannot get so much; then he shall take one lamb for a trespass offering to be waved, to make an atonement for him, and one tenth deal of fine flour mingled with oil for a meat offering, and a log of oil; and two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, such as he is able to get; and the one shall be a sin offering, and the other a burnt offering. And he shall bring them on the eighth day for his cleansing unto the priest, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, before the LORD. to teach when it is unclean, and when it is clean: this is the law of leprosy.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭14:1-10, 21-23, 57‬ ‭KJV‬‬

again this is just a short sample of what had to be tediously done and it might not work according to the law but there’s like fifty things they had to do ritually to have a chance of cleansing lepracy

now the difference in the gospel and faith and how a leper is cleansed

“And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭8:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The one in the gospel wasn’t cleansed by the works of the law but by the faith of Jesus Christ hearing and knowing his word that said “ I know you can do this if you will lord Jesus “ and the answer that said “ I’m willing be ye clean “

There was no hundred ordinances and ritualistic works required he wasn’t cleansed by works but Jesus had mercy on him and he had faith in Jesus


“Not by works “ doesn’t mean our deeds don’t apply but it’s just saying the many works of the law aren’t what saves anyone but instead it’s Gods grace and thier faith in him meaning they hear and believe his word knowing who’s word it is
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,104
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#28
Paul was stating a fact. It is no mor of works.
So, Paul's statement implicitly declares that "It is now more of works now than it was then, and even though they were given the opportunity to prove their righteousness by works, no one obtained righteousness by works then either. The righteous have always and will always obtain it by faith."
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#29
Where is "proving your faith" in this? It is proving your righteousness.
“But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; as it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: And whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:31-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,821
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#30
Have you ever read the law of the lepers in Moses law this is how the works of the law speak of lepers it’s one of the longest chapters in the law so I’ll just show a few verses tommake the point. this is how the worlds of the law compare to the Word of faith

“And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, This shall be the law of the leper in the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought unto the priest: and the priest shall go forth out of the camp; and the priest shall look, and, behold, if the plague of leprosy be healed in the leper; then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop: and the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water: as for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water: and he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field. And he that is to be cleansed shall wash his clothes, and shave off all his hair, and wash himself in water, that he may be clean: and after that he shall come into the camp, and shall tarry abroad out of his tent seven days. But it shall be on the seventh day, that he shall shave all his hair off his head and his beard and his eyebrows, even all his hair he shall shave off: and he shall wash his clothes, also he shall wash his flesh in water, and he shall be clean. And on the eighth day he shall take two he lambs without blemish, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish, and three tenth deals of fine flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and one log of oil. And if he be poor, and cannot get so much; then he shall take one lamb for a trespass offering to be waved, to make an atonement for him, and one tenth deal of fine flour mingled with oil for a meat offering, and a log of oil; and two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, such as he is able to get; and the one shall be a sin offering, and the other a burnt offering. And he shall bring them on the eighth day for his cleansing unto the priest, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, before the LORD. to teach when it is unclean, and when it is clean: this is the law of leprosy.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭14:1-10, 21-23, 57‬ ‭KJV‬‬

again this is just a short sample of what had to be tediously done and it might not work according to the law but there’s like fifty things they had to do ritually to have a chance of cleansing lepracy

now the difference in the gospel and faith and how a leper is cleansed

“And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭8:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The one in the gospel wasn’t cleansed by the works of the law but by the faith of Jesus Christ hearing and knowing his word that said “ I know you can do this if you will lord Jesus “ and the answer that said “ I’m willing be ye clean “

There was no hundred ordinances and ritualistic works required he wasn’t cleansed by works but Jesus had mercy on him and he had faith in Jesus


“Not by works “ doesn’t mean our deeds don’t apply but it’s just saying the many works of the law aren’t what saves anyone but instead it’s Gods grace and thier faith in him meaning they hear and believe his word knowing who’s word it is
I like what you said, but even keeping the whole law, it only made them ceremonially clean. They still needed to be healed. Christ was always necessary.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,882
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#31
What I am advocating is that we've got something better than those OT saints. We have the shed blood of Jesus Christ. I believe that salvation was not even possible for them, therefore, when they died, they slept in Abraham's bosom.
“and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭8:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,882
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#32
I like what you said, but even keeping the whole law, it only made them ceremonially clean. They still needed to be healed. Christ was always necessary.
yeah Christ was always there though with them

“Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭10:1-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what I was saying brother is the law can’t save anyone it’s not made to do that Jesus is the savior . In the law the levites had to keep all these many many tedious ordinances ceremonial things washings and rituals in order for anything to happen . Faith isnt like that faith is based solely and only on what Jesus said

Like this is a word designed of and by and for faith

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see how Jesus is giving an instruction and then assuring of a result if it’s believed d one if itnisnt ? In the Bible there are words of faith like that but then there’s the law

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The law was never meant to give faith and save us what I was saying the New Testament is
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,821
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#33
yeah Christ was always there though with them

“Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭10:1-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what I was saying brother is the law can’t save anyone it’s not made to do that Jesus is the savior . In the law the levites had to keep all these many many tedious ordinances ceremonial things washings and rituals in order for anything to happen . Faith isnt like that faith is based solely and only on what Jesus said

Like this is a word designed of and by and for faith

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see how Jesus is giving an instruction and then assuring of a result if it’s believed d one if itnisnt ? In the Bible there are words of faith like that but then there’s the law

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The law was never meant to give faith and save us what I was saying the New Testament is
I agree with your point. I'm merely saying it has been that way since the fall. It has simply been made more plain over time.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,104
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#34
Faith requires One with absolute knowledge of it's presence. And although there are many that pretend to have absolute knowledge of all things, there is only One Who actually does. Take for example the rich young ruler who Jesus baited into saying, "I've kept all of these since my youth," but went away sad when Jesus exampled his idols, tho this is exactly why Jesus initially asked him, "Why do you call me good (that is, to call Me good is to call Me God but yet, you have idols before Me)?"
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,104
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#35
There are no goods gooder, not even the law although it is good, than God.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,882
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#36
I agree with your point. I'm merely saying it has been that way since the fall. It has simply been made more plain over time.
Indeed brother I was never disagreeing with you just sharing the thought of how the law for anything to happen there was long lists of rituals they had to do perfectly when the Bible talks about “not by works “ it’s referencing the difference in the law of works and law of faith

“Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works?

Nay: but by the law of faith.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus just spoke things he had no rituals he needed to perform nonordinances he kept he just spoke forth Gods word of power and assurance spoke forth salvation. I was just saying there’s a difference in faith and the law of works but our deeds whether good or evil those aren’t the works referenced but the works and rituals of the law are no longer needed or useful

If you look at the law of Moses we see the law of works made for this purpose not to save or justify but

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. ( that can’t save )

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This could never save sinners only condemn them but all of us need to come to the point of knowing we’re sinners and lost without Jesus so the law is also necassary and needed to preclude the revelation of the gospel sent to then save those convicted sinners
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,090
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#38
If they were
blameless before God, why the sacrifices?
Blameless never means sinless. Without blame, therefore, when they transgressed the law, they made the proper atonement for forgiveness.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,090
3,681
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#39
Animal sacrifices were commanded by God so that people could experience forgiveness of
sin, but only temporarily, which is why the sacrifices needed to be offered repeatedly. Animal
sacrifices foreshadowed Christ’s sacrifice on our behalf, and
have stopped with Jesus Christ.
Absolutely in agreement!
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,090
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#40
Abraham's bosom is analogist of resting in God's care. As Abraham is the personification of faith, which the hub of resides in his bosom. The rick man died faithless (which is indeed poverty regarding any true riches) hence his request imploring that Lazarus be sent back to preach to his faithless brothers. Lazarus died with the only real treasure, faith.
Abraham's bosom was a real place located in the heart of the earth.