No New Birth without the New Covenant

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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#21
Adam walked with God and even after he tried to hide Adam walked with God and had direct contact, God has been speaking to man dia his Spirit, Word and Prophets, preachers and teachers from day one.....I really think many go to seed and over emphasize what really took place in Acts and the N.T. when it comes to the Spirit of God. What took place is the HOLY SPIRIT taking the place of JESUS as the guide/comforter of the church.

Note the following....and none are any different than what took place in the N.T.

For no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God

The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me; His word was on my tongue.

You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of Your servant, our father David: ’Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?

Then the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and He said to me, "Say, 'Thus says the LORD, "So you think, house of Israel, for I know your thoughts.

As for me, however, I am filled with power by the Spirit of the LORD, with justice and courage, to declare to Jacob his transgression and to Israel his sin.
What do you do with these?...

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jer 31:33)

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Eze 36:26-27)

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (Heb 8:10)


It sounds like a 'new thing' that God had not done to His people in previous generations.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#22
It sounds like a 'new thing' that God had not done to His people in previous generations.
As Paul said: And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#23
What do you do with these?...

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jer 31:33)

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Eze 36:26-27)

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (Heb 8:10)


It sounds like a 'new thing' that God had not done to His people in previous generations.
In my mind there are TWO KEYS to those verses that MUST be embraced to grasp what is being said....when JEREMIAH pens his letter as a subject of the SOUTHERN KINGDOM of JUDAH....ISRAEL as a KINGDOM was GONE <---decimated by the Assyrians and I do not see the correlation between these verses and the SALVATION afforded men in the O.T. nor the verses which I posted which could easily be found in Acts or the Corinthian letters......

a. Written to the JEWS
b. COVENANT made with the HOUSE of ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS....
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#24
As Paul said: And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
The word 'perfect' there means complete and could mean it takes the NT saints for the completion of the promise to the OT saints. I don't see exactly how this ties in with the matter of whether or not the OT experienced the new birth.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#25
In my mind there are TWO KEYS to those verses that MUST be embraced to grasp what is being said....when JEREMIAH pens his letter as a subject of the SOUTHERN KINGDOM of JUDAH....ISRAEL as a KINGDOM was GONE <---decimated by the Assyrians and I do not see the correlation between these verses and the SALVATION afforded men in the O.T. nor the verses which I posted which could easily be found in Acts or the Corinthian letters......

a. Written to the JEWS
b. COVENANT made with the HOUSE of ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS....
But Ezekiel and Jeremiah put it in the future tense, something He will be doing but has not yet done up to that point.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#26
So they were not born again, and could not be born again until Christ finished His work of redemption, and then sent down the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.

At the same time, all the OT saints were justified (declared righteous or saved) by God's grace through faith starting with Abel. Hebrews chapter 11 makes that perfectly clear. But Paul ends that chapter thus: And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Heb 11:39,40)
I am so sorry man. This scripture (Hebrews 11:39, 40) does not say what you think it says. It still has not happened yet. Look here: Peter was speaking on that Pentecost Day. He said:

Acts 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,"

Time to back up and rethink your covenants. You can get a glimpse of that New Covenant description
HERE.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#27
Jesus has already enacted the New Covenant...in His Blood.

Heb_12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

1 Corinthians 11:25 (NASB) In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#28
Acts 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,"
"David is not ascended into the heavens" was said in a very specific context -- the ascension of Christ, which was totally unique after His resurrection. Peter was telling his audience that this Scripture did NOT apply to David but to Jesus: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption... He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. (vv 27,31).

But when Christ ascended with the OT saints, He took David, Abraham, and all the others with Him to Heaven (Eph 4:8-10): Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

And Paul confirmed this in Hebrews 12:23 (speaking of those who are presently in the New Jerusalem): To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect... [the OT saints]

There are two distinct groups of saints mentioned. The NT saints are shown as "the general assembly and church of the firstborn" while the OT saints are shown as "the spirits of just men made perfect".

And this ties in perfectly with what Paul says in Heb 11:40: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

It appears that none of the commentators have made this connection.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#29
But Ezekiel and Jeremiah put it in the future tense, something He will be doing but has not yet done up to that point.
Exactly.....AFTER THOSE DAYS <---which days is he talking about
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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#30
I say yes......David could not speak of his salvation in the present tense if he was not born again....and I will remind everyone that NO One can understand the word of GOD unless born from above <---Corinthians states this....Abraham was JUSTIFIED by faith IN THE O.T. and JOB fully understood the the resurrection......too much evidence to say they were not.......

What does Peter call those men of old that prophesied? HOLY MEN OF GOD

Can a lost man be considered HOLY.....NO!
Something different definitely happened to David and to the Prophets. If a person is not born again it is next to impossible to understand what they are saying in scripture. So they had special knowledge that came directly from God. This means that the Holy Spirit was helping them in some way that maybe we don't fully understand.

But...


If David was born-again like people are now, how could he put a man to death and take his wife?

And not feel remorse for it until someone brought it to his attention in the form of a sort of parable?


I don't have the answer. It just doesn't quite add up for me. If you read the psalms David was definitely saved, present tense, for him. He knew God. He knew the Holy Spirit. But he was allowed to walk in the flesh in a way we are not. And not even realize it.

What David and the Prophets had was special but I don't think it was quite the same as what we have in Christ Jesus.

But again, I don't quite understand what David and the Prophets were given.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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#31
Matthew 13:16-17
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.


These scriptures came to me after I posted.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#32
Exactly.....AFTER THOSE DAYS <---which days is he talking about
So are you saying today no one is experiencing the new birth? (where God's law/nature is being written on hearts of believing Jews and Gentiles).
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#33
Matthew 13:16-17
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.


These scriptures came to me after I posted.
That sounds like a referral to His incarnation, as in...

1 John 1:1-2 KJVS
[1] That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; [2] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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#34
That sounds like a referral to His incarnation, as in...

1 John 1:1-2 KJVS
[1] That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; [2] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
I think that is part of it. Not all of it.

I did have to look up what was meant by incarnation. I don't think I have ever heard that term.

Hope that doesn't make me a heathen...:LOL:
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#35
But Ezekiel and Jeremiah put it in the future tense, something He will be doing but has not yet done up to that point.
Ezekiel and Jeremiah were looking well past the Church Age and to the Second Coming of Christ, and the redemption and restoration of Israel by Christ (after gathering all the Jews worldwide to the land of Israel). But only a believing remnant would be saved and regenerated.

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jer 31:33)

We need to tie this in with Romans 11:25-36, where Paul ties the Second Coming to the covenant made with Israel (the houses of Israel and Judah) and its redemption:

ROMANS 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
 
Feb 28, 2016
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#36
ISA. 63:11.
Then He remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is He that brought them up out of the sea
with the Shepherd of His flock? where is he that put ))(His Holy Spirit within him?)))

EPH. 1:14.
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His Glory.
The Holy Spirit is the 'guarantee' of our INHERITANCE in The Kingdom of God - and remember,
'Flesh and Blood 'cannot' INHERIT the Kingdom of God'...

there is only ONE HOLY SPIRIT...

PETER 1:10-11-12.
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the Grace
that should come unto you:
11.
Searching what, or what manner of time The Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,
when It testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the Glory that should follow.
12.
Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things,
which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with The Holy Ghost
sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#37
So are you saying today no one is experiencing the new birth? (where God's law/nature is being written on hearts of believing Jews and Gentiles).
Come on dude, you know better than that crap........the application is TO ISRAEL.......the NORTHERN kingdom of ISRAEL ceased to exist in 721 B.C. and the Southern Kingdom of JUDAH ceased to exist in 587/6 B.C. and there has BEEN NO NATION of ISRAEL until 1947.....
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#38
Something different definitely happened to David and to the Prophets. If a person is not born again it is next to impossible to understand what they are saying in scripture. So they had special knowledge that came directly from God. This means that the Holy Spirit was helping them in some way that maybe we don't fully understand.

But...


If David was born-again like people are now, how could he put a man to death and take his wife?

And not feel remorse for it until someone brought it to his attention in the form of a sort of parable?


I don't have the answer. It just doesn't quite add up for me. If you read the psalms David was definitely saved, present tense, for him. He knew God. He knew the Holy Spirit. But he was allowed to walk in the flesh in a way we are not. And not even realize it.

What David and the Prophets had was special but I don't think it was quite the same as what we have in Christ Jesus.

But again, I don't quite understand what David and the Prophets were given.
Look.......I can ONLY go by the word of GOD and DAVID speaks of HIS SALVATION in the present tense.....and if you do not think saved people cannot commit horrific sins......no need to even write anything else......
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#39
Come on dude, you know better than that crap........the application is TO ISRAEL.......the NORTHERN kingdom of ISRAEL ceased to exist in 721 B.C. and the Southern Kingdom of JUDAH ceased to exist in 587/6 B.C. and there has BEEN NO NATION of ISRAEL until 1947.....
Maybe I'm not understanding you. Are you saying the Promise to Israel and Judah ceased, even though God has always reserved a remnant?

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(Rom 11:5)

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(Rom 11:29)
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#40
Maybe I'm not understanding you. Are you saying the Promise to Israel and Judah ceased, even though God has always reserved a remnant?

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(Rom 11:5)

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(Rom 11:29)
No migo.....I am saying that Jesus went unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, they rejected him, the city was decimated by the Romans, 1 million Jews killed, scattered into the wind and driven into the world. At the end of the age the remnant will look upon him whom they pierced, receive him and then this verse that we have been discussing will come to full fruition.