"Not by works" - false!

[fredoheaven]

See post #4 in this thread: I have already addressed this.

You are correct in implying that we are not saved through compliance with the law, but are you saying that Christians do not need to keep God's commandments?

Actually, the discussion has been already stopped here. By acknowledging the fact we are not saved by compliance with the law then the OP is flat wrong. God bless

 

[mailmandan]

This passage must be combined with Acts 3:19 to get the full picture.
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

So the true Gospel is repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21). But that is not salvation by works at all. It is salvation by grace through faith.

Yes, repentance towards God (change your mind) -- new direction of this change of mind — faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Two sides to the same coin.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Fastfredy0 said:
I was trying to show you that your understanding is questionable. I agree, I did not prove it. I can't prove you wrong as
You have not clarified how you define 'we deliberately/knowingly continue in sin" means in regard to "Jesus' sacrifice will NOT cover these sins".

@mailmandan said:
You need to define your terms - “deliberately continue sinning.” I defined my terms in posts #113 and #115. Are you teaching sinless perfection?

I don't need to define anything, I'm simply telling you what God has put in me.

I cannot provide you with absolute proof.
I'm just telling you what God has conveyed to me.

Seeing as, asked twice, to define what he means and seeing he refuses to articulate his position ... further discussion seems pointless.

 

[Guojing]

2 Peter 2:1
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves".


I would like to contend that the notion that salvation is given to us ONLY in return for believing in Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior is INCOMPLETE.


We ARE asked to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation:
Acts 16:30-31
" "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household" ".


HOWEVER, Jesus repeatedly told people to stop sinning, and we are warned that if we deliberately/knowingly continue in sin following the acceptance of Jesus into our lives, Jesus' sacrifice will NOT cover these sins:
Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins".

This of course makes sense.
If we SAY we follow Jesus but continue rebelling against God, then are we REALLY following Jesus?
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter".


So then, we must accept Jesus into our lives and believe in him.
AND we must also stop rebelling against God, even after we have accepted Jesus into our lives.


What I have said may be obvious to many, but all the time I hear excuses from Christians to justify their sinning:
"Nobody is perfect" - nobody has said that you are
"God will forgive me" - actually, according to Matt 7:21, if you continue to sin after accepting Jesus, Jesus' sacrifice won't cover your sin (verse above)
"We're human, and humans are fallible" - typical excuse!
"It is impossible not to sin, as we are not perfect" - this article sums it up very well: https://www.gotquestions.org/go-and-sin-no-more.html
Have you heard these kind of excuses too?


Christians have no excuses for deliberately/knowingly sinning:
1 John 1:6
"If, then, we say that we have fellowship with him, yet at the same time live in the darkness, we are lying both in our words and in our actions".

You believe keeping God's commandments is necessary for you to maintain your salvation?

 

[Guojing]

This passage must be combined with Acts 3:19 to get the full picture.
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

So the true Gospel is repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21). But that is not salvation by works at all. It is salvation by grace through faith.

Fascinating how you can use a statement Peter made to national Israel about their promised kingdom, and apply it to Paul's gospel of grace for the Body of Christ.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Fascinating how you can use a statement Peter made to national Israel about their promised kingdom, and apply it to Paul's gospel of grace for the Body of Christ.

You seem to be forgetting that believing Israel (the Jews) are called "the good olive tree" by Paul, into which Gentiles are grafted in as branches of "the wild olive tree", thus making the Church the metaphorical and spiritual "Israel of God". This in no way detracts from a future redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel on earth after the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[Radius]

When DBurrage gets to Heaven he is going to tell Moses and Abraham the tales of how he never broke the 10 commandments and preserved his own salvation without anyone's help. Christ will be diminished, DBurrage will exalt his works.

 

[Guojing]

You seem to be forgetting that believing Israel (the Jews) are called "the good olive tree" by Paul, into which Gentiles are grafted in as branches of "the wild olive tree", thus making the Church the metaphorical and spiritual "Israel of God". This in no way detracts from a future redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel on earth after the Second Coming of Christ.

I see, you see the Body of Christ now as the "spiritual Israel of God". That is covenant theology.

 

[crossnote]

2 Peter 2:1
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves".


I would like to contend that the notion that salvation is given to us ONLY in return for believing in Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior is INCOMPLETE.


We ARE asked to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation:
Acts 16:30-31
" "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household" ".


HOWEVER, Jesus repeatedly told people to stop sinning, and we are warned that if we deliberately/knowingly continue in sin following the acceptance of Jesus into our lives, Jesus' sacrifice will NOT cover these sins:
Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins".

This of course makes sense.
If we SAY we follow Jesus but continue rebelling against God, then are we REALLY following Jesus?
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter".


So then, we must accept Jesus into our lives and believe in him.
AND we must also stop rebelling against God, even after we have accepted Jesus into our lives.


What I have said may be obvious to many, but all the time I hear excuses from Christians to justify their sinning:
"Nobody is perfect" - nobody has said that you are
"God will forgive me" - actually, according to Matt 7:21, if you continue to sin after accepting Jesus, Jesus' sacrifice won't cover your sin (verse above)
"We're human, and humans are fallible" - typical excuse!
"It is impossible not to sin, as we are not perfect" - this article sums it up very well: https://www.gotquestions.org/go-and-sin-no-more.html
Have you heard these kind of excuses too?


Christians have no excuses for deliberately/knowingly sinning:
1 John 1:6
"If, then, we say that we have fellowship with him, yet at the same time live in the darkness, we are lying both in our words and in our actions".

I see, you see the Body of Christ now as the "spiritual Israel of God". That is covenant theology.

Just noticing how this thread has veered off the road and into a ditch.

 

[jaybird88]

Good works are the result, not the cause. By their fruits ye shall know them. Good works generally flow out of good fruit. Hebrews 10 in no way excludes this truth. Coming by faith includes turning away from darkness and looking to light. Making the choice to follow Jesus is not a work. Come just as you are. The blood of Jesus is the only thing that can wash us white as snow.

so no good works no salvation, thats what i been saying all along.

 

[jaybird88]

This only happened because he was between a rock and hard place, James and his thousands of Jews zealous for the law that you are trying to defend would have stoned him and those with him.

(Acts 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law)


(1 Cor 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law)

(1 Cor 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.)

(1 Cor 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.)

so this is just Paul telling people what they want to hear? not likely.

 

[jaybird88]

How silly a statement is that? AC was never a Christian. Therefore, your observation is fully in error as pertains to reference to A. Crowley.

your right, crowley was never a Christian, is was an open Satanist. he believed and taught that he was free from the law, he believed Lucifer came to free people from the law. does this sound familiar?
you can call it silly till your blue in the face, it will never change the fact that the end result of both these teachings are the exact same.

 

[jaybird88]

maybe the law is abolished, its not like they were written in stone or anything . . . .wait a sec, my mistake, they were written in stone, guess that means they were temporary.

 

[oyster67]

so no good works no salvation, thats what i been saying all along.

Good works are the evidence of salvation, not the cause. As long as we remember this, we are good to go.

 

[DBurrage]

Jesus’ blood does not give Christians a license to sin. What causes an uproar is when people seem to imply that salvation is based on our best efforts to stop sinning and commandment keeping. Then the line gets crossed into salvation by works.

Yes but that it not what is being said in this thread.
If you believe it is then you haven't taken the time to understand before launching a verbal attack on a fellow brother.

 

[DBurrage]

Actually, the discussion has been already stopped here. By acknowledging the fact we are not saved by compliance with the law then the OP is flat wrong. God bless

I have not mentioned the law.
Do you not know the difference between keeping God's commandments and living under Mosaic law?

 

[DBurrage]

You believe keeping God's commandments is necessary for you to maintain your salvation?

We are reconciled with God through belief in our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are told to
1. Have faith in Jesus, AND
2. Do our best to stop sinning and rebelling against God

We will never be able to stop sinning because of our imperfect nature and so we will never be able to reach the standard of God through any works.

BUT, the point of this thread is that if we do not consciously turn away from sin and do our best to stop rebelling against God once we accept Jesus into our lives, Jesus' sacrifice will not cover those sins:

Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins".

 

[Guojing]

We are reconciled with God through belief in our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are told to
1. Have faith in Jesus, AND
2. Do our best to stop sinning and rebelling against God

We will never be able to stop sinning because of our imperfect nature and so we will never be able to reach the standard of God through any works.

BUT, the point of this thread is that if we do not consciously turn away from sin and do our best to stop rebelling against God once we accept Jesus into our lives, Jesus' sacrifice will not cover those sins:

Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins".

Yep, it appears you believe works are necessary to ensure our sins remain covered. That is the correct interpretation?

 

[DBurrage]

Yep, it appears you believe works are necessary to ensure our sins remain covered. That is the correct interpretation?

If you believe that, you have not understood the point of this thread, even after 11 pages.

Don't just read the thread title, but the content too!

 

[oyster67]

I have not mentioned the law.
Do you not know the difference between keeping God's commandments and living under Mosaic law?

Do you believe that loving God and others is work? I ask this because loving God and loving others is keeping God's Commandments, according to Jesus.

The Mosaics were many. The Commandments that we are to live by are the above two.