Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
If one is going to live by the law - then he is obligated to live by all of it. There are no "parts" to the Law. Paul said that "coveting" was in the Law and it includes the 10 commandments.

Saying that some laws are for us and some are not is just watering down the Law to make it seem "do-able" but in reality "law-keepers" have a very low respect for the Law and in fact break the law every day.

Do the Sabbath Old Testament keepers stone those that don't follow the Sabbath as they are told to do?

Romans 10:4-5 (NASB)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

[SUP]5 [/SUP] For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.

We have died to the Law SO THAT we might live unto God.

Galatians 2:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.


There is no justification or right standing with God because one "keeps the law". Christians live by faith - faith in Christ and what He has already done and we live by His life in us now.

Galatians 3:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11[/SUP] Now
that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

The Law is NOT of faith and if you practice the Law - you must live by it.

Galatians 3:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."

When we are trying to keep the law of which circumcision and the Sabbath day is a part of - we are obligated to keep the whole law

(
Remember there are NO PARTS to the law - it is either all or live by Christ by grace through faith in His finished work on the cross and resurrection )

Galatians 5:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

We can trust the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ in us to lead us into life in Him. Let's eat from the tree of Life - which is Christ Himself in us.

The Law is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We were not meant to eat from that tree. That is for God.


We were meant to eat from the tree of Life which is Christ Himself. Choose Christ. He is our life.
He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Colossians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. ( NOT in the law of Moses )
 
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
113
It's simple - Christians are not under the law of Moses which includes the 10 commandments which includes the Sabbath keeping as outlined in the Old Covenant. We see the picture of resting from Gen. 2.

Christ Himself is the substance of what are types and shadows in the Old Testament which includes the 10 commandments including the Sabbath day rest. Col. 2:16-17

Come unto Me says the Lord Jesus Christ and I will give you rest.
I would like to hear you expand this if you have the time, because it is confusing to some to think they are no longer obligated to keep the commandment to not murder.
 
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
Matthew 7:21-23

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



as well as


Revelation 3:16-17

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
OK.
I know all the above.

BUT

What do YOU think could make one THINK they are saved but are not really saved?

I find this very interesting.
Answers with ALL scripture tell me nothing...
Scripture SUPPORTS what you're saying.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
It's nice how you picked out two verses about grace and spoke to those.
With all due respect sister, if I could call that. It jumped off the page. It’s what his hyper grace does. It teaches us to say no to self righteousness.

Did you notice that there were twice as many verses on WORKS in the book of Titus,which YOU brought up BTW.

Care to address those?
Yes those works come from the Grace of God’s kindness .He is kind and tendered hearted towards those who know they do not deserve His Mercy and Grace. Those who do should look for ...I never knew you, you worker of inquity.

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, . Tit 3:3

Yes as the grace of Christ according to the work of Christ works in us to both will and do His good pleasure. We will not be found with a righteousness of our own self. It is Christ who makes men differ from one another. Some boast as if they did not receive salvation and not a kick start placing them where Adam and Eve were before they violated one law. We receive it with no cost on their behalf it and must work in order to have the idea of grace coming from thier own work .
No. You don't care for works.
Even though the book of Titus CLEARLY states that they are NECESSARY.
Yes clearly. Without the work of Christ's faith working in us no man could please God.

The book ends the same way it began. Not self righteous works be with you

Tit 3:15 All that are with me salute thee. Greet them that love us in the faith. "Grace" be with you all. Amen.

Notice it does not say; let your own works be with you that would do despite to His grace.
 
Last edited:
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
I would like to hear you expand this if you have the time, because it is confusing to some to think they are no longer obligated to keep the commandment to not murder.
Yes Stunnedbygrace...
MANY FLAWS when one moves away from scripture to make up their own theology.
It doesn't work...
 
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
With all due respect sister, if I could call that. It jumped off the page. It’s what his hyper grace does. It teaches us to say no to self righteousness.



Yes those works come from the Grace of God’s kindness .He is kind and tendered hearted towards those who know they do not deserve His Mercy and Grace. Those who do should look for ...I never knew you, you worker of inquity.

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, . Tit 3:3

Yes as the grace of Christ according to the work of Christ works in us to both will and do His good pleasure. We will not be found with a righteousness of our own self. It is Christ who makes men differ from one another. Some boast as if they did not receive with no cost on their behalf it and must work in order to have the idea of grace coming from thier own work .

Yes clearly. Without the work of Christ's faith working in us no man could please God.

The book ends the same way it began. Not self righteous works be with you

Tit 3:15 All that are with me salute thee. Greet them that love us in the faith. "Grace" be with you all. Amen.

Notice it does not say; let your own works be with you that would do despite to His grace.
What is a SELF-RIGHTEOUS work???
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
I did not say a LOST CAUSE......and

Can I ask you a question....After a period of time where one is not receptive to the truth what does Jesus expect us to do?
Uuummm..... check again what you believe to be the truth?
 
Jun 5, 2017
3,675
56
0
It's simple - Christians are not under the law of Moses which includes the 10 commandments which includes the Sabbath keeping as outlined in the Old Covenant.
Here you go grace the other part of your post here.

God's Law (10 commandments) and the laws of Moses (part 1)

God's Law (the 10 commandments) and the laws of Moses (Levitical, sacrificial, ceremonial, ordinances, civil etc) which were Shadows of things to come. Gods Law (the 10 commandments) is the very foundation of all of God's Word in the Old and the New Testament. It is the foundation of both the Old Covenant and the New Covenant (Ex 20:1:17; Eze 36:26-27; Jer 31:31-34; Heb 8:8-10; 10:10-12) God's Law (the 10 commandments) are not the same with the laws of Moses which were written in a book and were a Shadow of things to come (Jesus).

The Law of God (10 commandments) is the very foundation of both the Old and the New Covenants because it reveals to us the character of God and gives us the knowledge of what sin is if we break any of God's Laws (Ex 20:1-17; 1John 3:4; Rom 3:20). The purpose of God's Law is to show us that we are all guilty before God as sinners in need of a Saviour to prepare us to meet Jesus so that he can save us from our sins so that we can follow Him in newness of life (Gal 3:24).

Just as in the New Covenant the Law of God shows the standard of God's righteousness it does not provide a way of bringing us back to God whenever we should sin. This was the reason for the laws of Moses in the Old Covenant. When any person sinned (broke any of God's 10 commandments) the laws of Moses (Levitical animal, meat, drink offerings, ceremonial, ecclesiastical, New Moons, holy days) provided a means of obtaining forgiveness of sin. The book of Moses (also called "Torah" in Hebrew and "Pentateuch from the Greek" is the first five books of the Bible Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy written by Moses) This was given by God to Moses to;

1. Provide the history of the 7 Day week of the creation of all things and the Creator (Genesis)
2. Provide the history of the fall of mankind into sin and our destruction because of sin with a great flood (Genesis)
3. Provide the history of God’s faithful people that followed God through this period (the minority Genesis and Exodos).

4. Provide the history of God’s covenant to Abraham and his seed because they obeyed God through faith and how God worked through his chosen people (Genesis and Exodus)

5. Provide history of the oppression of Gods people from those that do not follow God (Exodus)
6. Provide history of the deliverance of God’s people from oppression (Exodus)
7. Provide history of how God gave His Law (10 commandments) to his people which was spoken by God, written by God on two tables of stone from Sinai. (Exodus)

8. Provide a description of the plan of salvation from sin revealed through the Priestly Sanctuary service, ceremonial laws and animal sacrificial system that include lessons from feast and holy days, new moons and ceremonial Sabbaths connected to these feasts (e.g. The Passover, Day of Atonement, Feast of Trumpets etc.) that all point to the coming of Jesus as the Saviour of the world. (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy)

9. The rest of the Book of Moses (Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) outlines laws of Moses that are related to (the sanctuary service, ceremonial laws, ordinances, annual New Moons and feasts days civil and health laws etc).

The Book of Moses (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) is based around God’s 10 commandments but is not God’s 10 commandments. It describes what the 10 commandment are, how they were given and provides the background as to why God’s Law was given as well as providing a prescription if God’s people should sin and break any of his 10 commandments through the Sanctuary service, ceremonial laws and sacrificial animal systems, Feast days, Holy Days, New Moons and ceremonial Sabbaths etc. which were a shadow of things to come (Col 2:16-17, Heb 10:1, Eph 2:14) and pointed to Jesus as our sacrifice and great high priest. The Torah (Book of Moses) is not the Law of God but a background to WHY it was given. It was placed in the side of the “Ark of the Covenant” but not inside the Ark of the Covenant with the 10 commandments. The Torah or Book of Moses is complimentary to God’s Law but is not God’s Law. The book or laws of Moses was to reveal God's plan of salvation from sin pointing to the coming of Jesus.

God's Law (10 commandments) are the foundation of the Old and New Covenants which can only be kept by faith in the promises of God's Word as it leads us to the foot of the cross. This is where God writes His Law of love in our hearts as we walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. (Rom 8:1)

The Law of God (10 commandments) is the work of God (Ex 32:16) whatsoever God does is forever nothing can be added to it or taken away (Ecc 3:14). God's Law is perfect converting the soul (Ps 19:7). It is the very foundation of the Old and New Covenants (Ex 20:1:17, Heb 8:10-12). God's Law was spoken by God himself to His people (Ex 20:1-22). Jesus says Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away (Matt 25:35). Gods Law is still in force today (Ps 111:7-8, Rev 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1John 3:5-8, 1John 2:3-4 etc.). The Law of God reveals sin to us so we can see ourselves as we truly are sinners in need of a Saviour (Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4). It is the great standard of the judgement (Ecc 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1John 3:4, Acts 17:31). God's Law is our teacher revealing sin and the character of God and brings us to Christ at the foot of the cross that we might be saved by faith by Him who loves us and washed us in His own blood (Gal 3:24; Rev 1:5). God writes His Law in our hearts so that we become like him and we follow him because we love him (Heb 8:10-12; ) LOVE is the fulfilling (doing) of God's Law (Rom 13:10). This is why Jesus says to those that love him If you love me keep my commandments (John 14:15).

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (Matt 5:17-18)

The fulfilling of the God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh (carnal mind = sin) but after the Spirit (new mind with God's Law written on the heart) (Rom 8:1). That the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled IN US who walk not after the flesh (carnal mind = sin) but after the spirit (Rom 8:4; 6). Salvation is God fulfilling his Law in us saving us from sin. Finally the result of God's salvation can be seen as " Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus (Rev 14:12). God's people with the character of Jesus saved by faith through love.

So you should be able to see that the God's Law (10 commandments) are not the laws of Moses that where a Shadow of things to come. God's Law is foever (3:14) because it is the work of God himself and he wants to fulfill it in us (the plan of salvation) Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (John 8:34-36)


This may also help as well to show the differences between God's Law (10 commandments) and the laws of Moses and how they were always separate from each other one the work of God himself and the other written by Moses (inspired by God).

[TABLE="class: cms_table_MsoNormalTable"]
[TR]
[TD] God’s Law
10 Commandments
The Decalogue
(Ex 20:1-17)[/TD]
[TD="width: 44%"] Book and laws of Moses
Torah, “Pentateuch”
The ceremonial/civil laws and ordinances
(Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 54%"] Written on Stone
(Ex 31:18)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 44%"] Written in a book,
(Deut 31:24,7; Deut 31:24)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 54%"] Placed in the Ark
(Deut 10:5)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 44%"] Placed beside the Ark
(Deut 31:25)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 54%"] Written by God's finger
(Ex 31:18, 32:16)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 44%"] Written by Moses'
(Deut 31:9; Ex 24:4)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 54%"] Written on two tables of stone
(Deut 4:13)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 44%"] Written in a book
(Deut 31:24)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 54%"] Spoken by God
(Ex 20:1,22)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 44%"] Spoken by Moses
(Ex 24:3)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 54%"] God gave
(Ex 31:18)[/TD]
[TD="width: 44%"] Moses gave
(Deut 31:24-26)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 54%"] Describes how to love God and our neighbour
(Ex 20:1-17, Matt 22:35-40)[/TD]
[TD="width: 44%"] Describes the plan of salvation
I
ncluding the history of our world, creation, the fall of mankind the promise of salvation which included ceremonial laws, the sanctuary service and sacrificial system for sin with feast days, new moons and ceremonial Sabbaths which were a shadows on things to come (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy Col 2:16-16, Heb 10:1, Eph 2:14-15)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 54%"] The Law of God is Forever
(Ecc 3:14)[/TD]
[TD="width: 44%"] Ceremonial Laws done away
Earthly sanctuary and sacrificial sin offerings, feast days, new moons, ceremonial Sabbaths nailed to the cross
(Eph 2:14)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 54%"] Breaking Gods Law = sin
Sin is the transgression of God’s Law
(1 John 3:4)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 44%"] Prescribes laws for cleansing and forgiveness of sin
Included anearthly sanctuary and sacrificial sin offerings, which pointed to Jesus and was completed at his death. Does not identify what sin is (Lev 1:1-17)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 54%"] Shows us our need of salvation and
shows us that we are sinners
Shows us whatsin is and our need of salvation
(Gal 3:24, 1John 3:4)[/TD]
[TD="width: 44%"] Foreshadows the plan of salvation
pointing to Jesus as our sacrifice for sin and Great high priest does not show what sin is! Fulfilled when Jesus died
(Lev 4,5,6, Heb 4:14, 9,10, John 1:29)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 54%"] Called the 10 Commandments
(Ex 20:1-17)[/TD]
[TD="width: 44%"] Called Ceremonial Laws Statutes, Ordinances, decrees and feast days
(Ex, Lev, Deut)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 54%"] Still in force today
(Ps 111:7-8, Rev 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1John 3:5-8, 1John 2:3-4 etc.)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 44%"] Not in force today
Ceremonial Laws, earthly sanctuary and sacrificial system pointing to Jesus is nailed to the cross and no longer required
(Eph 2:15; Col 2:14-17)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 54%"] Great standard in the Judgement
(Ecc 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1John 3:4, Acts 17:31)[/TD]
[TD="width: 44%"] Judges nothing
(Col 2:16)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Now show me from my two posts from God's Word what is not correct?
Show me just one bible verse that says we not longer need to keep God's 7th Day Sabbath anymore?

God bless and good night all :rolleyes:
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
OK.
I know all the above.

BUT

What do YOU think could make one THINK they are saved but are not really saved?

I find this very interesting.
Answers with ALL scripture tell me nothing...
Scripture SUPPORTS what you're saying.
ohhhh

Matthew 7:21-23,Revelation 3:16-17

what i get from these

is people will put their faith in things outside of Jesus

and because of that
not have faith in Him
 
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
ohhhh

Matthew 7:21-23,Revelation 3:16-17

what i get from these

is people will put their faith in things outside of Jesus

and because of that
not have faith in Him
You mean like a different religion?
Just trying to be a "good person"? (but not knowing Jesus)
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
I would like to hear you expand this if you have the time, because it is confusing to some to think they are no longer obligated to keep the commandment to not murder.

No problem. I have said this many times before but I will once more for the viewers of the thread.

People often say to those that speak of the grace of God and that they have died to the law and been released from the law and are not under the law of Moses anymore that they believe they are without "laws" now.


We do have laws in the New Covenant. They are exciting laws that bring life and wholeness to us all - because these are all Christ Himself in us.

There is no greater revelation than to know Him and the Father
and to plumb the depths of their love and grace towards us which Paul says in Eph. 2:7 - the Father will be doing for all the ages to come to us.

Ephesians 2:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Jesus fulfilled the law. The law was a mere shadow of the real thing which was Jesus.

Read the law to see Jesus in it and to know that Jesus did that for us and His life in us now leads us in all things. Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.

We now live by:

1) The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. ( Romans 8:2 )

2) The law of love ( Romans 13:10 James 2:8 )

3) The law of faith ( Romans 3:27 and the law of Moses is NOT of faith - Gal. 3:12 )

4) The law of liberty ( James 1:25 )

5) The law of Christ - which is Christ Himself in us. ( Gal. 6:2 )

These are what will stop us from murdering people.

We can trust the Holy Spirit in us to lead us in all affairs of life. We don't go back to the law of Moses that were a shadow of the real thing which is Christ in us.. Jesus is more then enough
.

Yes...we glory in the laws that we have in the New Covenant because they are all Christ Himself living in and through us. ( Gal.2:20 and Col. 3:3 )

Get this wrong and we create a religion which really nullifies the grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to.

Galatians 5:22-23 (NASB)

[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

[SUP]23 [/SUP]
gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
 
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
I don't think that's what he is doing. But we will see what he answers. :)
One either agrees with him or one doesn't.
I like to read the ENTIRE N.T. and not do it by verses.

I don't see hyper-grace in there and I don't see OSAS in there.

Since we're talking I'll also say that too many persons use the internet today instead of going to good bible believing churches.

Off the soap-box!!
 
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
113
What is a SELF-RIGHTEOUS work???
I would like to take a stab at answering that...:)

I believe a self righteous work is to think you are pleasing to God or are approved of God, by what you do outwardly, according to the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law.

For instance, to believe God approves of you for always keeping the law to not murder because you have never shot or strangled anyone to death. And to then compound the problem by judging one who has done so to be worthy of death, because the spirit of the law avails a man. The letter of the law kills a man.

So this why Paul said: you who condemn them, why do you do the same things? (In your heart, in spirit, with the outside being clean looking while on the inside, in spirit, you have anger and filth.
 

Limey410v2

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2017
416
77
28
Hi Limey410v2

[FONT=&quot]How many commandments are in God’s 10 commandments? Seems like you are getting the God's Law mixed up with the laws of Moses that were finished at the cross. These posts may help linked.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Gods Law and the laws of Moses (1)

Gods Law and the laws of Moses (2) [/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Shadows of things to come (1)
Shadows of things to come (2)
Shadows of things to come (3) [/FONT]

God bless you all:rolleyes:
It is God's law, given by Moses. Also known as the Law of Moses. Remember God tried, but the Nation didn't want to hear directly from Him.
 
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
113
One either agrees with him or one doesn't.
I like to read the ENTIRE N.T. and not do it by verses.

I don't see hyper-grace in there and I don't see OSAS in there.

Since we're talking I'll also say that too many persons use the internet today instead of going to good bible believing churches.

Off the soap-box!!
I do see OSAS in there, AS LONG AS we continue in trust, seeing that our hearts do not become hardened in mistrust as with Israel in the desert.
 
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
Sorta like being self-employed I suppose.
LOL

That's just toooo good !

Exactly right !

It's persons that work, work, work, but they don't even know why!
And they're not getting paid.

Thanks Tourist.
It would have taken ME two pages to 'splain that !!