Not By Works

[PeterJens]

So what is the difference between the term 'believe' and 'faith' since many consider the two words to have the same meaning?

I like this question. And the answer will be probably each reader has their own view.
Each culture will also have their view.

Now look at these verses

Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
Gen 15:6

Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness.
Rom 4:9

So based on these two verses and references to them, belief and faith
in God are the same thing. Did not know that, but now I do.

 

[dcontroversal]

Sorry but I'm confused.

At what point in time was Abraham considered righteous?
You say Abraham believed God and obeyed him "God told him to go so he did"
So he obeyed God

Then you seem to saying he was declared righteous long after he packed up his bags and went out.

Amen....Abraham believed GOD and he was accounted righteous......<---Paul concluded that a man is justified by faith without works BEFORE GOD......

 

[dcontroversal]

I already showed you in post #21627. You still have not shown me the words "UN-sealed" in the Bible.

In regards to Revelation 3:5 - "He who overcomes. . . I will never blot out his name from the book of life." The "overcomer" mentioned in this letter to Sardis is the Christian. Compare this with 1 John 5:4: "Everyone who is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

*All genuine believers are "overcomers!" Praise God!

Certain people see in Revelation 3:5 the picture of God’s pen poised, ready to strike out the name of any Christian who sins. They read into it like this: "If you mess up and don’t win the victory, then you’re going to lose your salvation! In fact, I will erase your name from the Book of Life!"

But that is NOT what the verse says. Jesus is giving a promise here, not a warning.

My personal view is that the book of the LIVING contains the names of every human that will come into existence and that their names are only removed when they reject the saving faith of Christ.....

 

[mailmandan]

The demons BELIEVE that God is real...this does not equate to SAVING FAITH and their destiny is sealed already....redemption is NOT available unto them......!

Amen! The demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" (James 2:19) but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In other words, the demons do not "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

 

[stonesoffire]

My personal view is that the book of the LIVING contains the names of every human that will come into existence and that their names are only removed when they reject the saving faith of Christ.....

I've always thought this to be true too. Makes sense.

 

[PHart]

And we don't still be a new creation by what we do or don't do.

Right. We continue to be a new creation by what we believe, not by what we do. Ours works simply prove we are still believing in Christ. Which is the same believing we started to have when we first got saved. It's not new believing. It's a continued believing that began when we first believed--continued believing that keeps the one-time sacrifice of Christ, which is always on the altar in heaven, and Christ the High Priest who lives forevermore, interceding on our behalf. Stop believing and you no longer have that sacrifice and ministry 'remaining' to deal with your sin (Hebrews 10:26). You have nothing left but to look forward to the wrath that only faith in Christ can rescue you from.

It amazes me that the gospel is so messed up with this works-based religion...

It's not a works earned salvation. You just keep hearing it that way. Really.

You only know what you've been taught, and you, like so many Christians, are simply incapable of understanding any thought about works in salvation outside of your own. Been there, done that. I know what I'm talking about. It's called 'indoctrination'. One of the signs of spiritual maturity is to be able to consider thought outside of your own thinking, believing, and experiences. It starts by knowing that we have to go with what the Bible says, not what even theologically schooled, respected leaders are telling us. That's a big leap for most Christians, but it's one you're going to have to make. You have to be a Berean without predetermined doctrines guiding your Bible reading to discern spiritual truth. Learning does not equate to spiritual truth, unbiased and impartial HONESTY does. That means being willing to acknowledge when a respected leader in the church teaches something that does not jibe with what you have read for yourself in the Bible.

...what are His commandments? John tells us exactly what they are in the New Covenant.

1 John 3:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

And what did John ALSO say about 'His commandments'?
He said the person who says he knows God but does not keep His commandments IS A LIAR.

"4The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:4 NASB)

That makes works necessary in salvation. Not as the way to earn salvation, as you seem to only be able to hear what works in salvation means, but as the obligatory and natural outcome of one who has had the old man crucified in his most inner part.

I would be shocked if you STILL disagree with this and continue to assign what I'm saying to a 'works earn salvation' argument.

 

[dcontroversal]

Amen! The demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" (James 2:19) but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In other words, the demons do not "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

Remember the testing by the devil....Jesus was tempted 40 days in the wilderness before the account we have recorded in the gospels....and what exactly did the devil say.....

IF you are the SON of GOD<----the word IF shows doubt.......just a point to ponder......!

 

[PeterJens]

One simple observation. Believers have over time been both armenian and calvanist.

Many have started in one camp and moved to another, or accepted parts of both.
The problem comes when people start saying if you do not accept one set of ideas of
part of these insights you are not a believer.

It has always been the more conservative conformists talk of the freer brethren as
easy believers, and the other side call the conservative folk legalists.

Now what has differentiated folk is the love they share and the respect God fearing folk
have for one another. These arguments have been going on since the beginning of the
gospel, so if you believe in grace you need to exercise it, or you will end up declaring your
own lack of communion with the Lord.

In a sense those who are the elect will never lose their faith, because they are Gods elect.
But as with all things, we can only walk in the light we have been given, and encourage others
to walk in Gods love towards others.

If you want examples of this see the friends of Calvin and Luther and how things worked out,
and you will get an idea of how much difficulty there is over these concepts and we will never
fully agree as they are shades of insight and perspective, and probably all are true.

 

[followjesus]

Sorry but I'm confused.

At what point in time was Abraham considered righteous?
You say Abraham believed God and obeyed him "God told him to go so he did"
So he obeyed God

Then you seem to saying he was declared righteous long after he packed up his bags and went out.

Not at all He was declared righteous and that was fulfilled when He offered isaac. what im saying is abram obeyed God because of Faith long before that. the first mention of abram was God telling Him " Get up and leave your home and go to a place ill show you.....and abram got up and went Like God told Him to do. its not as if abram refused to obey God and just said i believe and was declared righteous. He believed and actually obeyed because of His belief in God, from the start. When God declares Him righteous through His belief, abraham had already obeyed that belief. He wasnt just saying im righteous i believe and then refusing to obey, he was never doing that.

when the Bible talks of Belief or faith its that faith the faith that actually does believe what God has said, and because the belief is sincere obedience is opresent. we refuse to do, because we refuse to really believe. Faith that saves is the faith of abraham the faith that believes truly and if we do God is saying

" repent and obey The Gospel and i will give you eternal Life"<<<< if anyone really believes that they will never have an issue with obedience because they Believe God. if you believe God sends the Holy spirit to us, if you believe Jesus died as a propititation, and that He has made us able and made us partakers of the divine nature as peter makes Clear then its time to put belief into action because thats what belief is in the Bible, its not what man made it like well " I knowJesus is Gods Son and He died for my sins and rose again, i know that happened so im righteous and dont need to actually do what God said to actaully do. abrams belief is sincere so the action is automatic. thats why He was declared righteous because He obeyed God, He obeyed God because He believed thats what James is telling us in chapter 2 about faith and works completing each other. if we believe all the stuff paul says about being dead and risen with Jesus, being given the Holy spirit, a new birth ect were empowered to do what were commanded to do.

thats why we have to believe because if we do well act and that saves. Faith and action because without action faith is a word or a thought and an illusion. Faith aves because it brings obedience to God all because of everything Jesus did. or what you would prolly call " the finished works ofthe cross" <<< oif you really get whats been done then you Know the spirit of God is living in you and thats all the power you need to perform....it just comes down to the Heart if its with God or sin, its not that were unable now its that we refuse to believe whats been done.


its why were saved by faith, and at the same time were judged by our deeds, because faith and deeds are One

 

[terry_newyork_usa]

So an overcomer is NOT someone who actually overcomes, it's someone who accepted Christ X number of years ago after saying "the sinner's prayer," whether they actually overcome and remain faithful to Christ or not. Do I interpret you correctly?

I already showed you in post #21627. You still have not shown me the words "UN-sealed" in the Bible.

In regards to Revelation 3:5 - "He who overcomes. . . I will never blot out his name from the book of life." The "overcomer" mentioned in this letter to Sardis is the Christian. Compare this with 1 John 5:4: "Everyone who is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

*All genuine believers are "overcomers!" Praise God!

Certain people see in Revelation 3:5 the picture of God’s pen poised, ready to strike out the name of any Christian who sins. They read into it like this: "If you mess up and don’t win the victory, then you’re going to lose your salvation! In fact, I will erase your name from the Book of Life!"

But that is NOT what the verse says. Jesus is giving a promise here, not a warning.

 

[Magenta]

Magenta,

Jesus is God, in the same way that you are your Father. hear me out.

I know you would like to rewrite the Bible Jason, but I am not interested in your rewrite when you strip Jesus of His divinity, which is explicitly stated. I always find it so odd when you try to tell others that they must accept what Scripture teaches. Your response to someone just a short time ago about believing only parts of what Paul wrote brought this back to me again, because you only accept parts of what John wrote; you do not trust him enough to accept the full testimony of his gospel or the full weight of Scripture as a whole, which bears out the truth of Who Jesus really is. In chapter eight Jesus is discussing this with with the scribes and pharisees, and He tells them they will die in their sins if they do not believe Who He is. Oh, I know, your response, you will say He said He was the Son of Man and the Son of God even but that is not all Jesus said, you just cannot absorb the rest of it for some reason.

 

[terry_newyork_usa]

So the proof of genuine faith is works of obedience, right?

James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. Man is saved through faith and not works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith "in Christ alone" conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

 

[mailmandan]

So the proof of genuine faith is works of obedience, right?

We show our faith by our works. Works of obedience are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation.

 

[terry_newyork_usa]

"Earnest money" is a deposit, it is NEVER a guarantee, and the use of the word "guarantee" is an unfortunate mistranslation used based on the biases of the translators. A deposit is valid only if conditions continue to be met. An engagement ring is a sign of earnest, signifying things to come ONLY IF conditions continue to be met.

Show me in the Bible where it says believers become "UN-sealed" by the Holy Spirit. Believers are described as faithful and are sealed UNTO/FOR the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30).

Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words
<1,,728,arrabon> originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; in Ephesians 1:14; 4:30 particularly of their eternal inheritance.

2 Corinthians 1:21 - Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Praise God!

 

[followjesus]

You mean 1 John 5.

amen butthats first John 5

 

[PHart]

IF you are the SON of GOD<----the word IF shows doubt.......just a point to ponder......!

I'm curious, have you checked this out?
There is a use of the word 'if' which actually indicates certainty, not doubt. For example, in 1 Corinthians 15:2.

But anyway, the demons believe that God exists in one person (Deuteronomy 6:4?), but they do not trust in God for salvation. They have 'faith' that can not save. It's the common faith of people in general. Jews took a misguide comfort out of believing that 'the Lord our God is one' (paraphrased). But it is trusting in God that actually solicits salvation. That's the underlying message in James' discourse about the faith of demons that largely only Jews will get.

 

[mailmandan]

So an overcomer is NOT someone who actually overcomes, it's someone who accepted Christ X number of years ago after saying "the sinner's prayer," whether they actually overcome and remain faithful to Christ or not. Do I interpret you correctly?

Here comes the straw man argument. I didn't mention anything about the sinner's prayer joined with unfaithfulness. 1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. ​This is faith that continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.

 

[terry_newyork_usa]

2 Corinthians 1:21 HCSB - "He has also sealed us and given us the Spirit as a down payment in our hearts."
The word "guarantee" is a misnomer. "Earnest" money or a down payment is valid only if conditions continue to be met. If conditions don't continue to be met, the deal's off.

Colossians 1:21-23:
[FONT=&quot]21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]23 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

It's conditional!!!!

Show me in the Bible where it says believers become "UN-sealed" by the Holy Spirit. Believers are described as faithful and are sealed UNTO/FOR the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30).

Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words
<1,,728,arrabon> originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; in Ephesians 1:14; 4:30 particularly of their eternal inheritance.

2 Corinthians 1:21 - Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Praise God!

 

[dcontroversal]

I'm curious, have you checked this out?
There is a use of the word 'if' which actually indicates certainty, not doubt. For example, in 1 Corinthians 15:2.

But anyway, the demons believe that God exists in one person (Deuteronomy 6:4?), but they do not trust in God for salvation. They have 'faith' that can not save. It's the common faith of people in general. Jews took a misguide comfort out of believing that 'the Lord our God is one' (paraphrased). But it is trusting in God that actually solicits salvation. That's the underlying message in James' discourse about the faith of demons that largely only Jews will get.

Have you ever heard that no one wins the "what if" game......?

 

[followjesus]

"Earnest money" is a deposit, it is NEVER a guarantee, and the use of the word "guarantee" is an unfortunate mistranslation used based on the biases of the translators. A deposit is valid only if conditions continue to be met. An engagement ring is a sign of earnest, signifying things to come ONLY IF conditions continue to be met.

thats it exactly, there are conditions not made by any faction but By The Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and repeated by all the apostles in various wordings. I like the structure of pauls letters because they are structuured exactly as the Gospel is. He begins with the Goodness of God, the Graciousness of God to give His Son to death for our sins, He explains all the meanung of the cross, how weve been baptized into His death, How we have received the spirit of holiness, He explains that its allll for the purpose od bringing the gentiles and disobedient of israel into the obedience of Faith in Jesus Christ.

His letters first equip us with the Knowledge of Gods Power that works in us and then He explains all the conditions and warnings. i understand why peter said " Pauls letters are hard to grasp and can easily be distorted" because im sure there was a gog conditionless form way Back then based on accepting a fw verses of pauls letters and ignoring all the conditions. with the acceptions of romans and a couple small letters thier all structured the same way. theres all the truths that God did for us to make us able and acceptable, and theres also all the instruction and warnong and condition now that we have received all of the grace to make us new and able.