Not By Works

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Dec 9, 2011
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You guys talk as if works are totally obsolete and irrelevant.. there not
Romans 4:1
King James Version(KJV)

1.)What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2.)For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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sure it can. a unrighteous person can feed the hungry, visit the sick, write a check to a church or Christian organization. anyone can do these and other righteous acts. but, doing so because you are a believer is a different thing.

it's like I've heard folks say " you cannot be happy without Jesus". sure you can. there are a lot of folks out right now watching football, getting hammered , taking God's name in vain, etc..... and are very happy. but, unless they come to Christ before there life ends, the party will come to a tragic end in the judgement,
of course the difference is, those are not righteous works, But filthy rags, or self righteousness.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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There's only one definition for righteous, & that's God's definition, not yours.

Yep. And you will NEVER meet that standard..

Unless you are born again, and are resurrected with a glorified body free of sin, Until then, YOU WILL FALL SHORT..


To say otherwise is to be deceived, and prove there is no truth in you (1 John 1)
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Youre right- our works cannot earn our salvation. HOWEVER, God only gives the gift of grace to those who obey Him. I know this is hard for some to understand.

If there is a group of people, some wearing green shirts, and some wearing blue shirts, and I said I would give everyone wearing a green shirt a gift, that's easy to understand. Now let's try with action- some of them are standing, and some are sitting, and I choose to give my gift to those who are standing. Nothing on their part earned my GIFT, I simply decided to give it to some and not to others.

God does not give the gift of grace to all people. He CHOOSES to give it to those who are trying to obey Him. But their efforts do not earn it- if they could earn it they wouldn't need the Gift.

Now if I knew this, and wanted the gift, I'd put on a green shirt and stand up. But that doesn't earn it.

I think this is dangerous, It says God gave a gift based on a persons standing or sitting (status),

The fact is, as Paul states, ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT. so we are all in the same boat. When God looks at us, there are no people standing or sitting, we are all in the same boat. So he either

1. Gives it to all of us
2. Rejects to give it to anyone
3. Offers it to everyone, and not force anyone to take it, The ones who receive it based on FAITH in HIS WORK, are the ones who RECEIVE IT.


Scripture answers this question of which one God chose to do.


John 1: 12 But as many as have RECIEVED him, to THEM he gave the power or right to become SONS OF GOD.
 
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Mar 14, 2011
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Or again it's like if someone gave you a ten million dollar mansion, handed you the keys and the address, and you had to walk to your car, and drive to the address, and then said, "My walking and driving earned me this mansion." That's rediculous- no amount of walking and driving earned you that free gift. HOWEVER, if you didn't DO what you had to do to get there, you would not get the gift.

God wants to give us the gift of heaven, but we have to go get it. He does not bring it to us, He says to come to Him and He will give.
Yeah, But here is the difference.

God gave you the keys, and the address, THEN TOOK YOU THERE ON HIS BACK.

You did not drive anywhere.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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I just posted this in another... Abraham believed was Counted righteousness then did a work to show or prove his faith... Circumcisions.. You can't throw out works.. they prove your faith
Yes,I agree,If you are saying,faith Is proven to man by good physical works that man can recognize,but GOD does not have to see works to discern a persons faith.JESUS said,the words he spoke were Spirit and Life.The body counts for nothing.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Yeah, But here is the difference.
God gave you the keys, and the address, THEN TOOK YOU THERE ON HIS BACK.
You did not drive anywhere.
This summarises the difference between the ethics.

Listening, obeying, understanding, doing, walking is not actions, Jesus is actually doing
it all, we are just passive participants.

Now this is obviously not true. Look at one owns experience. You have to put effort
in, let the words and ideas soak through you.

So this must be religious language, talking about justification or something.
But what we are talking about is our walk, the effects of healing, purification, the
renewing of our minds. These things change us.

Paul himself says if we sow the flesh we reap destruction, is we sow to the Spirit
we reap eternal life.

So part of our walk is us. And we are saved so we can walk.

The real question is does this walk effect our status, or threaten our salvation.
It appears that salvation is a promise or hope of the destination of the journey, but
it is not a certainty or guarantee.

Now EG & G7 believe you cannot loose election once received, we would hold you
can. Paul expresses this uncertainty in his letters, suggesting the preaching could
be in vain, even though he knew at one point the audience he is writing to responded
in faith.

But this is too insecure for some, because they want to know, to be safe, to not
have a question over our relationship. Once you have uncertainty, they want to analyse
and setup rules, and make sure they are within them, which is legalism. But it is love that
is our foundation, upon which we are immovable.

But our opponents do not have this foundation or understand its language. Which explains
why they have such insecurity and want to have a doctrine of eternal security.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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Faith is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. Agreed?
Demonstrate, show, prove.. all words.. but I'm closed minded.:rolleyes:.
Its true that the only way to show your faith to man Is by demonstrating It by action but GOD does a work In that person first,counting their faith as righteousness,creating the born of the Spirit of GOD person In CHRIST unto good works that was before ordained that we should walk In them.
 
L

LaurenTM

Guest
so, we need to be careful here and not lump everything together Including not lumping all works into the "filthy rags" category.

all OUR righteousness...now that is clear....OUR righteousness...we are not nor ever can be righteous, yet many Christians seem to either forget that or never really let it sink in We are made righteous...justified...then continually undergoing sanctification. That justification and sanctification comes from and is done by God.

what I quoted is not speaking of works...but rather righteousness...I hope you see that I actually don't know what you're referring to when you talk about quoting something. Sure hope it's not that Isaiah "filthy rags" verse. Too often misquoted.

the main contention with regards to works in this thread, is the salvation equals grace PLUS works or begin with grace and stay save with works It's important that people don't think that they can work their way to heaven. Salvation is a gift. It's not earned(Eph 2:8-9). At the same time, charity/works/fruits can't be disregarded as junk/worthless. God wants us to be fruitful and do His will(Eph 2:10).

A balance is needed to discourage trying to earning salvation(which is not possible) while, at the same time, encouraging and giving value and dignity to works prepared in advance for the Christian to do(which are cherished and desired by God).

:)


I am not sure what you are trying to say

the bottom line is that we do not have righteousness

our works do not have righteousness

however, through the Holy Spirit we do works that are righteous in God's sight

works stemming from ourselves are not righteous

so like I said, I don't know if you are finding something you disagree with in that or what

so...dunno what else to say


A balance is needed to discourage trying to earning salvation(which is not possible) while, at the same time, encouraging and giving value and dignity to works prepared in advance for the Christian to do(which are cherished and desired by God).
would anyone discourage works of any kind if they are 'good'?

probably not...however not all works are inspired by God

again, dunno what you are trying to state

no one has negated works per se...it is the working for or keeping of salvation that is not biblical
 
Dec 9, 2011
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You throw out grace like its the subject.. you can count and hope if you want... Faith and walking with Christ produces .. if you have nothing you're doing nothing but reading.. hearer only
Without grace,how would we be acceptable to GOD?
Although Faith IS necessary to access this grace.
 
L

LaurenTM

Guest
thx Mr Grace....:eek:

hope you are enjoying sunny weather in cold NB
 
Mar 14, 2011
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This summarises the difference between the ethics.

Listening, obeying, understanding, doing, walking is not actions, Jesus is actually doing
it all, we are just passive participants.

Now this is obviously not true. Look at one owns experience. You have to put effort
in, let the words and ideas soak through you.

So this must be religious language, talking about justification or something.
But what we are talking about is our walk, the effects of healing, purification, the
renewing of our minds. These things change us.

Paul himself says if we sow the flesh we reap destruction, is we sow to the Spirit
we reap eternal life.

So part of our walk is us. And we are saved so we can walk.

The real question is does this walk effect our status, or threaten our salvation.
It appears that salvation is a promise or hope of the destination of the journey, but
it is not a certainty or guarantee.

Now EG & G7 believe you cannot loose election once received, we would hold you
can. Paul expresses this uncertainty in his letters, suggesting the preaching could
be in vain, even though he knew at one point the audience he is writing to responded
in faith.

But this is too insecure for some, because they want to know, to be safe, to not
have a question over our relationship. Once you have uncertainty, they want to analyse
and setup rules, and make sure they are within them, which is legalism. But it is love that
is our foundation, upon which we are immovable.

But our opponents do not have this foundation or understand its language. Which explains
why they have such insecurity and want to have a doctrine of eternal security.
This explains the difference between the person of which we place our faith in.

Faith in God (he took us to the house)

Faith in self. (I drove myself to the house)


one must ask his or herself.

Am I saved by faith in myself. or faith in God?
 
Feb 24, 2015
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The real difference between us is a new believer is just that, a potential.
A mature child of God has arrived in the Kingdom.

Now we talk from our own personal experience of faith and life, reflected through
scripture. The more I read and dwell in the word, the more I see Paul struggling with
the same issues, and people we have here in cc.

Now emotionally I cannot teach anyone anything, you have to go there, and feel
it. It is one area where you discover who you are on the inside, and no one can
tell you what that is, you alone experience it.

It is why love is not just a word, it is a whole life experience. We know when someone
else is experiencing it, because you click. And much of this theology is actually going
back to our emotional histories, and how today we see this working out.

So I understand the limitations, but God bless you, that you desire to serve the King,
may you find blessing, love and truth through your service, in whatever form it takes.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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The real difference between us is a new believer is just that, a potential.
A mature child of God has arrived in the Kingdom..
A new believer in Christ is just as much in the kingdom as the mature believer, The Mature believer just knows more about what the kingdom is, and is leading others. THATS ALL..

Both would be headed to hell apart from the cross of Christ and his Grace.

The difference between a non believer, and one who has true faith, yet is still a "babe in christ"?

One will make it to heaven, the other is still condemned. and lest he repent, will never make it to heave.
 
L

LaurenTM

Guest
The real difference between us is a new believer is just that, a potential.
A mature child of God has arrived in the Kingdom.

a new believer is a potential

a mature believer has arrived in the kingdom

Reading Aesop's fables again are we?

doesn't matter if you accepted Christ .0000005 seconds ago or 25 years ago...you are still in the kingdom

closing the door on your strange little kingdom...I've seen enough...again
 
L

LaurenTM

Guest
yeah I think we cross posted there EG...LOL!

now he's got it in stereo...not that it will make any difference ...
 
Mar 14, 2011
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yeah I think we cross posted there EG...LOL!

now he's got it in stereo...not that it will make any difference ...
one has to first open eyes to see before they can hear..

otherwise, in stereo or mono, it is all the same noise. which they can not comprehend