Not By Works
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E
I think this is dangerous, It says God gave a gift based on a persons standing or sitting (status),
The fact is, as Paul states, ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT. so we are all in the same boat. When God looks at us, there are no people standing or sitting, we are all in the same boat. So he either
1. Gives it to all of us
2. Rejects to give it to anyone
3. Offers it to everyone, and not force anyone to take it, The ones who receive it based on FAITH in HIS WORK, are the ones who RECEIVE IT.
Scripture answers this question of which one God chose to do.
John 1: 12 But as many as have RECIEVED him, to THEM he gave the power or right to become SONS OF GOD.
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This summarises the difference between the ethics.
Listening, obeying, understanding, doing, walking is not actions, Jesus is actually doing
it all, we are just passive participants.
Now this is obviously not true. Look at one owns experience. You have to put effort
in, let the words and ideas soak through you.
So this must be religious language, talking about justification or something.
But what we are talking about is our walk, the effects of healing, purification, the
renewing of our minds. These things change us.
Paul himself says if we sow the flesh we reap destruction, is we sow to the Spirit
we reap eternal life.
So part of our walk is us. And we are saved so we can walk.
The real question is does this walk effect our status, or threaten our salvation.
It appears that salvation is a promise or hope of the destination of the journey, but
it is not a certainty or guarantee.
Now EG & G7 believe you cannot loose election once received, we would hold you
can. Paul expresses this uncertainty in his letters, suggesting the preaching could
be in vain, even though he knew at one point the audience he is writing to responded
in faith.
But this is too insecure for some, because they want to know, to be safe, to not
have a question over our relationship. Once you have uncertainty, they want to analyse
and setup rules, and make sure they are within them, which is legalism. But it is love that
is our foundation, upon which we are immovable.
But our opponents do not have this foundation or understand its language. Which explains
why they have such insecurity and want to have a doctrine of eternal security.
Listening, obeying, understanding, doing, walking is not actions, Jesus is actually doing
it all, we are just passive participants.
Now this is obviously not true. Look at one owns experience. You have to put effort
in, let the words and ideas soak through you.
So this must be religious language, talking about justification or something.
But what we are talking about is our walk, the effects of healing, purification, the
renewing of our minds. These things change us.
Paul himself says if we sow the flesh we reap destruction, is we sow to the Spirit
we reap eternal life.
So part of our walk is us. And we are saved so we can walk.
The real question is does this walk effect our status, or threaten our salvation.
It appears that salvation is a promise or hope of the destination of the journey, but
it is not a certainty or guarantee.
Now EG & G7 believe you cannot loose election once received, we would hold you
can. Paul expresses this uncertainty in his letters, suggesting the preaching could
be in vain, even though he knew at one point the audience he is writing to responded
in faith.
But this is too insecure for some, because they want to know, to be safe, to not
have a question over our relationship. Once you have uncertainty, they want to analyse
and setup rules, and make sure they are within them, which is legalism. But it is love that
is our foundation, upon which we are immovable.
But our opponents do not have this foundation or understand its language. Which explains
why they have such insecurity and want to have a doctrine of eternal security.
Demonstrate, show, prove.. all words.. but I'm closed minded.
.
.
L
so, we need to be careful here and not lump everything together Including not lumping all works into the "filthy rags" category.
all OUR righteousness...now that is clear....OUR righteousness...we are not nor ever can be righteous, yet many Christians seem to either forget that or never really let it sink in We are made righteous...justified...then continually undergoing sanctification. That justification and sanctification comes from and is done by God.
what I quoted is not speaking of works...but rather righteousness...I hope you see that I actually don't know what you're referring to when you talk about quoting something. Sure hope it's not that Isaiah "filthy rags" verse. Too often misquoted.
the main contention with regards to works in this thread, is the salvation equals grace PLUS works or begin with grace and stay save with works It's important that people don't think that they can work their way to heaven. Salvation is a gift. It's not earned(Eph 2:8-9). At the same time, charity/works/fruits can't be disregarded as junk/worthless. God wants us to be fruitful and do His will(Eph 2:10).
A balance is needed to discourage trying to earning salvation(which is not possible) while, at the same time, encouraging and giving value and dignity to works prepared in advance for the Christian to do(which are cherished and desired by God).
all OUR righteousness...now that is clear....OUR righteousness...we are not nor ever can be righteous, yet many Christians seem to either forget that or never really let it sink in We are made righteous...justified...then continually undergoing sanctification. That justification and sanctification comes from and is done by God.
what I quoted is not speaking of works...but rather righteousness...I hope you see that I actually don't know what you're referring to when you talk about quoting something. Sure hope it's not that Isaiah "filthy rags" verse. Too often misquoted.
the main contention with regards to works in this thread, is the salvation equals grace PLUS works or begin with grace and stay save with works It's important that people don't think that they can work their way to heaven. Salvation is a gift. It's not earned(Eph 2:8-9). At the same time, charity/works/fruits can't be disregarded as junk/worthless. God wants us to be fruitful and do His will(Eph 2:10).
A balance is needed to discourage trying to earning salvation(which is not possible) while, at the same time, encouraging and giving value and dignity to works prepared in advance for the Christian to do(which are cherished and desired by God).
I am not sure what you are trying to say
the bottom line is that we do not have righteousness
our works do not have righteousness
however, through the Holy Spirit we do works that are righteous in God's sight
works stemming from ourselves are not righteous
so like I said, I don't know if you are finding something you disagree with in that or what
so...dunno what else to say
would anyone discourage works of any kind if they are 'good'?
probably not...however not all works are inspired by God
again, dunno what you are trying to state
no one has negated works per se...it is the working for or keeping of salvation that is not biblical
The real difference between us is a new believer is just that, a potential.
A mature child of God has arrived in the Kingdom.
Now we talk from our own personal experience of faith and life, reflected through
scripture. The more I read and dwell in the word, the more I see Paul struggling with
the same issues, and people we have here in cc.
Now emotionally I cannot teach anyone anything, you have to go there, and feel
it. It is one area where you discover who you are on the inside, and no one can
tell you what that is, you alone experience it.
It is why love is not just a word, it is a whole life experience. We know when someone
else is experiencing it, because you click. And much of this theology is actually going
back to our emotional histories, and how today we see this working out.
So I understand the limitations, but God bless you, that you desire to serve the King,
may you find blessing, love and truth through your service, in whatever form it takes.
A mature child of God has arrived in the Kingdom.
Now we talk from our own personal experience of faith and life, reflected through
scripture. The more I read and dwell in the word, the more I see Paul struggling with
the same issues, and people we have here in cc.
Now emotionally I cannot teach anyone anything, you have to go there, and feel
it. It is one area where you discover who you are on the inside, and no one can
tell you what that is, you alone experience it.
It is why love is not just a word, it is a whole life experience. We know when someone
else is experiencing it, because you click. And much of this theology is actually going
back to our emotional histories, and how today we see this working out.
So I understand the limitations, but God bless you, that you desire to serve the King,
may you find blessing, love and truth through your service, in whatever form it takes.
E
A new believer in Christ is just as much in the kingdom as the mature believer, The Mature believer just knows more about what the kingdom is, and is leading others. THATS ALL..
Both would be headed to hell apart from the cross of Christ and his Grace.
The difference between a non believer, and one who has true faith, yet is still a "babe in christ"?
One will make it to heaven, the other is still condemned. and lest he repent, will never make it to heave.
Both would be headed to hell apart from the cross of Christ and his Grace.
The difference between a non believer, and one who has true faith, yet is still a "babe in christ"?
One will make it to heaven, the other is still condemned. and lest he repent, will never make it to heave.