Not By Works

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Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
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Yes I agree.

We do good works. :)

We do them because He designed us. He created the works for us. And we get to walk in them.

In short: I believe we do works because we are saved not so we can be saved.

And I'm also not trying to stay saved Scripture says my love is directly connected to how much I understand His forgiveness. And how much I understand His love for me.

Luke 7:47
Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little.”

Hi Cee,

I used to teach kids.
First you have to teach them what sin is.
Some believe they've never sinned.

You do this by teaching them the 10 Commandments.
Kind of like putting them UNDER the Law.
It truly is a tutor!

THEN, when they understand about sin and serving God (the first 4)
and serving man (the next 6) you're ready to deliver the shock...

Mathew 22:36-40
Mathew 22:37, 39

Love God, love your neighbor AS YOURSELF.

If you don't love God, you cannot do anything to please Him. (getting saved)
You must love YOURSELF or you cannot love anyone else. (self-respect)
Love your neighbor. (love covers a multitude of sin)

I'd explain how with these TWO commandments of Jesus, ALL TEN WERE COVERED and I'd show how.

Some were stunned. I always loved this part !!

So the adult question here is:

Is loving our neighbor a work?

I think so. Does it cause us to do good for them? Yes. Is doing good a work? Yes. Jesus said we are to do good deeds.

So, I fail to see the problem with saying we are to do good works.
It's what we're saved for.
It's what Jesus COMMANDED.
We MUST do them---it's NOT A CHOICE.

I think you agree.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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she also made her heart pure and departed from iniquity....
She did, or God did? I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you. Those are God's words... Here is the greater context:

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.…


 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
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I love this part:

"I will cause you"...

By freeing us from our heart of stone, we are free to follow Him.

This is how He causes us to follow His perfect ways.

Because if we knew better, we'd desire what He desires for us and through us.

She did, or God did? I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you. Those are God's words... Here is the greater context:

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.…


 
Apr 30, 2016
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Hi Francine,
About loosing salvation, Matthew 24:48, reference is in the time of trouble prophesied for the end.
There are others, also having to do with the sin that can't be forgiven. The Holy Spirit will never leave us and for that reason many Christians think they will never reject Him. It's good to question these things. 6 years ago the Lord told me: It would be better for you not to have been born than to return to your vomit. A reference of this is 2 Peter 2:22, all the 2's like divided between 2 opinions. We are not saved by our understanding and need to get that straight, not to slander over differences of understanding; not addressing you on this, have not read of you doing this, but of others slandering you, having taken offence at your comments, this is for their sake. I had these arguments years ago and have not changed my view, also the Lord warned me o the danger of taking thins in my hands again. Some are confident they will not lose salvation for good reasons, they come to the Lord for help in trouble and in the end we are kept by the power of God. I cheer you on don't take offence.
Hi Stillness

I'm not a gnostic! I don't believe knowledge saves and I don't believe doctrine saves.

I do find a problem with ALL of what Calvin taught. Many that do not like his other doctrine DO like OSAS, or eternal security, or the preservation of the saints. I find this to be a very dangerous teaching.

I know that those here are not saying this... but many could come to the conclusion that since they are saved FOREVER, just because they "accepted Jesus" as their Savior, could now go through life secure, when, in reality, they are not.

Everyone likes Jesus to be their Savior, but not everyone likes Him to be their Lord.
He is both.

If He is to be our Lord, and we are to be His disciples, then we are TO DO what HE COMMANDED.

If we don't, the N.T. is full of what will happen.
First of all we need to be saved. We need to have a conscious knowledge of God.
An atheist cannot go to be with a being he does not believe even exists.

So, the bible is always talking to Christians.
James said that a faith without works is a dead faith. Dead means nothing, it doesn't exist.

So, yes, it's good to talk about these things and maybe come to the conclusion where it's possible to say that, Yes, works DO keep us saved because we're following the commands of our Savior and Lord.

(instead of belittling works)

Thanks for the post.
It was nice to read.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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Joh 6:40 This is my Father's will: That everyone who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him to life on the last day."
You forgot to explain what believe means.
This was one of the conditions...

IF WE BELIEVE IN HIM,

It means (according to G4100, strong's which YOU posted) that we will trust Him and DO WHAT HE ASKS US.

Believe means that we trust the person enough to do as HE DOES, to follow in HIS LEAD, and to do what He commands us.

THIS IS WHAT BELIEVE MEANS.
This is what it means to be a disciple.

So yes, you didn't post John 6:29 but 6:40 is the same concept!

You can't get away from works Stone.

JESUS NEVER SAID Just accept me (or "believe" in Me) and all will be OK.

Jesus always connected works with believing or accepting Him.

I posted verses with many commandments way back.
Someone posted a whole list of things Jesus said to do.

I don't copy and paste like some do, so I'm not going to list this stuff again.
Just read Mathew 5 to 7 and 25 and you'll get plenty on works.

Jesus said that those who do not produce fruit will be cut off and burned.
HE said this, NOT ME.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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I don't believe the bible teaches that some believers don't live a fruitful life. In fact it teaches just the opposite. And that's what most in this thread believe so I'm not saying anything that others haven't already said.

It's actually been stressed by some that God does all the work in us which I agree, just not in the way it's presented.

God has transformed us and made us a new creation at birth. I'm a brand new creation and God is at work in me. I can only go forward, there's no going backward. If I'm a new creation in Christ and God is at work in me to will and to do His good pleasure, if the Christians has nothing to show as fruit of repentance, I can only conclude that the Spirit does not dwell in them.

If God is at work and there's no evidence of this in the believer, either God is impotent or the person isn't born again. I don't see a third option.

There will be fruit. There has to be or God is not in that person.
Desertsrose,

I would go a step further and say that it IS we who are DOING the work.
It is made possible with the strength of the Holy Spirit.
And we are NOT doing it to boast, as some here say.

Why do I say this?

If we say that God is actually doing the work, there are two problems:

1. The theology of cooperation falls apart. This would be the second part of salvation, or sanctification.

The first part is salvation. A work done totally by God. We can do nothing to save ourselves. Our works are as filthy rags to God and they cannot save us.

However, once we are saved, we must cooperate with God for the sanctification process. God will not do all the work for us...
We must cooperate with Him and move our own hands and feet, as we should WANT to do at that point. If we don't, I agree with you --- there's something wrong.


2. If we attribute EVERYTHING to God...If we say that HE DOES everything,
doesn't that make HIM responsible when we sin?

We must accept our own responsibility in the salvation process.

Jesus said He would send us a helper --- not a do it all for us.


John 14:16 New American Standard Bible
"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;


Let's also look at:



John 14:26

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.


We do need to ask ourselves...
What will the Holy Spirit TEACH us?
Of what will He remind us that Jesus TOLD us?
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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Why don't you all leave your Luther and Calvin and whoever else it is you are of at the door and come in seeking with your heart.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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Look at 1 Corinthians. There was infighting and factions, solicitations with prostitutes, lawsuits against one another and even incest. All of the behaviour was the very definition of not just fruitlessness in the Spirit, but rife with the works of the flesh instead. Their behaviour didn't at all reflect the presence of the Holy Spirit, yet Paul in verse 2 of the first chapter says of them:

"To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours."

They were believers in disobedience. That's not to say they didn't suffer any ills from their sin, as Paul writes concerning the consequences of their sins in 1 Corinthians 11:30:

"For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep".

We do not save ourselves, lest we boast. We become children of the living God through faith in Christ's work, and not our own work. However, like children who disobey their father, we will be disciplined if we sin, even to death (sleep). There are those who might say that believing in true grace and not works will bring complacency to a believer's life, but 1 Corinthians clearly teaches the opposite.
I REST MY CASE.


THIS is what easy believism leads to.
Was going to post scripture about how the above mentioned persons ARE NOT GOING TO HEAVEN.
But I won't.

The post speaks for itself.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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The longest posts are generally the worst theologically speaking, so I shortened the lengthy long drawn out error to this below:
(v1)
* The Gospel was preached to the people in the Wilderness as well as us. The Word did not profit those in the wilderness because of their unbeliefit (v2)
Yep, distinguishing between those truly converted, and those who are not. "They" didn't enter in because they were unbelievers. Faith is the gift of God, by the way.
 
Mar 7, 2016
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The longest posts are generally the worst theologically speaking, so I shortened the lengthy long drawn out error to this below:


Yep, distinguishing between those truly converted, and those who are not. "They" didn't enter in because they were unbelievers. Faith is the gift of God, by the way.
faith comes from hearing the word... faith starts with the individual and i will not call them a true believer at this stage. faith is only as Good as to how much the believer understands the word..


For instance this verse
Romans 12:19King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Jesus christ is talking to his beloved those born of the first fruits The gift from the father the seed of faith he plants when you seek.

Jesus here is saying watch you dont seek revenge for yourself coz why ? coz revenge can make you bitter or hateful..

So obviusly Jesus is saying here to his believers and future believers that your faith must not go this way.....

meaning what exactly ?... i wreckon it means that Jesus is saying that works of your faith must come from you,,, and you must decide for your self what action to take because you have free will...

So Jesus will say why didnt you seek me when you where angry,

so clearly Jesus is saying here im not going to do the work you require unless you ask me..
 
Mar 7, 2016
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Why is it so many rich people in this world help the poor and needy ? is it because the laws are written in there heads ? and they seeked ? or is it because they decided for them selves ?...

Now some may have decided what action was appropiate for them selves coz now they have grown and had confidence in there actions coz of approvals and favor from God that they knew they would be in favor from God by there actions,,, and so at the end of the day they boasted in there ability to carry out the lords works by them selves..


Other might try to follow this but get it wrong coz they havent grown in certain areas..

so is it always best to check first and have that open level head that clarification is a works ?
 
Mar 7, 2016
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Its not over untill the sun goes boom or we destroy our selfs.. and even then it might not be over,,, as we will all float out to space in the form of almino acids be reborn and the process starts all over again............

untill we crack the fountain of youth and learn how to travel through galaxies and save plannets and possibly create them encluding stars we will be in groundhog day.....
i think the answer is to create are own sun... :) lols
 
Mar 7, 2016
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[video=youtube;WgcovIu3k9o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgcovIu3k9o[/video]
 
Mar 7, 2016
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To those standing aloof, having the gift of discerning minds, and seeing the open nakedness and vanity being propagated herein To ye be be blessed in His knowledge and wisdom always

The use of the word they in many of my writings describes the flesh kings of the earth, of which choose to live by instinct rather than intelligence…

These ministers of dark light preform linguistic tactics in an attempt to control the language, therefore framing the law of Gods’ word in mischief. They hijack the language through double-speak, however can be astutely identified via their own contradictions, (confusion of faces). Their praised PUNDITS and mighty men of renown, (of which are too many to list) are masters of neural-linguistic speech patterns (emotional hypnosis), speaking great swelling words of emptiness, promising others liberty while they themselves are servants of corruption while enticing unstable souls. This is for the purpose of manipulating people through propaganda by shutting down their analytical mind (loss of common reasoning skills), and activating the emotional mind from the bottomless pit of mans imagination. Thus the lust of the flesh prevails, and man creates his own image of Jesus (the image of the beast).

The apostle John calls it the image of the beast because man wants a God that is subservient to his beastly appetites. Remember, animals live by instinct, but man was made in God’s image to rule over his instincts (desires and natural inclinations, Gen 2-9,17) via intelligence. Also know this: sin is 100% unintelligent and goes against the light of conscience that was put in every man/woman…The WORD was the light that lighteth everyman that cometh into the world, John 1-9

Words are a powerful tool, much more so than the physical weapons of war…Knowing this first: the bible is its own dictionary and will define itself apart from the commentaries and wisdom of men, who can only perceive scripture by way of the flesh……Therefore, if one carefully through biblical definitions unravels their play on words they lose their emotional grip and appeal, hence forth undressing their cult like mentality in that their supposed systematic theological beliefs revolve around their own selective word definitions. For example they have their own contrived meaning for the word “perfect”, which is entirely different than the biblical definition.
Biblical perfection is moral uprightness, and maturity having a heart that is pure towards God. It doesn’t mean to be as perfect as God, as they would mischievously make you think. Therefore these flesh-kings hijack the word “perfect” and attribute unbiblical and foreign concepts to it. Many of these taken for granted concepts were birthed in the mind of Plato, and originally brought into the supposed church by Ambrose/Augustine/Jerome and magnified by the likes of Luther/Calvin. Of whom were both die hard pupils of Augustine and Plato. Plato derived much of his beliefs from ancient Hinduism, the gnostic dual nature of dark and light or Yen-Yang for example, immutability and impassibility myths also…Language falsely used carries with it emotional baggage and curses of great measure.

Anyway, they take your emotional attachments to the word “perfect” and then try and use it against you. Again, they hijack words for emotional appeal because they have NO LOGICAL and sound rational arguments when p[resented with the truth in scripture, thus they prey upon your emotions through a closed flesh-based system of supposed logic (Systematic Theology). Therefore measuring themselves among themselves, by themselves for themselves as Paul so rightly said. They have an obsession with idolized persons (mighty men of renown), with TITLES, degrees, awards, flesh-accomplishments, nickles-numbers-noses, manufacturing supposed strength in numbers coupled with most every form of humanism disguising itself to be the gospel, therefore forming a seductive entrenchment upon souls (beguiling unstable souls, as the apostle Peter said). This demagoguery ware as they glorify the religious GIANTS in the earth, exalting these mighty men of renown and their rhetorical works. There are not biblical theologians, nor ministers of the gospel, but like there cohorts Augustine, Luther, Calvin and the plethora of others, are rhetoricians and masters of witchcraft who theology should have been thrown on the trash heap of history centuries ago. In doing so, they craft language together to achieve an emotional effect upon the lustful who heap upon themselves teachers having itching ears, producing a cognitive dissident effect upon the gullible at heart, therefore the truth becomes a stumbling block of offense in the broad path to destruction.

Being maters of double-speak, they create euphemisms, such as “self-righteousness, and no one can be perfect” meaning if you seek to obey God your now self-righteous and trying to save yourself. And of course the infamous “Not of works” pablem, meaning if you do anything required of God in regards to obedience to the truth in working out your own salvation, then it’s a works based salvation and the worst sin of all.

However, there is hope, in that once you break and decipher their code, you can easily expose their nakedness in light of the scriptures rightly divided. In doing so, all they have left is fig-leaves to cover their sin before God. Sadly they made Jesus into a covering of fig leaves to justify on going disobedience, therefore will argue in favor of sin at every opportunity.
Solomon said in the proverbs; that he who seeks to cover his sin shall not prosper, but whosoever confesseth and forsakes his sin shall find mercy. It’s always repentance and coming clean with God, THEN God answers with the tongue of mercy and forgiveness. This consistent pattern of reconciliation is seen from Genesis to Revelation. Praise God from whom all blessings flow..

In closing; you can get the gest of things in that they have redefined faith, grace, love, sin, perfection, holiness, righteousness, salvation, etc. for the purpose of fulfilling fleshly lusts, and to gather tares to be heaped up in their Institutional Tare Barns that dispense the mark of the beast 24/7 upon the beguiled multitudes……

Peace be with you
even the sinners have to be catered for untill they come to repentance and our ministers have to cater for gays ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,you would do well to remember this.. but should we allow trans genders in the marines or navy seals
 
Mar 7, 2016
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Yes Fran,there is a whole lot of freedom in being a nobody in this world, for all we have to boast in Jesus and His example of obedience unto us, and that ain't a total loss is it?.. be blessed always
no thats the enemy talking coz you are a somebody to God.. from the least to the greatest..
 
Mar 7, 2016
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Please note what is said above...

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.


BELIEVE is Present Tense.

IOW, just in case there's any doubt...
It means you have to be in a present believing state WHEN YOU DIE.
i think most would die with dignity but what about those poor souls who die afflicted ?