Not By Works

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Mar 7, 2016
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Bill,

You say this:

To say just believe and all is ok and nothing is required to me is not right.

Well, what's the difference between this and what I've been saying all along and being called names from persons who claim to be Christian?

If someone says that WORKS DO NOT KEEP SAVED, it must mean that they believe in doing NOTHING. If this is NOT what they mean, they shouldn't say this. We are to keep away from even the APPEARANCE of evil. It is evil to say that Jesus said we are to do nothing when anyone who has read the N.T. can plainly see that this is not true.

As far as people being not worthy?
If they're Christian?

God does not call the qualified
He qualifies the called.

Like that?

How about that we are all worthy?
How about If God Is For You Who Can Be Against You

and others. I've been witnessing for many a year.
God ranks us all from the least to the greatest.. nor gentile nor jew god makes no distiction.. what he does like to see is fruits..:)
 
Mar 7, 2016
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Have you read his other threads? Are you sure?
lol what can i say im a whacky scientist looking to find out how God created our world...its ok stating god created the earth in seven days,,,,, but when you read on we get told one day is like a thousand years to the lord...

Now im aloud to speculate when we have metorites landing from outer space with almino acids in them.. do you know what almino acids are ?

they are the building blocks for life.
 
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willybob

Guest
It's good not to count the Fruits of the Spirit as Works.

But just before Galatians 5:22, Paul is talking about what NOT to do. These are the deeds of the flesh:
The desire of the flesh is set AGAINST the desire of the spirit, the are in opposition to each other --- that you may NOT DO the things that you please.
Galatians 5:17

The deeds of the flesh are:
immorality
impurity
sensuality
idolatry
sorcery
enmites (hate)
strife
jealousy
anger (outbursts)
disputes
dissentions
factions
envying
drunkenness
carousing

Paul says that those who practice these things WILL NOT inherit the kingdome of God. And He's speaking to CHRISTIANS!
PAUL is talking about works --- which ones NOT to do.

Then he goes on to talk about what we SHOULD DO:

The FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT IS:
Love
joy
peace
patience
kindness
goodness
faithfulness
gentleness
self-control

Galatians 5:22-24


"If we LIVE by the spirit, let us also WALK by the spirit"
Galatians 5:25

Take a look at all the fruit... Those are all "works" that we do.
Walking by the spirit means that our INNER LIFE will be demonstrated OUTWARDLY.

Otherwise, what's the use of having the gift???

If you study the N.T. properly and with no pre-conceived notions, you find that works is all over the place.

In Galatians 3 Paul is speaking about how we are no longer slaves to the Law, but are children of God.
Paul, does, however, go on to say that we are to be as God would want us to be.
He exhorts the believers to act accordingly.
He NEVER says that FAITH ALONE is necessary.
Even Paul tells us that we must WALK as we believe.
THIS is works. DOING what God would want us to do.

It's an easy concept once you get over the terrible "works" word.
very good and truthful Fran....I don't think most understand that there is no chastisement for willful rebellion and partaking of the sins unto death, just as there was no day of atonement for such rebellious sins in the OT..there is only death for such sins if not repented of, for it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God....Chastisement/teaching is for the obedient and pure of heart like Job for sins of ignorance while growing in the faith and being tested by God, not for the wilful rebellious who continue in sins unto death, but only a bitter repentance in a season of godly sorrow can help them...I enjoy your contending for the faith once delivered to the saints, be blessed always...
 
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willybob

Guest
She did, or God did? I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you. Those are God's words... Here is the greater context:

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.…


God only cleanses those that come clean with Him in repentance and turn from iniquity, He then extends the influencing power of His Spirit (grace) to live godly soberly and righteously in this present world. He doesn't give a new heart to any who are in the wilful sins of rebellion (bible 101).......be blessed
 
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willybob

Guest
lol what can i say im a whacky scientist looking to find out how God created our world...its ok stating god created the earth in seven days,,,,, but when you read on we get told one day is like a thousand years to the lord...

Now im aloud to speculate when we have metorites landing from outer space with almino acids in them.. do you know what almino acids are ?

they are the building blocks for life.
Greetings Jimbo......The phrase a day is as a thousand years with the Lord describes His patience, longsuffering, and desire that none should perish, but that all should come to repentance and live....Peter was not speaking in terms of a thousand year days....the OT is clear on three occasions by Moses that God created all things in 6 days......be blessed
 
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willybob

Guest
the bible says Jesus learned obedience (chastisement) by much suffering.....He was under the authority of His earthly parents and had to grow up and learn things and suffer like all men/women do, even to the age of accountability, however He never sinned or was rebellious towards His earthly parents, mankind, or His heavenly Father........be blessed
 
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willybob

Guest
You forgot to explain what believe means.
This was one of the conditions...

IF WE BELIEVE IN HIM,

It means (according to G4100, strong's which YOU posted) that we will trust Him and DO WHAT HE ASKS US.

Believe means that we trust the person enough to do as HE DOES, to follow in HIS LEAD, and to do what He commands us.

THIS IS WHAT BELIEVE MEANS.
This is what it means to be a disciple.

So yes, you didn't post John 6:29 but 6:40 is the same concept!

You can't get away from works Stone.

JESUS NEVER SAID Just accept me (or "believe" in Me) and all will be OK.

Jesus always connected works with believing or accepting Him.

I posted verses with many commandments way back.
Someone posted a whole list of things Jesus said to do.

I don't copy and paste like some do, so I'm not going to list this stuff again.
Just read Mathew 5 to 7 and 25 and you'll get plenty on works.

Jesus said that those who do not produce fruit will be cut off and burned.
HE said this, NOT ME.
Amen Fran! and praise God from whom all blessing flow.....
 
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willybob

Guest
Desertsrose,

I would go a step further and say that it IS we who are DOING the work.
It is made possible with the strength of the Holy Spirit.
And we are NOT doing it to boast, as some here say.

Why do I say this?

If we say that God is actually doing the work, there are two problems:

1. The theology of cooperation falls apart. This would be the second part of salvation, or sanctification.

The first part is salvation. A work done totally by God. We can do nothing to save ourselves. Our works are as filthy rags to God and they cannot save us.

However, once we are saved, we must cooperate with God for the sanctification process. God will not do all the work for us...
We must cooperate with Him and move our own hands and feet, as we should WANT to do at that point. If we don't, I agree with you --- there's something wrong.


2. If we attribute EVERYTHING to God...If we say that HE DOES everything,
doesn't that make HIM responsible when we sin?

We must accept our own responsibility in the salvation process.

Jesus said He would send us a helper --- not a do it all for us.


John 14:16 New American Standard Bible
"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;


Let's also look at:



John 14:26

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.


We do need to ask ourselves...
What will the Holy Spirit TEACH us?
Of what will He remind us that Jesus TOLD us?
Quite true again Fran......I don't know anyone who is obedient and faithful from heart purity going around boasting is such things....But rather its a starw-man of accusation invented by the disobedient at heart, for the purpose of justifying iniquity to bring others down to their level....Scripture calls the obedient from heart purity "the worthy" not "the boasters"........Mostly when Paul spoke of boasting in works, he was referencing the Jews that were boasting in the Talmud and ceremonial ordnances of the OT, along with their genealogy for salvation.....be blessed always
 
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willybob

Guest
Jesus was mad at the Pharisees because they were keeping people far from God by not teaching them correctly.

Much as what YOU do by telling everybody LIES and then telling those that know the truth that they're going to hell.
WHO is the pharisee here??
Yes the Pharisees were servants of sin and still thinking that they were saved and not in the bondage of sin, much the same as Christianity...
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Seems you are still trying to justify your interpretation of 2 scriptures over the 200+ to hold on to your man made traditions. If we are following the teachings and traditions of man of the Word of God we are not following Jesus.
I sincerely hope and pray that you find your way out of bondage to legalism in your false religion, just like brother Anderson did.

The Truth about the Seventh-day Adventist Church

Bible Truth Versus Adventist Truth - Dangers of Seventh-day Adventism

Bible Truth Versus Adventist Truth - Mark of the Beast
 
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willybob

Guest
I love this part:

"I will cause you"...

By freeing us from our heart of stone, we are free to follow Him.

This is how He causes us to follow His perfect ways.

Because if we knew better, we'd desire what He desires for us and through us.
"cause" is by way of the influencing power of the Holy Spirit upon the heart (grace) unto the repented. It has nothing to do with force, for God CANNOT CIRCUMVENT mans freewill to chose whom he will serve, sin unto death, or righteousness unto life. However He has endowed all men/women with the natural light of conscience to seek Him diligently that He may be found and reward those that do........Be blessed
 
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willybob

Guest
even the sinners have to be catered for untill they come to repentance and our ministers have to cater for gays ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,you would do well to remember this.. but should we allow trans genders in the marines or navy seals
we are to be at peace with all men/women, and not to return evil for evil under any circumstances, completely patient and non violent to all men/women,however God does not cater to sinners in wilful rebellion, and neither does His ecclesia, but rather rebukes them and commands them to repent, Acts 17-30...............be blessed
 
Jun 5, 2017
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I sincerely hope and pray that you find your way out of bondage to legalism in your false religion, just like brother Anderson did.

I am free in Jesus. He saves me from my Sins because of the Faith I have in His Words alone. I need no man to tell me that God loves me and I love him. I follow Him because I love Him and am not in bondage to any man or false religion. I pray that you may read God's Word for yourself and stop trusting in the teachings and traditions of man over the Word of God. I believe God's Word over the traditions of Man and I love God's Word how about you?

Isa 55:6-7,
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

 
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Nov 22, 2015
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An interesting Scripture about works.

Romans 9:30
What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33as it is written,
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness were made righteous.
Jews who pursued righteousness were not.

But why? Because they didn't pursue it by faith, but as if it were by works.

Let's not also fall in the same error to think our works can replace His work.

Well said!

That is the whole crux behind the "good works" debates. Everyone knows that the fruit of an exchanged heart will manifest in some form as goodness being expressed to others.

Without knowing the truth that good works do not save us - that Jesus and what he has already done saves us - then we have just created a religion and have replaced Christ Himself for "what we do or don't do" which is what the law of Moses was all about for obtaining salvation.

All religions - including the religion of Christianity ( as there is a religion like this that tries to mimic the life of Christ ) - are really manifesting that they are eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which has been set lose in this earth by Adam's transgression.

They are basing their life on what they do or don't do. They are attempting to establish their own righteousness by what they do or don't do. Good works are an example of this.

We see the "descriptions" in the words and actions of Jesus and in the epistles of what the true Christian life looks like when Christ's life and His fruit are being manifested. The religion of Christianity then takes these "descriptions" and tries to "dictate" to the believers the life of Christ or the fruit of the Spirit into being.

In essence they are trying to mimic or duplicate the life and fruit of Christ and at the same time "demanding" that others do the same thing or else they are not saved. The true Christian life is Christ Himself joined as one spirit with us manifesting His love, His grace, His life in and through us. It is His fruit - without Him we can do nothing.

All works-based - works-righteousness belief systems ( including the religion of Christianity ) have this as their core essence and it really nullifies the true grace of God from operating in our lives like it should.

This is the "why" behind when people say we must do "good works". That is what the fruit brings behind the work-for-salvation mindset and to maintain and create righteousness.

The reality is - as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror - we are transformed by the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ will manifest itself in the doing of good works as the fruit of being in union with Him.

We do good works because it is a fruit of being in union with Christ - not to keep ourselves saved.

Preach and teach the love and grace of God in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and Christians will have the proper nutrients to walk out what already is within them - which is Christ in us - the hope of glory.
 
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willybob

Guest
Seems you are still trying to justify your interpretation of 2 scriptures over the 200+ to hold on to your man made traditions. Ok let’s have a look at what you’re saying above again. I think you missed the point from a section of an earlier post I sent to you or you did not read it. Let’s go through it again for those that may have missed it?

GEN 2
1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Scripture context points:

· God finished all the work of creation on the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day of the week (v1)
· God ended His Work on the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day of the creation week and rested from all His work of creation, it was completed no more work required (v2)

· God blessed the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day and set it apart as a holy day as a memorial of creation

Critical questions and answers:

When was God’s 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath made, before the fall of mankind or after the fall of mankind?
It was made BEFORE the fall of mankind at the end of the creation week on the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day!

Was God’s work of creation a FINISHED WORK or an UNFUNISHED WORK?
The 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath was the result of the FINISHED AND COMPLETED WORK of creation!

When were God’s Laws and the laws of Moses given, before the fall of mankind or after the fall of mankind? Obviously AFTER the fall of mankind (Ex 20:1-17, Lev 23:1-44, etc) they were part of God’s plan of salvation.

It has already been shown in previous posts that the plan of salvation was being taught through the Old Testament ceremonial laws of Moses which included all the annual feasts of Lev 23 etc (see scripture proofs in posts Post 22030 with extra links; Post 22032 + Post 22033; and Post 22034) and were pointing to Jesus as our great Passover Lamb and sacrifice for our sins. (e.g. 1Cor 5:7-8) So these laws were given AFTER the fall of mankind to teach us the plan of salvation which at that time was the result of an UNFINISHED WORK because Jesus has not yet come or died for our sins. They were all Shadows and types pointing to their fulfilment in Jesus.

Putting it all together:

How can God’s 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath commandment which is a memorial of the creation week (Ex 20:8-11) be a type or Shadow as you claim in Col 2:16-17 when God’s Word says it is already the result of the FINISHED WORK of the creation week given which was given BEFORE the fall of mankind?

I don’t think anything else needs to be said because this alone shows your interpretation of Col 2:16-17 is a false one. Anyone reading Leviticus chapter 23 can see clearly that it is the ceremonial annual new moon sabbaths connected to feasts days and burnt offerings and mean and drink offerings and Holy days that is being referred to in Col 2:16-17. Especially the fact the verse 14 in talking about ceremonial laws. You are mixed up because you do not know the difference between God’s Law and the laws of Moses. God’s Law (10 commandments) are the foundation of the Old and New covenants and the Judgement to come. They are God’s work and his Word tell us they are forever (Ecc 3:14)


Lets talk about your Hebrews 4 again shall we?

HEB 4

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limited a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Key Scripture points

* Fear that the promise being left us any of us should fall short of entering God’s rest (v1)


* The Gospel was preached to the people in the Wilderness as well as us. The Word did not profit those in the wilderness because of their unbeliefit (v2)
* For we which have believed do enter into His Rest. The people in the wilderness that did not believe God did not enter into His Rest even though works were finished from the foundation of the world (v3)
* Speaking of the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath and the last day of the creation week (Gen 2:1-3) (v4)
* God’s rest (Gen 2:1-3), those that believe enter into God’s 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath rest those that do not believe do not enter into God’s 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath rest (v5-6)
* Harden not your heart in unbelief (v7-8)
* There is a rest for the people of God (v9)
* Those that enter into God’s rest cease from works as God did v10
* We should labour to enter into God’s rest (Gen 2:1-3) faith in God’s Word (rest through believing God) v11
* The Word of God is powerful. v12

Please go back and look at the Greek meaning of the word "rest" used in Heb 4:9 its meaning is resting through keeping of a Sabbath or Sabbath observance. (I have provided Greek links below)


“There remaineth therefore a [Sabbath] rest [SUP]4520[/SUP] to the people of God.” (NAS; Heb 4:9)
The Greek word literally means “Sabbath keeping” or “Sabbath observance.” (links below)
Strong's Concordance 4520
sabbatismos: a sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Short Definition: a Sabbath rest
Definition: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.


Strong's Greek 4520

σαββατισμὸς — 1 Occ.
Hebrews 4:9N-NMS
GRK: ἄρα ἀπολείπεται σαββατισμὸς τῷ λαῷ
NAS: there remains a Sabbath rest for the people
KJV: therefore a rest to the people
INT: Then remains a sabbath rest to the people

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4520: σαββατισμός
σαββατισμός, σαββατισμου, ὁ (σαββατίζω to keep the sabbath); 1. a keeping sabbath. 2. the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians (R. V. sabbath rest): Hebrews 4:9. (Plutarch, de superstit. c. 3; ecclesiastical writings.)

So let’s pull Hebrews 4:1-12 all together?

The context is God’s rest from the week of creation on the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day of the creation week (Heb 4:1-5). Those that did not enter into God’s rest (7th Day Sabbath) did not enter in because of their unbelief and disobedience (sins) to God’s Word. The Gospel was preached unto them but they did not believe it (Heb 4:2). God did not give them His true rest (Heb 4:5-8). This is the same warning for those that disobey Him and do not follow His Word. Only those that believe and obey God’s Word enter into his 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath rest (Heb 4:6, 9, 10-12). So you can see Jesus is not a Sabbath. The Sabbath is the 7th Day of the Week. Jesus is Lord of this Day because he is the creator of this day (Heb 4:4; Mark 2:28-29)




The above is just more of the same that has already been addressed in the previous posts to you with scripture referenced from Post 22030 with extra links; Post 22032 + Post 22033; and Post 22034.

God’s Law (10 commandments) had a similar (not same) role is it did in the Old Testament as it does in the New and that is to (1) point out what sin is and the punishment of sin which is death (Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4). It was never a cure for sin. (2) The laws of Moses however were the prescriptive cure for sin with all the Levitical and ceremonial laws, burnt offerings, annual feast days foretelling the plan of salvation which were connected to Feast days with New Moon sabbaths, food and drink offerings and other Holy days. These where all types pointing to Jesus as described in earlier posts.

Every reference your writer above used as well as your previous posts is in context to (1) burnt offerings; (2) Sabbaths held at the New Moon feasts and at the appointed festivals and (3) food and drink offerings. This is the same reference and context that Col 2:16-17 is also referring. Every one of the scriptures used by the writer all have their context to the annual feast days descibed in Leviticus Chapter 23; Numbers chapters 28 and 29. As mentioned earlier these were all done away at the cross because they were Shadows of an unfinished word that was completed at the death of Jesus (Col 2:16-17).
On the other hand as mentioned earlier the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] commandment only says..

Exo 20:8-11,
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day.

Now please notice some key points;

Where does it say in the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] commandment of God’s Law that we need to do (1) burnt offerings (2) keep the Sabbaths at the New Moon feasts and at the appointed festivals and (3) offer food and drink offerings? It does not because it is God’s Law that points out sin. It is the same Law that we have today and is forever because it was made by God himself and represents the character of God and is the knowledge of good and evil. It shows us what sin is (Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4; Rom 6:23).

Now notice the last part of the commandment in Ex 20:11 this is the reason the commandment was given. (v11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day. This is a reference back to Gen 2:1-3 we touched on earlier. Highlighting that the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath is a memorial of the FINISHED work of creation and if it is a FINISHED work and a memorial of God’s creation that was given BEFORE the FALL of mankind before SIN had entered the world and before the plan of salvation was given to FALLEN man it cannot be a Shadow because it was a part of a finished work before God’s Laws and the plan of salvation was given!

Ok is that all you have got? God's Word is very clear...

Mat 15:3,
Jesus said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mat 15:7-9,
Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draws nigh unto me with their mouth, and honors me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

If we are following the teachings and traditions of man of the Word of God we are not following Jesus.

God bless


Greetings, The Sabbath day was pointing to the Sabbath rest in Christ which is now 24/7 anytime anywhere two or more (the two witnesses) are gathered in His name He is in their mist....when one has ceased from his own works of sin he enters into HIS rest...the literal Sabbath day was among the feast days listed in Lev 23, which were done away with after a more Glorious one has come.....I would suggest using scripture to define scripture rather than James Strong who was part of the Oxford movement in rebellion to God's word........be blessed
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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I am free in Jesus. He saves me from my Sins because of the Faith I have in His Words alone.
Faith in your misinterpretation of His Words cannot save you. Faith in His finished work of redemption can save you (Romans 3:24-26). If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your EXACT answer? Your answer to this question will demonstrate exactly what you are trusting in to receive eternal life.

I need no man to tell me that God loves me and I love him. I follow Him because I love Him and am not in bondage to any man or false religion.
Keep telling yourself that.

I pray that you may read God's Word for yourself and stop trusting in the teachings and traditions of man over the Word of God. I believe God's Word over the traditions of Man and I love God's Word how about you?
I don't trust in traditions of man over the Word of God and I certainly don't trust in the false teachings of the SDA church. I love God and I certainly love His Word, but I don't love it when people twist His Word and pervert the Gospel.

 
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"cause" is by way of the influencing power of the Holy Spirit upon the heart (grace) unto the repented. It has nothing to do with force,
Who said "force?" God works in us to will and do of His good pleasure '' Philippians 2:13. He changes the will, causing us to desire Him and what He works in us.

for God CANNOT CIRCUMVENT mans freewill to chose whom he will serve, sin unto death, or righteousness unto life.
Really, a God who CANNOT eh? What an anemic pathetic god that would be, he'd hardly be god at all!

But this is exactly what God does do to any who are converted, and salvation is not by determinative choice in the first place, it is not based upon decision; John 1:13; Romans 9:11ff; James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:3 &c. Note also Daniel 4:34ff; Proverbs 21:1; Psalm 115:3; Ezra 6:22 &c. Looks like God's Word is contrary to your decisional, determinative salvation on man's part/God CANNOT violate man's will or ways error...

Instead God is Sovereign and your teaching falls short.

However He has endowed all men/women with the natural light of conscience to seek Him diligently that He may be found and reward those that do........Be blessed
So salvation is now a reward, based upon man's effort, not a gift of Grace. LOL!!!!!!!! Goodness sake man...
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by his own flesh and created an Ishmael. He thought he was doing a 'good work" to help the purposes of God.

God had to wait until Abraham and Sarah couldn't do anything in their own self-effort in order to produce the son of the promise and rely on God's life and power to bring about His purposes.

God doesn't recognize the things we do in the flesh. When God spoke to Abraham He said "Take your son, your only son ...".

God doesn't recognize the things of the flesh - even good things. He only sees that which has originated from Him.

Here is a quote about the flesh and "doing good deeds" within themselves from Major Ian Thomas that drives the D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness mindset and those that think good works keep us saved crazy.

To the humble mind we would think - "Yes - Lord without You we can do nothing. You are our life." - but unfortunately some will fight against this because it exposes the flesh to be what it really is.

It's all about the "origin" of these good works and of course none of them keep us saved. That's religious nonsense and just creates a religion.

Quote:

You may have harnessed the energy of the flesh in an otherwise quite genuine desire to honor the Lord Jesus in your life. The flesh, which has its origin in Satan, will go along with you; to survive, it is quite prepared to engage in every form of Christian activity, even though this may seem to honor Christ.

The flesh will sing in the choir, teach Sunday school, preside at a deacons’ meeting, preach from the pulpit, organize an evangelistic crusade, go to Bible college, volunteer for the mission field, and a thousand other things, all of which may in themselves be otherwise legitimate, if only it can keep its neck out of the noose.

The flesh will threaten, shout, strut, domineer, sulk, plot, creep, beg, plead, or sob, whatever the situation may demand in the interests of its own survival. By any and all means it will seek to cause every Christian to live by his own strength instead of by the power and grace of the Lord Jesus, and to conclude that doing so is actually a good thing!

The characteristic of the spiritually immature is that they are unable to discern between good and evil (Hebrews 5:13-14), and the baby Christian, like the foolish Galatians, “having begun in the Spirit” still tries to be “made perfect by the flesh” (Galatians 3:3).

We must be particularly patient with those whose lack of understanding allows a genuine love for the Lord Jesus to be satisfied with, and sometimes to be quite enthusiastic about, Christian activities involving means and methods which are heavily contaminated by the flesh. These are more deserving of instruction than rebuke, for they are still in their spiritual babyhood.

The flesh will seek to produce the most plausible arguments in justification of its own illegitimate activities, even though these activities are only what the Bible calls “dead works” (Hebrews 6:1; 9:14) and not the “good works” which are truly the work of God.

“Good works” are those that have their origin in Jesus Christ, as Christ’s activity is released through your body because you present it to Him as a living sacrifice. You do this only by faith that expresses total dependence, as opposed to Adamic independence."



Major Ian Thomas: The Way Of The Flesh; from The Indwelling Life of Christ
 
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Nov 12, 2015
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An interesting Scripture about works.

Romans 9:30
What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33as it is written,
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness were made righteous.
Jews who pursued righteousness were not.

But why? Because they didn't pursue it by faith, but as if it were by works.

Let's not also fall in the same error to think our works can replace His work.
I would like to hear you and fran discuss this some more. You both seem to understand that it is not easily laid out and that there are parts that cannot be left out or it falls into disrepair! You both are the ones to have the discussion so we can read it, because you seem to be able TO have it without ruining it by fleshly displays and outbursts. I would like to see the two of you discuss this matter unmolested or at least to ignore the molestations and outbursts so we can follow along and ignore them too.
I think it would be a big help.