Not By Works

[MattforJesus]

Where was your faith? If you had true faith you would not have to worry about doing good works, they would be an automatic byproduct. It would be your new natural state as a new creature,

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Tell it to these people,for how did they lack works that Jesus told them to do those works,and they were fallen,and to repent,and the other one their works were not perfect before God,and Jesus told them to repent,and both Churches Jesus said if they do not repent then He would go against them.

And they did have faith,and did repent,and were saved,for they were fallen,and Jesus told them to repent,which means they could get in a right state with Him again.

If it is an automatic response that a person will do works because they are saved,then why the lack of works.

And James would not warn against lacking works if it were not possible that someone might lack works.

In the game of chess if a chess player knows that there is no possible way to win the game,he will not play it out for it will do no good,but a waste of time,and will lay down his king before he is actually checkmated.

You people lay your king down,and quit trying to play it out.

 

[Cee]

Let me say what I'm saying a little more simply.

Peter is talking to saved people, telling them to diligently live like they are saved. He is reminding them, who they are.

And if they don't follow his instruction? He says their knowledge of the Lord will be UNFRUITFUL.

And if their knowledge of the Lord is fruitful there will be an abundant entrance richly supplied. Contrast with Paul saying they will be saved through fire, but scarcely.

Did you notice that this 'doing', this 'diligence' is what confirms one as being called and chosen (vs.10)? That's the point of contention. Works are indeed 'required' in a salvation experience because that is the obligatory mark in the flesh for the one who is in covenant with God.

This is not to be confused with an argument that the diligence to work somehow earns one's salvation. They confirm it. Why? Because that's what the faith that saves all by itself looks like in a person. That's why works have to accompany salvation. If you do not have this mark in the flesh, this circumcision of the putting off of the deeds of the flesh, you are showing yourself to not be in covenant with God. That makes works 'required' in salvation. That's what being in covenant with God through faith apart from your works looks like. That's not a 'works earn salvation' gospel. That's a 'works must confirm your salvation' gospel.

 

[Cee]

Yes, I would say:

Denying Christ is denying Him as Son of God, i.e. never saved.

Being faithless means not living faithful. But He doesn't deny Himself, because He promises on Himself that He would keep us.

Notice in 2 Timothy 2:12-13 that the outcome of denying Christ and being unfaithful are two different things. So we know that denying Christ is one thing, and being unfaithful is another. If we deny Christ he will deny us. If we are unfaithful he won't deny us. It is denying Christ in unbelief that will cause Him to deny you and you be lost. But the struggles and failures of our growing up into Christ, all the while clinging to the blood of Christ to cover those failures, does not result in Christ denying us--we are still saved. Only an outright denial and rejection of Christ can cause Christ to deny us and we lose our salvation.

 

[stonesoffire]

Phart

Question..

Do you see yourself as one with the Lord?

 

[PHart]

Mat 18:6 "If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a large millstone were hung around his neck and he were drowned at the bottom of the sea.

Its a fact that a child that has been sexually abused, is more apt to be promiscuous.

I can't argue with that. Sexual sin is often visited upon the children.

What's interesting is that the stumbling of the little one who believes in Jesus being spoken of, whatever it is specifically, causes them to go to the eternal fire.

 

[willybob]

Any faith that circumvents repentance and the works of obedience continuance is a faith of devils….

 

[PHart]

Any faith that circumvents repentance and obedience continuance is a faith of devils….

...and cannot save.

 

[PHart]

Phart

Question..

Do you see yourself as one with the Lord?

Without doubt, without question.
I am presently believing so I am presently saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB).

 

[Magenta]

I can't argue with that. Sexual sin is often visited upon the children.

What's interesting is that the stumbling of the little one who believes in Jesus being spoken of, whatever it is specifically, causes them to go to the eternal fire.

There go all the pedo priests and popes!

 

[stonesoffire]

I can't argue with that. Sexual sin is often visited upon the children.

What's interesting is that the stumbling of the little one who believes in Jesus being spoken of, whatever it is specifically, causes them to go to the eternal fire.

Causes them to sin....where do you see "go to the eternal fire"?

 

[PHart]

There go all the pedo priests and popes!

So true. Matthew 18:6-9 should have them shaking in their boots.

 

[Magenta]

Causes them to sin....where do you see "go to the eternal fire"?

Jesus said, "It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble."

 

[stonesoffire]

Without doubt, without question.
I am presently believing so I am presently saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB).

Thats not what I asked though. I asked if you see yourself as one with Him? If you do, then how could you be ever lost? A member of His body! Will He cut off His own members?

 

[PHart]

Causes them to sin....where do you see "go to the eternal fire"?

Here is the whole passage:

"6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB)


Paul also speak of this same danger of destroying believers in the building and field of God here:

"16Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are." (1 Corinthians 3:16-17 NASB)

 

[Cee]

If you are only "presently saved", how are you a new creation in Christ?

Do you lose your new creation status if you stop "presently being saved"?

Why does Holy Spirit say He will be with you forever and He's your guarantee of salvation?

Have you not received Him yet?

Without doubt, without question.
I am presently believing so I am presently saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB).

 

[Cee]

Please note they were trying to stop the little children from coming to Jesus.

This lines up with Paul saying stumbling is not coming to Jesus for righteousness, but our own works.

Here is the whole passage:

"6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB)

 

[stonesoffire]

Jesus said, "It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble."

Right Magenta, but that's the perpetrator, not the child. Read Pharts post again. His point was the child would be caused to go into eternal fire.

 

[Magenta]

Right Magenta, but that's the perpetrator, not the child. Read Pharts post again. His point was the child would be caused to go into eternal fire.

I did not read it that way, Stonesoffire...

 

[stonesoffire]

Please note they were trying to stop the little children from coming to Jesus.

This lines up with Paul saying stumbling is not coming to Jesus for righteousness, but our own works.

I don't see that Cee.. where do you see that?

 

[PHart]

Thats not what I asked though. I asked if you see yourself as one with Him? If you do, then how could you be ever lost? A member of His body! Will He cut off His own members?

I am one with Christ through the Holy Spirit, just as my arm is one with my body and has the same spirit in it as in me.

God will not deny someone who believes in him. He will cut off the one who stops believing in him. Paul said that if we deny Christ he will deny us. It is our unfaithfulness in the midst of our trusting in Christ that can not cause Christ to deny us. But unbelief will most certainly cause one to be removed from eternal life.