Not By Works

[JIMBO43]

They do not differentiate between saving grace and the empowering manifold grace of God, that comes after conversion....to them saving grace is all you get and/or need...

where not all chosen which means are saving grace has not grown to enabling grace to do the works of others enough to be chosen for a reason ..maybe you have something there.. my grace was sufficient enough is all that we need.. or how else would you keep a level head when those around you want to stone you to death

 

[stonesoffire]

Believe and faith is the same.

If I BELIEVE that you will drive me to my job...

I have FAITH that you will drive me to my job...

If I BELIEVE in Jesus...
I have FAITH in Jesus...

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Webster Dictionary(4.00 / 1 vote)Rate this definition:

Faith(noun)


belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting solely and implicitly on his authority and veracity; reliance on testimony

Faith(noun)
the assent of the mind to the statement or proposition of another, on the ground of the manifest truth of what he utters; firm and earnest belief, on probable evidence of any kind, especially in regard to important moral truth

Faith(noun)
the belief in the historic truthfulness of the Scripture narrative, and the supernatural origin of its teachings, sometimes called historical and speculative faith

Faith(noun)
the belief in the facts and truth of the Scriptures, with a practical love of them; especially, that confiding and affectionate belief in the person and work of Christ, which affects the character and life, and makes a man a true Christian, -- called a practical, evangelical, or saving faith

Faith(noun)
that which is believed on any subject, whether in science, politics, or religion; especially (Theol.), a system of religious belief of any kind; as, the Jewish or Mohammedan faith; and especially, the system of truth taught by Christ; as, the Christian faith; also, the creed or belief of a Christian society or church

Faith(noun)
fidelity to one's promises, or allegiance to duty, or to a person honored and beloved; loyalty

Faith(noun)
word or honor pledged; promise given; fidelity; as, he violated his faith

Faith(noun)
credibility or truth

Faith
by my faith; in truth; verily

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Webster Dictionary(0.00 / 0 votes)Rate this definition:

Believe(noun)

to exercise belief in; to credit upon the authority or testimony of another; to be persuaded of the truth of, upon evidence furnished by reasons, arguments, and deductions of the mind, or by circumstances other than personal knowledge; to regard or accept as true; to place confidence in; to think; to consider; as, to believe a person, a statement, or a doctrine

Believe(verb)
to have a firm persuasion, esp. of the truths of religion; to have a persuasion approaching to certainty; to exercise belief or faith

Believe(verb)
to think; to suppose



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Webster Dictionary(0.00 / 0 votes)Rate this definition:

Belief(noun)

assent to a proposition or affirmation, or the acceptance of a fact, opinion, or assertion as real or true, without immediate personal knowledge; reliance upon word or testimony; partial or full assurance without positive knowledge or absolute certainty; persuasion; conviction; confidence; as, belief of a witness; the belief of our senses

Belief(noun)
a persuasion of the truths of religion; faith

Belief(noun)
the thing believed; the object of belief

Belief(noun)
a tenet, or the body of tenets, held by the advocates of any class of views; doctrine; creed

Not really the same Fran. Believe is of us. It's our belief which is when we hear the gospel and put our being or as Strongs says, we entrust ourself to the one we've heard about.

Faith is different. It actually is substance in the supernatural. That's why we keep in faith because it's power with God.

 

[JIMBO43]

LOL

You're too intelligent to be here!!
I like to come here and then leave --- so I could be considered intelligent too !!

It's of little use to Exchange ideas, we're each embedded in our own doctrine.
Nothing wrong with that.

What's wrong with it is the REASONS given.
They are non-biblical.
It's necessary to add to, or deduct from, any given verse.
Verses cannot stand on their own when not properly understood.

So, you may say... "Only YOU are right?"

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Only I am right!!
LOL

are you sure there is nothing wrong with being indoctrinated for everyone just thought i would ask a very stupid question lol

 

[Meggido]

The problem is you are saying that all 'shallow believing' is 'not really believing'. 'No root' obviously can't mean 'no root at all' because the plant would not appear at all. The first kind of soil is the soil where there is no root, no believing, not the second soil.

The church can't seem to think in terms of 'weak faith/ strong faith'. It has been taught to only be able to think about faith in an 'either/or' way. But the parable of the sower shows us that there is indeed weak believing, and there is strong believing. Obviously, strong believing can endure. Weak faith may not. It may never grow up to the fourth kind of soil, but if you just look at your own life perhaps you have a testimony of being all four of the soils in a progressive move towards God. I do.

Most of the counter-pointers here do not believe we posses any measure of personal saving faith...they claim that personal saving faith is the faith of Jesus himself and because of that they will never abandon faith and become apostate or otherwise...they then proof text 2 Timothy 2.13 to back up this claim.....this is the true doctrine of demons of eternal security...

 

[sevenseas]

Dude give it up.

This is not true, and your continued attacks are getting out of hand.

We have always maintained there is a difference, In fact a few people tried to show Jimbo that there was a difference

if I call a zebra a giraffe, will that make the zebra a giraffe?

you and dcon telling someone they are attacking does not make it so

this is rhetoric designed to shut the other person down or even better, get them angry so they forget what it is you could not answer

now I don't mean you cannot answer per se, just speaking generally

however, I have been accused of attacking folks in the BDF simply by posting a scripture! really!

half this thread is attack..REAL...attacks on the faith delivered once and for all and that would be because some people want to cut out verses they feel are no longer applicable or they mistakenly believe that that which is perfect has come...actually that would be dcon, but whatever....and then we have another poster who is so far over the edge of reality that posts actual heresy and then when you call him on it, he changes what he said and tells you that you misunderstood (not you at all here but still remains so)

and on and on and on

I'm not clarkina kent nor am I supergirl, but I do have real good comprehension and reading skillz

Megiddo is not attacking you

you can say 101 more times that he is, but it will not make it true

and Fran is not a heretic. you know, a while back she got on my case because she thought I was a member of the charismatic frenzy club, so I ignored her. however, she is intelligent, articulate and funny...we actually share that...and I am not a member of the koo koo kharasmatics who are dealing in demonic deception

so you know, relax a little. some of us here are misunderstood but accusations won't release the little white doves and the ravens are eating the corpses

 

[FranC]

Not one of us has ever said we work for any form of grace.....we don't....

Stop confusing grace and mercy, youa re suggesting they are one of the same and they are not...

When God spared the children in the wilderness and let them die in the wilderness over 40 years he showed his mercy....when he did not kill them outright as he wanted to he showed his grace...

Are you suggesting there is no punishment or judgement for sin under grace?

Sin always has a judgement....we sow what we reap...

DCON loves to say David was forgiven and was saved and had faith and and the Lord showed mercy on him, so the sin was taken care off....He seems to imply by saying those things that David escaped the punishment for his SINs of adultery and murder...but he did not escape judgement or punishment and still paid the price for committing the SINs of adultery and murder....The death of the infant son was the immediate punishment for the sins of the Father....

Ananias & Sapphira died for the sin of lying....

Regarding David, the New Testament goes so far as to say that we are to abstain from even the appearance of sin.
1 Thessalonians 5:22 KJV

This could merit a thread of its own and I don't mean to get into it.
But I DO think that Christians should BEHAVE differently from Others.
If something appears EVIL, maybe we should abstain from it?

So when those here post that all is only belief and it is not important to show any external actiond, or deeds, (since everything is of the heart - and I do not disagree with the heart issue) then what makes us look different from the rest of the world?

Are we Christian or not?
Are we of the Kingdom or not?

I've been trying to say all along that we should be careful what we preach because it could be taken the wrong way.

How we act IS important.
Doing good deeds IS important.
Following Jesus' lead IS being a disciple of His.

 

[stonesoffire]

Not one of us has ever said we work for any form of grace.....we don't....

Stop confusing grace and mercy, youa re suggesting they are one of the same and they are not...

When God spared the children in the wilderness and let them die in the wilderness over 40 years he showed his mercy....when he did not kill them outright as he wanted to he showed his grace...

Are you suggesting there is no punishment or judgement for sin under grace?

Sin always has a judgement....we sow what we reap...

DCON loves to say David was forgiven and was saved and had faith and and the Lord showed mercy on him, so the sin was taken care off....He seems to imply by saying those things that David escaped the punishment for his SINs of adultery and murder...but he did not escape judgement or punishment and still paid the price for committing the SINs of adultery and murder....The death of the infant son was the immediate punishment for the sins of the Father....

Ananias & Sapphira died for the sin of lying....

Hi Meggido

I have two points with your post. If one of us is stubborn while during this period of grace to the body, yes that one will be chastened. Usually it starts with the Word. Then our life may fall apart. Then He hems one in so that the "desire" whatever it may be is completely unreachable...and if not still repenting? That one dies. Or goes home.

Another point. Was it the punishment for lying with Ananias and Sapphira? Or was it because they tempted the Holy Spirit who was present in Peter? And were they actually standing against the authority of Peter?

 

[JIMBO43]

Dude give it up.

This is not true, and your continued attacks are getting out of hand.

We have always maintained there is a difference, In fact a few people tried to show Jimbo that there was a difference

i hardly think so when i was the first one to make reference to saving grace and enabling grace.. just keep up your fantasies.. geeze your so funny..

 

[sevenseas]

13And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. I Thess 2:13


no no no! say it ain't so!

Paul is commending people who do not understand that believe is not faith!

somebody...almost (notice I said almost) anybody!

call the reformers...or Martin Luther...or Wiki...or even Wiki leaks!

 

[sevenseas]

and surely this is worse. much worse. Peter standing on the balcony and saying believe in Jesus I have no faith in that


31They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”


nuh nuh no!!!

Pete even included the whole household!

think of the dozens, nay, thousands of deluded believers added to the faith that day

what did they really believe?

 

[sevenseas]

want more? there's more!

I think I may have to learn latin or something

my dog can actually catch her tail. thing is, she never knows what to do with it when she does

 

[FranC]

wrong, belief just means mental ascent, if you have faith, you are assured or trust, whicj is much deeper than belief

I believe you are fran, does not mean i trust you at all

I believed Obama was my president, I had no faith in him at all,

I can believe in jesus, does not mean i trust him at all.

as james said, you believe you do well, even demons believe, but if your faith is dead, your belief means nothing

EG,

If BELIEVE means only mental assent, then what is the difference between these two verses?

James 2:19

John 3:16

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James 2:19 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

19 You believe that [a]God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.



John 3:16 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[FranC]

Not really the same Fran. Believe is of us. It's our belief which is when we hear the gospel and put our being or as Strongs says, we entrust ourself to the one we've heard about.

Faith is different. It actually is substance in the supernatural. That's why we keep in faith because it's power with God.

So if I BELIEVE IN GOD

I don't have FAITH IN GOD??

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I didn't say "I believe there IS a God"

I said "I BELIEVE IN GOD".


please explain the difference....

 

[Meggido]

And, alas, herein lies part of the problem.

If you can state that BELIEVE and FAITH is diffferent, thus you come to incorrect conclusions.

It's apparent that many here do not know what BELIEVE means even though I've been talking about it for at least two months now.

Know why?

It does not suit your belief system to understand what BELIEVE means.

It's not up to me to convince you. That's not why I'm here.

I listed the meanings. If you cannot even believe those, what's left to say?

I tend to believe what Jesus says.
If HE said that the seeds in the parable of the sower heard with JOY,
yet he had no firm root
but was only TEMPORARY
and when affliction or persecution came
because of the word
IMMEDIATELY he FALLS AWAY.

There is a price to be paid for being in the Kingdom of God.
Some are not willing to accept this.
So what do they do...?

1. When trouble comes along, they FALL AWAY.

2. They make a doctrine of easy believism.
They tell themselves that NOTHING is required of them --- only believe.

Too bad they don't know what believe means to God.
Too bad they aren't willing to pay the price for staying in the Kingdom.

I cannot see Skippy's posts because he is taking a long train ride to iggy land...but I saw his quote...that believing is just mental assent...

Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull

wrong, belief just means mental ascent, if you have faith, you are assured or trust, whicj is much deeper than belief

I believe you are fran, does not mean i trust you at all

I believed Obama was my president, I had no faith in him at all,

I can believe in jesus, does not mean i trust him at all.

as james said, you believe you do well, even demons believe, but if your faith is dead, your belief means nothing

Matthew 21:22


"And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."


John 20:31


but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.



John 20:29




Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed

John 6:47 Verse Concepts

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.



Mark 9:23 Verse Concepts

And Jesus said to him, " 'If You can?' All things are possible to him who believes."


Romans 10:17 Verse Concepts

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.


James 2:19 Verse Concepts

You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.


Acts 16:31 Verse Concepts

They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."


2 Corinthians 4:13 Verse Concepts

But having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, "I BELIEVED, THEREFORE I SPOKE," we also believe, therefore we also speak,


1 John 3:23 Verse Concepts

This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.


Romans 10:11 Verse Concepts

For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."


John 14:1 Verse Concepts

"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.


Hebrews 11:1 Verse Concepts

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.


Romans 10:9 Verse Concepts

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;


John 6:29 Verse Concepts

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."


John 11:40 Verse Concepts

Jesus said to her, "Did I not say to you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?"


Mark 5:36 Verse Concepts

But Jesus, overhearing what was being spoken, said to the synagogue official, "Do not be afraid any longer, only believe."


1 Peter 1:8 Verse Concepts

and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,


Romans 10:10 Verse Concepts

for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.


Matthew 18:19 Verse Concepts

"Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.


Ephesians 6:16 Verse Concepts

in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.


Hebrews 11:6 Verse Concepts

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.


2 Thessalonians 2:11 Verse Concepts


For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,


Mark 1:15 Verse Concepts

and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."


James 1:6 Verse Concepts


But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind.



John 3:36 Verse Concepts

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."


Mark 16:16 Verse Concepts

"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.


2 Corinthians 5:7 Verse Concepts

for we walk by faith, not by sight--


2 Corinthians 4:18 Verse Concepts

while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.


Romans 15:13 Verse Concepts

Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.


Luke 1:45 Verse Concepts

"And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord."


source for bible verses for all to see is:

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Believing

 

[Stephen63]

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[Meggido]

Hi Meggido

I have two points with your post. If one of us is stubborn while during this period of grace to the body, yes that one will be chastened. Usually it starts with the Word. Then our life may fall apart. Then He hems one in so that the "desire" whatever it may be is completely unreachable...and if not still repenting? That one dies. Or goes home.

Another point. Was it the punishment for lying with Ananias and Sapphira? Or was it because they tempted the Holy Spirit who was present in Peter? And were they actually standing against the authority of Peter?

Acts 5.4-5, 8-9

[SUP]4 [/SUP]While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” [SUP]5 [/SUP]And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And Peter responded to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?” And she said, “Yes, that was the price.” [SUP]9 [/SUP]Then Peter said to her, “Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well.

The Bible clearly said they died because they lied to the Holy Spirit...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

if I call a zebra a giraffe, will that make the zebra a giraffe?

you and dcon telling someone they are attacking does not make it so

When they slander us, make false statement about us, and continue to say things which are not true about us, even though it has been shown by us and others.

it is an attack.

I was told I condemned someone to hell yesterday, That was a lie
I was told I change my view on things, That is a lie, proven by another poster, that I have always maintained the same thing
I was told I did not believe things I do yesterday.

All those are slander, You attack people by slandering them.

amazingly, Dcon and myself are the ones who keep getting told we attack others. and that is why they went on this war against us.

If you do not want to confront a brother who is sin sin, that is on you, But please do not tell me I am not being slandered and attacked when I am.

 

[BillG]

And, alas, herein lies part of the problem.

If you can state that BELIEVE and FAITH is diffferent, thus you come to incorrect conclusions.

It's apparent that many here do not know what BELIEVE means even though I've been talking about it for at least two months now.

Know why?

It does not suit your belief system to understand what BELIEVE means.

It's not up to me to convince you. That's not why I'm here.

I listed the meanings. If you cannot even believe those, what's left to say?

I tend to believe what Jesus says.
If HE said that the seeds in the parable of the sower heard with JOY,
yet he had no firm root
but was only TEMPORARY
and when affliction or persecution came
because of the word
IMMEDIATELY he FALLS AWAY.

There is a price to be paid for being in the Kingdom of God.
Some are not willing to accept this.
So what do they do...?

1. When trouble comes along, they FALL AWAY.

2. They make a doctrine of easy believism.
They tell themselves that NOTHING is required of them --- only believe.

Too bad they don't know what believe means to God.
Too bad they aren't willing to pay the price for staying in the Kingdom.

I would say that believe/belief and faith with regard to salvation are intrinsically connected.

Belief is to be accept something/someone exists and is true even without proof.
Faith is then to have complete trust in that something/someone.

It is intersting though that one can believe and trust

John 12:42-50
Walk in the Light
42 Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
44 Then Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. 46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.”

I would say that belief/faith is encompassed as belief is to accept the claims of Jesus, his death and resurrection then place place faith in him. As a result then actions will follow.

To me we are justified/saved by faith alone without good works
As a result actions will follow.

To me Paul & James are not conflicting each other, rather they complement each other.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

To me we need to be very very careful indeed to judge people based on the bar/level we set that determines works/obedience.
And whether they have true saving faith.

Gods kids grow at a different pace.
Immaturity should lead to maturity.
Some take longer to grow up than others and some may remain immature but still have faith in Jesus.

To me the problem is that it is so so easy to say "Just grow up God as commanded this, stop sinning and do good works" then leave it at that.

That is so so wrong.

We need to come alongside with love and Godly wisdom.

We have no idea what is going on behind the scenes of someone who says they have placed faith in Jesus yet don't seem to be waking in that faith.

Some will want to pay the price for believing and stand firm but for some reason fall and fall and fall.
We need to find out why.

If we love our brother as ourselves (as commanded) then we will do this.
If they refuse then church discipline time.

If we love as required then we are loving God as well.
Jesus restored Peter, indulged Thomas, saved a man called Saul who was out to persecute him.
David knew that God did not want a sacrifice but a contrite heart.

Just my limited thoughts.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

13And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. I Thess 2:13


no no no! say it ain't so!

Paul is commending people who do not understand that believe is not faith!

somebody...almost (notice I said almost) anybody!

call the reformers...or Martin Luther...or Wiki...or even Wiki leaks!

One can believe (mentally agree) and not have faith (an assurance or trust) , do you agree?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

and surely this is worse. much worse. Peter standing on the balcony and saying believe in Jesus I have no faith in that


31They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”


nuh nuh no!!!

Pete even included the whole household!

think of the dozens, nay, thousands of deluded believers added to the faith that day

what did they really believe?

Did they just believe, or did that have saving faith?