Not By Works

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TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Well cannot be any clearer from scripture, not sure why people would argue against this.

Jesus is the source of our love :D

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"Loved unto the End" Sunday Morning SermonBy: C.H. Spurgeon
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[TD][/TD]
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"The Lord hath not cast away his people which he foreknew" (Romans 11:2).

He chose us from eternity, and He will love us throughout eternity. He loved us so as to die for us, and we may therefore be sure that His love will never die. His honor is so wrapped up in the salvation of the believer that He can no more cast him of than He can cast off His own robes of office as King of glory. No, no! The Lord Jesus, as a Head, never casts off His members; as a Husband, He never casts off His bride. Did you think you were cast off? Why did you think so evil of the Lord who has betrothed you to Himself? Cast off such thoughts, and never let them lodge in your soul again..

 
Apr 30, 2016
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What I'm saying is blatantly obvious to those who use their brains..

Once we're saved, we do good works because they are commanded to be done. But not for the purpose of KEEPING salvation.. so YES, if you're doing good works to stay saved, you're doing them for the wrong reason.

God says love thy neighbor, so how do we do that? By doing good things for them. WITHOUT expectation of keeping salvation.. And yes Fran, no offense, but you truly are very thick on this subject..
Or maybe YOU are?
Someone who likes to "teach" the word of God, or professes to understand it, should really try to PRACTIC WHAT THEY PREACH.

You keep speaking about love BUT DEMONSTRATE NONE.

You say we're to do good works because they are commanded.
Then you speak to me about loving your neighbor.

Am I not your neighbor?
So are you doing the good work of loving me?
Why not?
Were you not commanded to do so?

Did you ever stop to think that maybe you're not saved?

If we are to do good works because we LOVE JESUS, as you have stated many times, then maybe you don't love Jesus?
Otherwise, wouldn't you be obeying Him as He wishes and wouldn't you be loving your neighbor?

Yes. You're very confused indeed.

And the reason why I'm thick in understanding YOU
is because you say things that are VERY DIFFICULT to understand.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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You are comparing refrigerated food to the seal of God? That is His stamp of approval and no one can take that away. We have the promises that state salvation is from beginning to the end...or the day of the Lord.
Amen...the scriptures are clear.

True biblical belief is of the heart - not in the head or mind. God looks on the heart - man look on the outward appearance.

Getting "saved" is simple but it was not cheap not should we cheapen it by calling it greasy grace, easy believism ...etc - it cost our Lord's life and blood to obtain an eternal redemption for us. Heb. 9:12.

Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The process is simple too.

1) we hear the message of Christ - the gospel of our salvation in Him

2) we believe the message from our hearts

3) we were sealed with the Holy Spirit

(
Jesus said in John 14:16 that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever - now was Jesus lying or is He like a "bait and switch" car salesman that has "fine print" which He doesn't talk about )

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, = 1)

the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, = 2)

you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, =
3)


you were sealed =
aorist indicative tense / passive voice = a one time event in the past.

Passive voice = the sealing was not done by us but by an outside force - the Holy Spirit Himself.


 
Apr 30, 2016
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so you want everyone to see that franc is a roman cathloic with an agenda ?? i would say this is not the work of christ also... well done youve just recieved another star in your crown......not
Jimbo, I've said several times that I'm not Catholic and I've asked MMD to stop speaking to me about the Catholic Church, but, alas, he refuses to.

It does make me wonder why.

Some on this thread keep speaking about the love of Jesus and how we should do good works only because we love Jesus,

BUT THEN THEY SHOW NO LOVE.
So does this mean they DON'T love Jesus?

It's mysterious indeed !
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Wrong....Study James properly these snippets destroy Truth

James is writing to the Jews, who are learning how to come out from under the Law and what role works have to play in their final judgment.

The question of faith has already been settled, we are saved by faith, James knew this he was a born again believer.

James is teaching on the profitable life of the Christian and being judged by the law of liberty when we stand before God

[SUP]12 [/SUP]So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
James 2:12

Those under the law of liberty are already justified by faith in Christ.

Faith alone does not profit because we are already justified by faith, for the believer’s judgement before God it is works that will be Rewarded, that is why he is stressing works


As well he plainly states that dead faith is faith that is alone….works are not to save but to bear witness of who we are in Christ and for eternal rewards.


Dead here means ineffective.











Dead faith is faith without works attached. Here's the context where that is explained:

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:14-16 NASB)

And note, it can not save. Dead faith (note: faith) can not save. The person who gets to the Day of Judgement without works attached to their confession of faith will be put on the left with the goats.
 
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PHart

Guest
You are comparing refrigerated food to the seal of God?
I'm asking you, does 'sealed' automatically mean 'not able to unsealed'? Of course it doesn't. But Christians automatically see the definition of 'sealed' as 'not able to be unsealed'. They say OSAS is true based on the use of the word sealed, but 'sealed' doesn't mean 'unable to be unsealed'. If that were true then your leftovers in the refrigerator can never be unsealed.


That is His stamp of approval and no one can take that away. We have the promises that state salvation is from beginning to the end...or the day of the Lord.
This is a very superficial understanding of security in salvation. It ignores the whole context of the Bible about this subject. It is true that no one has the power to violate a seal that God himself has set. That hardly means, by definition, that God himself can not and would not break the seal. It's his seal, just like the seal of an earthly king in ancient times. He himself could break it, of course.

And since the seal of God is conditioned on believing He will remove the seal on the one who stops believing. The power of God that preserves us for the Day of Salvation comes through faith. The only reasonable point of discussion in OSAS is whether or not the true believer can ever stop believing, not what will happen if he does stop believing, or whether or not continued believing is required.
 
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lol zero percent emissions is what the the new car zoe repersents have you got one of them haha
There's a car named Zoe??
Really?

So then it shouldn't be zero percent emmission.
It should be 100% emmission! (God's love and Zoe life)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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But I can't grasp that one can have eternal life without the second birth.
If you would stop confusing eternal life with eternal death, everything would be crystal clear. The ones who experience the second birth DO NOT experience the second death (eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire). The ones who experience only the first birth, do experience the second death. Because it is "death" in its worst manifestation, it is called "the second death". That is why there is eternal weeping and gnashing of teeth, and the smoke of their torment continues for ever. I trust we can see now why the Gospel is so critical, and why Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.
 
Apr 23, 2017
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Please read my post again.
Please don't mock persons that are trying not to do those things you listed.

WHY ARE YOU ENCOURAGING BAD BEHAVIOR???

THIS was my question.
I said that Christians I know try not to do those things.
YOU are writing as if they WERE NORMAL to do.

There'a a difference.

Would you care to explain what you really meant?
Seems just by reading, that you're saying it's OK to sin.
im not saying those are good things........... what im saying is: i dont know any christian who doesn't do ANY of the things listed in galatians 5:19-21 or "things like that"..............
im just trying to be realistic, we're all outta luck when it comes to inheriting the Kingdom......... maybe thats why Jesus died because we cant make it otherwise.
i see where u are coming from i used to think the same way too but when u put on the reality glasses and check urself and the christians around u, u will notice that we all kinda fall flat on our face.............
 
Apr 30, 2016
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A branch cannot disconnect itself
Jesus used analogies.

We're not a tree. We're a human being.
Read John 15:5-6
JESUS said if we do not ABIDE IN HIM, we are thrown away as a dry branch and are thrown into the fire and burn.


John 15:5-6 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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I'm asking you, does 'sealed' automatically mean 'not able to unsealed'? Of course it doesn't. But Christians automatically see the definition of 'sealed' as 'not able to be unsealed'. They say OSAS is true based on the use of the word sealed, but 'sealed' doesn't mean 'unable to be unsealed'. If that were true then your leftovers in the refrigerator can never be unsealed.



This is a very superficial understanding of security in salvation. It ignores the whole context of the Bible about this subject. It is true that no one has the power to violate a seal that God himself has set. That hardly means, by definition, that God himself would not break the seal. It's his seal, just like the seal of an earthly king in ancient times. He himself could break it, of course. And since the seal of God is conditioned on believing He will remove the seal on the one who stops believing. The power of God the preserves us for the Day of Salvation is through faith. The only reasonable point of discussion in OSAS is whether or not the true believer can ever stop believing, not what will happen if he does stop believing, or whether or not continued believing is required.
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed G4972 G2532  us, G2248  and G2532  given G1325  the G3588  earnest G728  of the G3588  Spirit G4151  in G1722  our G2257  hearts. G2588


His Spirit given never leaves us or will He forsake us. He remains faithful when we are not, for He cannot, will not, deny Himself. The foundation is secure because He keeps us. Promises are all through the scriptures.


Sealed:

G4972

σφραγίζω
sphragizō
sfrag-id'-zo
From G4973; to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication to keep secret, to attest: - (set a, set to) seal up, stop.
Total KJV occurrences: 26

security and preservation.

two greek words to explain sealed. The second:

[h=1]G2532[/h]καί
kai
kahee
Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words: - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yea, yet.
 
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Apr 30, 2016
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Nope. I was just making the point that I hear this exact same argument from Roman Catholics and other works salvationists. Your straw man argument is not work of Christ and neither is teaching salvation by works.
I'll get to that long post after dinner.
But in the meantime, I can only repeat that I keep hearing that some here are trying to work their way to salvation.

WHO???

I think everyone on this thread is saved. it sure sounds like it.

Are you saying I'm not saved and I'm trying to WORK my way to salvation?
Have you not been reading my posts for the past 700 pages?
Did I EVER SAY we could be saved by works?
Do you have the feeling I don't know the difference between JUSTIFICATION AND SANCTIFICATION??
 
P

PHart

Guest
Wrong....Study James properly these snippets destroy Truth

James is writing to the Jews, who are learning how to come out from under the Law and what role works have to play in their final judgment.

The question of faith has already been settled, we are saved by faith, James knew this he was a born again believer.

James is teaching on the profitable life of the Christian and being judged by the law of liberty when we stand before God

[SUP]12 [/SUP]So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
James 2:12

Those under the law of liberty are already justified by faith in Christ.

Faith alone does not profit because we are already justified by faith, for the believer’s judgement before God it is works that will be Rewarded, that is why he is stressing works


As well he plainly states that dead faith is faith that is alone….works are not to save but to bear witness of who we are in Christ and for eternal rewards.


Dead here means ineffective.
Did you forget? John said the man who doesn't have works is not born again.

So if you make James about being saved unto rewards and that a Christ professing person can indeed not have works and still be saved on the Day of Judgement then you put James in direct contradiction with John and the rest of the whole counsel of God's word.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
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I'll get to that long post after dinner.
But in the meantime, I can only repeat that I keep hearing that some here are trying to work their way to salvation.

WHO???

I think everyone on this thread is saved. it sure sounds like it.

Are you saying I'm not saved and I'm trying to WORK my way to salvation?
Have you not been reading my posts for the past 700 pages?
Did I EVER SAY we could be saved by works?
Do you have the feeling I don't know the difference between JUSTIFICATION AND SANCTIFICATION??

You said kept by our good works. Many times in fact.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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The reason there is so much resistance to what Fran is saying is because the church is incapable of understanding works as the obligatory footprints of faith. They think faith and works are two completely distinct and separate thingsin life and so they think it entirely possible to live a full, long life with all arms and legs, and mouth working and you can get to the Judgment with nothing but a cold, dead, empty OSAS confession of faith in Christ and not have a life characterized by righteous work and Christ will usher you into the kingdom. That's not even remotely true. Many will be sorely surprised on the Day of Judgment to find out that James was not lying when he said dead faith (faith without works attached) can not save.

The only place that works and faith are distinct and separate is in justification. You are not justified by works. That is impossible. You would have to have been a perfect person, according to all of the law, to be justified by what you do. This truth the church knows quite well. The problem is, they think justification by faith apart from works means they do not have any obligation to purposely and consciously walk in good works because as they love to say, "salvation is soooo not of works", which it true, but they don't realize if they truly had justification apart from their works their life must prove the presence of that justification. They boast and brag about how powerful God is in salvation in saving works-less people but don't seem to realize that that belief also shows God to be so pathetically unable and powerless to cause their faith to manifest itself in a life of righteous living.
Excellent point PHart.

I'm not there and it's difficult to know what's going on, but I do understand that it has to be the responsibility of the Church in general when one can state such incorrect doctrine.

The churches that teach this easy believism (not my term) must be pretty full.
It sounds so good. Jesus DID IT ALL. So it sounds like WE don't have to do anything!

If we don't have to do anything, HOW is the Kingdom of God promoted?
HOW are the people in His Kingdom acting or behaving?

Kingdoms have rules.
If the rules are not obeyed, persons are thrown into prison.

I have to continue with my Kingdom Blog.
It'a a really important concept and one which it seems to me not many know.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
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You are comparing refrigerated food to the seal of God? That is His stamp of approval and no one can take that away. We have the promises that state salvation is from beginning to the end...or the day of the Lord.
[TABLE="class: cms_table"]
[TR]
[TD]
"Loved unto the End" Sunday Morning Sermon

By: C.H. Spurgeon
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


"The Lord hath not cast away his people which he foreknew" (Romans 11:2).

He chose us from eternity, and He will love us throughout eternity. He loved us so as to die for us, and we may therefore be sure that His love will never die. His honor is so wrapped up in the salvation of the believer that He can no more cast him off than He can cast off His own robes of office as King of glory. No, no! The Lord Jesus, as a Head, never casts off His members; as a Husband, He never casts off His bride. Did you think you were cast off? Why did you think so evil of the Lord who has betrothed you to Himself? Cast off such thoughts, and never let them lodge in your soul again..
 
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stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TruthTalk again.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
A result is a result!!!

It is the outcome of something.

You are redefining words to suit your purpose.

We have seen and continue to see (result). The result cannot change otherwise it would not be the perfect tense

It has nothing to do with visualizing. It is a continued result!!!




Here, read this:
5. Perfect Tense
The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present. Sample translation: "I have believed."
Notice that the perfect tense carries two ideas: (1) completed action and (2) continuing results. The action was completed at some time in the past, and the results continue up to the present.
Example: We can see the perfect tense in action in 1 John 1:3: "What we have seen and [have] heard we proclaim to you also."
The apostle John is making the point that he was an eyewitness to the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ, and that personal experience serves as the basis for the message that he proclaims decades later. You might paraphrase the first verb as "We saw Him, and we can still visualize what we saw." One writer has explained the second verb as "We heard Him, and His words are still ringing in our ears." John saw and heard Jesus many years earlier, and that era of his life has been completed. But the results continue. What he learned so many years ago remains with him now.

(From
http://ezraproject.com/id27.html emphasis mine)



As you can see the Perfect tense does not mean the continuing results of the action completed goes on beyond the present and can not be stopped. It simply means whatever the results of the completed action are, they continue beyond the moment the action was completed.

Don't add 'those results can't be stopped' to the definition. For example, it's entirely possible in the example given above that a person could one day forget what someone told them years ago even though what they said many years ago had continued in their mind for a long time.
 
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2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this SEAL, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This is the seal that they depart from iniquity,for there are many that claim Jesus as Lord,but hold unto sin,and think they are alright,and they never learn throughout their lifetime that sin does affect their relationship with God.

1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Salvation is available to all people.

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.

Everyone that confesses Jesus is Lord,and come in flesh,God is working in their life to help them to see the truth,and that truth is to be led by the Spirit,and abstain from sin,and if you do sin do not hold unto sin,but repent,and let it go,but the main thing is do not hold unto sin,and think you are right with God,for that is what God wants us to understand,for we can always be forgiven for sins,but we need to realize the truth that holding unto sin,and thinking we are right with God is the culprit.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Many are called,but few are chosen,which is why many people can claim Jesus as Lord,and come in the flesh,but still not dwell in heaven,for God wants everybody to be saved,so we have a choice in the matter,and we still have a choice after we are saved.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Every time we sin we put ourselves in a position of not being right with God,and the blood of Jesus cannot wash it away until we get rid of it,and not want it.

And at the time we are holding unto sin,then we are considered not in the truth,and a sinner,and need to be converted again,which means repent of all sins,and do not want sins.

We can always be forgiven of sin,even if we hold unto sin for a year,but the culprit is people that hold unto sin,and it is part of their lifestyle,and they think they are right with God,for then they never give up the sins they enjoy,which is why the Bible says they are ever learning,and never able to come to the truth.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Many are called,but few are chosen,and anyone that thinks they stand,take heed lest you fall.

But some will not give heed,because they are ever learning,and never able to come to the truth,and that truth is do not hold unto sin,and think you are right with God,for then the blood of Christ cannot wash away that sin.