Not By Works

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UnderGrace

Guest
That is not what dead faith means and nor should one line be pulled from context....and you make an awful lot of assumptions about those know eternal life is a gift not based on self works but on the work of Christ!!


The reason there is so much resistance to what Fran is saying is because the church is incapable of understanding works as the obligatory footprints of faith. They think faith and works are two completely distinct and separate things in life and so they think it entirely possible to live a full, long life with all arms and legs, and mouth working and you can get to the Judgment with nothing but a cold, dead, empty OSAS confession of faith in Christ and not have a life characterized by righteous work and Christ will usher you into the kingdom. That's not even remotely true. Many will be sorely surprised on the Day of Judgment to find out that James was not lying when he said dead faith (faith without works attached) can not save.

The only place that works and faith are distinct and separate is in justification. You are not justified by works. That is impossible. You would have to have been a perfect person, according to all of the law, to be justified by what you do. This truth the church knows quite well. The problem is, they think justification by faith apart from works means they do not have any obligation to purposely and consciously walk in good works because as they love to say, "salvation is soooo not of works", which it isn't, but they don't realize if they truly had justification apart from their works their life must prove the presence of that justification. They boast and they brag about how powerful God is in salvation in saving works-less people but don't seem to realize that that belief also shows God to be so pathetically unable and powerful enough to cause their faith to manifest itself in a life of righteous living.
 
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PHart

Guest
how when one has been sealed within.
Why do you add 'unable to be unsealed' to the definition of 'sealed'?

Since when is it that sealed means unable to be unsealed?

Is the Lasagna in your refrigerator unable to be unsealed simply because it is presently sealed? If it goes bad you will indeed unseal it and cast it away.
 
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We do good works by default when we are aligned to God (100% filled with the Holy Spirit). This is a rare occurrence.

We would have already got there, to be doing good works naturally, rather than the other way around. However 'choosing' to do good works when it does not come by default, is a good way to align to God.

And most are not aligned to God (100% you are, 99% you are not), just as most people here speak hypothetically. In fact most Christians speak hypothetically based on Biblical/Scriptural learning, rather than based on experience. It would be nice to hear that which comes from knowing.
 
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PHart

Guest
We do good works by default when we are aligned to God (100% filled with the Holy Spirit). This is a rare occurrence.

We would have already got there, to be doing good works naturally, rather than the other way around. However 'choosing' to do good works when it does not come by default, is a good way to align to God.

And most are not aligned to God (100% you are, 99% you are not), just as most people here speak hypothetically. In fact most Christians speak hypothetically based on Biblical/Scriptural learning, rather than based on experience. It would be nice to hear that which comes from knowing.
But the church has been taught that to purposely do good is to be trying to earn your own salvation. How absurd.

I would expect a professing Christian to purposely restrain himself from wanting to steal from me (or whatever) when tempted to do so, even if he didn't feel like doing the right thing in that moment. As you say, until we arrive at the perfection of the glorified Christ we all will indeed be making conscious decisions to choose right from wrong, and that will certainly not be us trying to save ourselves (how foolish to think that), but it will certainly show us to possess the justification that comes from faith apart from works.
 
Mar 7, 2016
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We do good works by default when we are aligned to God (100% filled with the Holy Spirit). This is a rare occurrence.

We would have already got there, to be doing good works naturally, rather than the other way around. However 'choosing' to do good works when it does not come by default, is a good way to align to God.

And most are not aligned to God (100% you are, 99% you are not), just as most people here speak hypothetically. In fact most Christians speak hypothetically based on Biblical/Scriptural learning, rather than based on experience. It would be nice to hear that which comes from knowing.
this is like saying no one did good works in the days of the old testerment,,, have you considered this coz we do know Moses did become holy..
 
Mar 7, 2016
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Originally Posted by JIMBO43

because you have now been connected to the vine..... but need i remind you that you can disconnect yourself too..

how when one has been sealed within.
just like you cant believe my testimonies.. thats how..
 
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PHart

Guest
That is not what dead faith means and nor should one line be pulled from context....and you make an awful lot of assumptions about those know eternal life is a gift not based on self works but on the work of Christ!!
Dead faith is faith without works attached. Here's the context where that is explained:

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:14-16 NASB)

And note, it can not save. Dead faith (note: faith) can not save. The person who gets to the Day of Judgement without works attached to their confession of faith will be put on the left with the goats.
 
Mar 7, 2016
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[video=youtube;uHz0w-HG4iU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHz0w-HG4iU&index=11&list=RD2q0QC4arRjM[/video]
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Why do you add 'unable to be unsealed' to the definition of 'sealed'?

Since when is it that sealed means unable to be unsealed?
Actually, and still, you don't know what you're talking about. You make a mockery of the sealing of the Spirit, and are facetious when speaking of it dismissively, as you do.

This sealing and its tense show that it cannot be undone, but is, in context of Ephesians 1:12-14 kept intact until the converted person experiences redemption.

That you believe a person can undo this work of the Spirit borders blasphemy, is utterly arrogant, ignorant of Gospel facts, and dismissive of the eternal work of God upon His elect.

Is the Lasagna in your refrigerator unable to be unsealed simply because it is presently sealed? If it goes bad you will indeed unseal it and cast it away.
Of course, no Scripture, just an asinine and sacrilegious illustration is offered concerning the work of the Spirit of God.

The above shows your blatant and facetious attitude toward the sealing of the Spirit upon His elect, comparing this to a package of lasagna.

It is, frankly, obtuse of you.

You really ought repent of your attitude towards the Spirits eternal sealing of His elect. You're opposing His eternal and gracious work.
 
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PHart

Guest
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UnderGrace

Guest
I have no affiliation to Calvinism,

But it seems once again you have missed what scripture is saying very plainly.


The word γεγέννηται as a perfect tense describes for the child of God that the kind of birth experienced out from the God is a “perfect birth,” that is, a birth that is completed in the past with present, continuing results. The New Birth is a perfect birth.

Thusly, the child of God is one who is generated out from the God and remains generated out from the God; further, the child of God is one who (because of his birth out from the God) is continuously believing



The perfect tense in Koine Greek, indisputably refers to a completed or once-and-for-all action in the past with a permanent result in the future. This language is deliberate and for a reason.

You have absolutely not argument against this, Koine Greek is the perfect language to express this reality. The once and for all action has a permanent future result.

If you spoke other languages you would understand this concept.







Thank you. We have 75% of the battle conquered...you understand the argument.



Except for the 'unborn' part, I agree. The born again experience is a one-time deal. It only happens once, only needs to happen once, and God does not allow it to happen for a person a second time. You only get one shot at it.



Yes, being born again is a completed action that continues up to the present time. No one disputes this. And it will continue as a completed action into the future if you keep believing. That's what the Bible plainly says.

The author of your quote says the born again person is continuously believing. That has to be true. That's what secures the born again experience. But will that person always believe? That is the true question of whether or not OSAS is true.

The only fundamental disagreement with Calvinist OSASer's I have is I believe that genuinely believing people can stop believing. Calvinists believe if you stop believing you were 'not really' a true believer to begin with. They say if you had been a true believer you would not have stopped believing. I respect the argument, but I also respectfully disagree with it at this point in my doctrinal development (and personal experience--no not me, someone else, lol).
 
Apr 30, 2016
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If you want to discuss scripture with me Fran, bring them. One by one and will discuss.

By the way, Jesus fulfilled His mission. Then sent Holy Spirit for the work in us. Listen to Paul, for he was given the revelation of the body of Christ, who is us on earth, and those in heaven.
You want to discuss scripture?
You don't even know what Jesus' main theme was when He preached.

Here's an easier question...
WHAT WAS JESUS MAIN THEME IN PREACHING?
Was it salvation or was it the Kingdom of God?

Is that one also too difficult?
 
Apr 30, 2016
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with great respect to you, ma'am, i think the question is who's working to stay saved?

my husband and i were reading Isaiah and Jeremiah yesterday. so many times God speaks of what HE is doing, and will do.
"I will not share my glory with another."

Who else would God be sharing His glory with?
What does this post of yours mean?

Do YOU not do ANY works for God??
WHY do YOU do them?
 
P

PHart

Guest
I have no affiliation to Calvinism,

But it seems once again you have missed what scripture is saying very plainly.


The word γεγέννηται as a perfect tense describes for the child of God that the kind of birth experienced out from the God is a “perfect birth,” that is, a birth that is completed in the past with present, continuing results. The New Birth is a perfect birth.

Thusly, the child of God is one who is generated out from the God and remains generated out from the God; further, the child of God is one who (because of his birth out from the God) is continuously believing



The perfect tense in Koine Greek, indisputably refers to a completed or once-and-for-all action in the past with a permanent result in the future. This language is deliberate and for a reason.

You have absolutely not argument against this, Koine Greek is the perfect language to express this reality. The once and for all action has a permanent future result.

If you spoke other languages you would understand this concept.
Here, read this:


5. Perfect Tense
The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present. Sample translation: "I have believed."
Notice that the perfect tense carries two ideas: (1) completed action and (2) continuing results. The action was completed at some time in the past, and the results continue up to the present.
Example: We can see the perfect tense in action in 1 John 1:3: "What we have seen and [have] heard we proclaim to you also."
The apostle John is making the point that he was an eyewitness to the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ, and that personal experience serves as the basis for the message that he proclaims decades later. You might paraphrase the first verb as "We saw Him, and we can still visualize what we saw." One writer has explained the second verb as "We heard Him, and His words are still ringing in our ears." John saw and heard Jesus many years earlier, and that era of his life has been completed. But the results continue. What he learned so many years ago remains with him now.

(From
http://ezraproject.com/id27.html emphasis mine)



As you can see the Perfect tense does not mean the continuing results of the action completed goes on beyond the present and can not be stopped. It simply means whatever the results of the completed action are, they continue beyond the moment the action was completed.

Don't add 'those results can't be stopped' to the definition. For example, it's entirely possible in the example given above that a person could one day forget what someone told them years ago even though what they said many years ago had continued in their mind for a long time.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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But it seems with what I've read that they will be brought to life again only to then die a second death...doubly dead - once humanly, as we all die, and then a second time because they have no eternal life by the second birth.

Interesting stuff here! :)
What do you mean SBG?

When a person dies they go to be where they're supposed to be.

At the RESURRECTION, there is the final Death (or LIFE)
We don't stay dead when we die.
Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
Ditto for those that are going to the other place.

There are 3 deaths:
Physical
Spiritual
Eternal

Eternal Death is when one goes to hell, because it is permanent.

I think you're getting judgement mixed up with what happens after Death???
 
Nov 12, 2015
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Zoe life is a quality of life, not just the existence of life itself. Did a quick Google search that will help with this:Three Greek Words for Life in the New Testament and How They Apply to Us | Bibles for America Weekly Blog

Only Christians have zoe life. And only obedient Christians get to enjoy it.
Thanks, Ill read that today. It may help me. :)
I actually was just thinking that the way I look at it would help the argument of OSAS. And it would help it not just a little bit either - it would help it to the point of cementing it, to my mind.

By that I mean, if satan appears to be an eternal being somehow apart from the Holy 'Spirit in him, (and it certainly does appear that way) and you take into account that He blocked the way to the tree of life so that we would NOT have that as satan does apart from Him, it would seem to show that eternal life cannot be given and then taken back.

But I'll read what you posted here for me and go look for the verses. :)
 
Apr 30, 2016
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No, no one is born with eternal life within them, since eternal life is God's GIFT to the one who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ and repents of his sins (Romans 6:23).

However, all human beings are tripartite beings, with a spirit, a soul, and a body (1 Thess 5:23). Mortality always pertains to the body and physical death. The spirit and soul are imperishable, which means that there is an afterlife for both the saved (in Heaven) and the unsaved (in Hades until the final judgment). Annihilationism -- a false doctrine -- teaches that the unsaved cease to exist. That is because they misinterpret or deliberately choose to misunderstand "perish" and "destroy". That is not true, but that is what Satan would love to see people believe.
Perfectly said N.

I just think the first paragraph could cause a little confusion to one who doesn't already know all this.
We get Zoe Life when we come to believe in Jesus.

You made it sound like we have this from Birth BEFORE we believe in Jesus.
 
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PHart

Guest
I have no affiliation to Calvinism
Actually you do.
If you are OSAS (not H-grace OSAS, which is a joke), then you indeed have some kind of affiliation with Calvinism. Maybe not all of it, but most definitely with the OSAS aspect of it.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
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Who else would God be sharing His glory with?
What does this post of yours mean?

Do YOU not do ANY works for God??
WHY do YOU do them?
And because of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” (1 Cor 1:30-31)

i'll not go into a litany of anything i do.

do i believe Christians should obey God? indeed, i do.
do i believe Christians are meriting salvation (or the maintenance thereof) in their obedience? i do not.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Why do you add 'unable to be unsealed' to the definition of 'sealed'?

Since when is it that sealed means unable to be unsealed?

Is the Lasagna in your refrigerator unable to be unsealed simply because it is presently sealed? If it goes bad you will indeed unseal it and cast it away.

You are comparing refrigerated food to the seal of God? That is His stamp of approval and no one can take that away. We have the promises that state salvation is from beginning to the end...or the day of the Lord.