Not By Works

[DiscipleDave]

AMEN...I agree.....get ready for the workers for to come out of the woodwork and say the thief is not an example of N.T. salvation.....even though the law and prophets were until JOHN and the thief is a prime example of N.T. salvation without works and water.....

The Thief is a good example of N.T. Salvation. Any person even on their death bed can GET SAVED, that is not, nor ever was the issue. The issue is, what do you do once you ARE SAVED.

The thief on the cross was unable to get baptised, to produce any good fruits. Those who GET SAVED on their death beds are likewise in the same boat. Unable to DO anything.

The Thief would not be able to read the Word of God either. That is the difference between thief and YOU. They are not able to live by the Word of God, but you are able to do so. We who are able, read that we are to DO what Jesus commands us to do. The thief and those with deathbed Salvations CAN'T DO what Jesus commands. But YOU can do what He commands, and that is the issue that i bring up over and over again. The thief was Saved because it was not possible for him to do anything else. Jesus did not command him to do anything. But YOU are commanded by Jesus to DO something, because unlike the thief, YOU ARE ABLE TO DO WHAT HE COMMANDS. Big difference. Even though the Faith ONLY believers would argue with that TRUTH, because they like to compare themselves with the thief on the cross, when really there is NO comparison whatsoever.
A person gets Saved in a Church, walks outside and gets hit by a car and is killed. He too, had no works whatsoever and is SAVED Just like the thief he had no opportunity to Love One Another. But if you are Saved and living, YOU do have opportunity to Love One Another, which makes you different than the thief.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[FreeNChrist]

And now i am being accused of thinking i am God. Hurtful accusations. And notice who likes these types of accusations against others.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Playing the victim seems to be a common tactic for some. If you are the producer of the Spirits good fruit, as you said in that post, that would make you God. Nice try though. Well, not really.

 

[FreeNChrist]

The Thief is a good example of N.T. Salvation. Any person even on their death bed can GET SAVED, that is not, nor ever was the issue. The issue is, what do you do once you ARE SAVED.

The thief on the cross was unable to get baptised, to produce any good fruits. Those who GET SAVED on their death beds are likewise in the same boat. Unable to DO anything.

The Thief would not be able to read the Word of God either. That is the difference between thief and YOU. They are not able to live by the Word of God, but you are able to do so. We who are able, read that we are to DO what Jesus commands us to do. The thief and those with deathbed Salvations CAN'T DO what Jesus commands. But YOU can do what He commands, and that is the issue that i bring up over and over again. The thief was Saved because it was not possible for him to do anything else. Jesus did not command him to do anything. But YOU are commanded by Jesus to DO something, because unlike the thief, YOU ARE ABLE TO DO WHAT HE COMMANDS. Big difference. Even though the Faith ONLY believers would argue with that TRUTH, because they like to compare themselves with the thief on the cross, when really there is NO comparison whatsoever.
A person gets Saved in a Church, walks outside and gets hit by a car and is killed. He too, had no works whatsoever and is SAVED Just like the thief he had no opportunity to Love One Another. But if you are Saved and living, YOU do have opportunity to Love One Another, which makes you different than the thief.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Works salvation by any other name is still works salvation. You are just playing word games with yourself and hoping others will fail to see it.

 

[dcontroversal]

The Thief is a good example of N.T. Salvation. Any person even on their death bed can GET SAVED, that is not, nor ever was the issue. The issue is, what do you do once you ARE SAVED.

The thief on the cross was unable to get baptised, to produce any good fruits. Those who GET SAVED on their death beds are likewise in the same boat. Unable to DO anything.

The Thief would not be able to read the Word of God either. That is the difference between thief and YOU. They are not able to live by the Word of God, but you are able to do so. We who are able, read that we are to DO what Jesus commands us to do. The thief and those with deathbed Salvations CAN'T DO what Jesus commands. But YOU can do what He commands, and that is the issue that i bring up over and over again. The thief was Saved because it was not possible for him to do anything else. Jesus did not command him to do anything. But YOU are commanded by Jesus to DO something, because unlike the thief, YOU ARE ABLE TO DO WHAT HE COMMANDS. Big difference. Even though the Faith ONLY believers would argue with that TRUTH, because they like to compare themselves with the thief on the cross, when really there is NO comparison whatsoever.
A person gets Saved in a Church, walks outside and gets hit by a car and is killed. He too, had no works whatsoever and is SAVED Just like the thief he had no opportunity to Love One Another. But if you are Saved and living, YOU do have opportunity to Love One Another, which makes you different than the thief.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Saved by faith is saved by faith for one and all...GOD is no respecter of persons.....

 

[Seohce]

Point one......the Pharisees were self righteous spiritually blind men who believed, taught and pushed a working for salvation.....works do not save and or keep saved...end of story....

NOW FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME SAID (probably) NO ONE who believes salvation by grace thru faith has ever said, implied or taught that believers are not to bear fruit or produce works........

QUIT implying it, because when YOU imply this...it makes you out to be a false witness.....go read the 7 things God hates in Proverbs 6

Do you not imply that those who do good works have no faith? I only believe in the truth, whatever is not in the scriptures is a man-made doctrine & a vain worship( mark 7:7)

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD (James 2:14-26)
WORKS WITHOUT FAITH IS SIN (Rom 14:23)
FAITH WITHOUT LOVE IS NOTHING (1cor 13:2)
FAITH WITHOUT HOPE IS NOT FAITH & HAS NO HOPE AT ALL (Heb 11:1,rom 8:24)
FAITH WORKETH IN LOVE (Gal 5:6)
We are saved according to God's grace & mercy(eph 2:8-9, titus 1:6) thru FAITH THAT WORKETH IN LOVE (Gal 5:6) because it is God who works in us(phil 2:13, rom 8:28) & God is LOVE(1 john 4:8 & 16)
Mat 21:43-44 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will PRODUCE ITS FRUITS. He who falls on this stone will be cut to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”

Luke 17:7-10 “Suppose one of you had a SERVANT plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, ‘COME ALONG NOW SIT DOWN & EAT’? Would he not rather say, ‘Prepare my supper, GET YOURSELF READY and wait on me while I eat and drink; AFTER that you may eat and drink’? Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘WE ARE UNWORTHY SERVANTS; we have only done our duty.’”
A TRUE CHRISTIAN ALTHOUGH CONSIDERED AS A CHILD OF GOD IS STILL A SERVANT OF GOD AND MUST NOT EVEN THINK OTHERWISE BECAUSE GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED(gal 6:7) SOME CHRISTIANS HOWEVER, BECAUSE OF THEIR WRONG NOTION OF SALVATION, BECAME SO CONFIDENT THAT THEY BELIEVED THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD IS NO LONGER NECESSARY AND ARE JUST “DEAD WORKS”. MAYBE THEY THINK THAT THEY ARE ALREADY “WORTHY” TO SIT ON GOD’S TABLE BECAUSE OF THEIR FAITH(VOID OF WORKS), EVEN WITHOUT GOD’S APPROVAL.

WE ARE THE FELLOW WORKERS OF GOD(1cor 3:9), THE BODY OF CHRIST(eph 5:23) WHO DO HIS WORKS HERE ON EARTH(john 14:12, 1cor ch.12). ANYONE WHO CLAIMS TO BE A PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST OR THE VINE BUT CONDEMNS GOOD WORKS & EVEN TEACHES AS A DOCTRINE THAT FAITH PLUS (GOOD) WORKS IS A LIE FROM HELL, IS HIMSELF CONDEMNED. HE IS ARROGANT & BOASTFUL YET UNDERSTANDS NOTHING. Titus 1:16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are DETESTABLE, DISOBEDIENT and UNFIT for doing anything good.

1 Timothy 4:2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

Jude 1:16,19 These men are GRUMBLERS and FAULTFINDERS; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage. THESE ARE THE MEN WHO DIVIDE YOU, who follow mere natural instinct and DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT.

***GOD PUTS A BELIEVER INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST TO DO HIS WORKS OF SALVATION,
(1 Timothy 4:16) Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, YOU WILL SAVE BOTH YOURSELF AND YOUR HEARERS.

1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

1 Corinthians 12:27-28 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it...

Ephesians 4:11-13 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for WORKS OF SERVICE so that the BODY OF CHRIST may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

SINCE IT IS THAT SAME BODY WHOM HE IS GOING TO SAVE-- (Ephesians 5:23)” For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which HE IS THE SAVIOR.”
--THE OBEDIENT & FAITHFUL SERVANTS OF GOD. (Matthew 25:21) “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
ONCE HE’S INSIDE THE BODY(THE VINE) HE IS EXPECTED TO DO GOOD WORKS(PRODUCE FRUIT)
OTHERWISE HE WILL BE CUT OFF.
Romans 11:18,20-23 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. Granted. But they were broken off because of UNBELIEF, and you stand by FAITH. Do not be arrogant, but BE AFRAID. For if God did not spare the natural branches, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU either. CONSIDER therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE in his kindness. Otherwise, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

(mat 18:8-9))If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

1 Corinthians 5:6-13 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast... I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that YOU MUST NOT ASSOCIATE with ANYONE WHO CALLS HIMSELF A BROTHER but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the CHURCH(body of Christ)? ARE YOU NOT TO JUDGE THOSE INSIDE? God will judge those outside. “EXPEL THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOU.”

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. ALWAYS GIVE YOURSELVES FULLY TO THE WORK OF THE LORD, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

1 Peter 2:16 Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as SERVANTS OF GOD.

 

[dcontroversal]

Do you not imply that those who do good works have no faith? I only believe in the truth, whatever is not in the scriptures is a man-made doctrine & a vain worship( mark 7:7)

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD (James 2:14-26)
WORKS WITHOUT FAITH IS SIN (Rom 14:23)
FAITH WITHOUT LOVE IS NOTHING (1cor 13:2)
FAITH WITHOUT HOPE IS NOT FAITH & HAS NO HOPE AT ALL (Heb 11:1,rom 8:24)
FAITH WORKETH IN LOVE (Gal 5:6)
We are saved according to God's grace & mercy(eph 2:8-9, titus 1:6) thru FAITH THAT WORKETH IN LOVE (Gal 5:6) because it is God who works in us(phil 2:13, rom 8:28) & God is LOVE(1 john 4:8 & 16)
Mat 21:43-44 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will PRODUCE ITS FRUITS. He who falls on this stone will be cut to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”

Luke 17:7-10 “Suppose one of you had a SERVANT plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, ‘COME ALONG NOW SIT DOWN & EAT’? Would he not rather say, ‘Prepare my supper, GET YOURSELF READY and wait on me while I eat and drink; AFTER that you may eat and drink’? Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘WE ARE UNWORTHY SERVANTS; we have only done our duty.’”
A TRUE CHRISTIAN ALTHOUGH CONSIDERED AS A CHILD OF GOD IS STILL A SERVANT OF GOD AND MUST NOT EVEN THINK OTHERWISE BECAUSE GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED(gal 6:7) SOME CHRISTIANS HOWEVER, BECAUSE OF THEIR WRONG NOTION OF SALVATION, BECAME SO CONFIDENT THAT THEY BELIEVED THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD IS NO LONGER NECESSARY AND ARE JUST “DEAD WORKS”. MAYBE THEY THINK THAT THEY ARE ALREADY “WORTHY” TO SIT ON GOD’S TABLE BECAUSE OF THEIR FAITH(VOID OF WORKS), EVEN WITHOUT GOD’S APPROVAL.

WE ARE THE FELLOW WORKERS OF GOD(1cor 3:9), THE BODY OF CHRIST(eph 5:23) WHO DO HIS WORKS HERE ON EARTH(john 14:12, 1cor ch.12). ANYONE WHO CLAIMS TO BE A PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST OR THE VINE BUT CONDEMNS GOOD WORKS & EVEN TEACHES AS A DOCTRINE THAT FAITH PLUS (GOOD) WORKS IS A LIE FROM HELL, IS HIMSELF CONDEMNED. HE IS ARROGANT & BOASTFUL YET UNDERSTANDS NOTHING. Titus 1:16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are DETESTABLE, DISOBEDIENT and UNFIT for doing anything good.

1 Timothy 4:2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

Jude 1:16,19 These men are GRUMBLERS and FAULTFINDERS; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage. THESE ARE THE MEN WHO DIVIDE YOU, who follow mere natural instinct and DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT.

***GOD PUTS A BELIEVER INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST TO DO HIS WORKS OF SALVATION,
(1 Timothy 4:16) Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, YOU WILL SAVE BOTH YOURSELF AND YOUR HEARERS.

1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

1 Corinthians 12:27-28 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it...

Ephesians 4:11-13 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for WORKS OF SERVICE so that the BODY OF CHRIST may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

SINCE IT IS THAT SAME BODY WHOM HE IS GOING TO SAVE-- (Ephesians 5:23)” For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which HE IS THE SAVIOR.”
--THE OBEDIENT & FAITHFUL SERVANTS OF GOD. (Matthew 25:21) “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
ONCE HE’S INSIDE THE BODY(THE VINE) HE IS EXPECTED TO DO GOOD WORKS(PRODUCE FRUIT)
OTHERWISE HE WILL BE CUT OFF.
Romans 11:18,20-23 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. Granted. But they were broken off because of UNBELIEF, and you stand by FAITH. Do not be arrogant, but BE AFRAID. For if God did not spare the natural branches, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU either. CONSIDER therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE in his kindness. Otherwise, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

(mat 18:8-9))If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

1 Corinthians 5:6-13 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast... I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that YOU MUST NOT ASSOCIATE with ANYONE WHO CALLS HIMSELF A BROTHER but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the CHURCH(body of Christ)? ARE YOU NOT TO JUDGE THOSE INSIDE? God will judge those outside. “EXPEL THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOU.”

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. ALWAYS GIVE YOURSELVES FULLY TO THE WORK OF THE LORD, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

1 Peter 2:16 Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as SERVANTS OF GOD.

For the 1,000,001 time....everything you stated is a product of the FAITH one already possesses in Christ.

ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD and it was PUT to his account for RIGHTEOUSNESS....HE had faith long before he was circumcised, offered Isaac and did any works for GOD....

WAKE UP

ONE cannot do a thing for God, understand the word of GOD, or spiritually judge the word of GOD unless they are BORN AGIN FROM ABOVE (SAVED THRU FAITH) <---everything righteous and biblical that comes after are the results of FAITH ALREADY POSSESSED!

 

[Seohce]

Point one......the Pharisees were self righteous spiritually blind men who believed, taught and pushed a working for salvation.....works do not save and or keep saved...end of story....

NOW FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME SAID (probably) NO ONE who believes salvation by grace thru faith has ever said, implied or taught that believers are not to bear fruit or produce works........

QUIT implying it, because when YOU imply this...it makes you out to be a false witness.....go read the 7 things God hates in Proverbs 6

Do you not imply that those who do good works have no faith? I only believe in the truth, whatever is not in the scriptures is a man-made doctrine & a vain worship( mark 7:7)

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD (James 2:14-26)
WORKS WITHOUT FAITH IS SIN (Rom 14:23)
FAITH WITHOUT LOVE IS NOTHING (1cor 13:2)
FAITH WITHOUT HOPE IS NOT FAITH & HAS NO HOPE AT ALL (Heb 11:1,rom 8:24)
FAITH WORKETH IN LOVE (Gal 5:6)
We are saved according to God's grace & mercy(eph 2:8-9, titus 3:5) thru FAITH THAT WORKETH IN LOVE (Gal 5:6) because it is God who works in us(phil 2:13, rom 8:28) & God is LOVE(1 john 4:8 & 16)
Mat 21:43-44 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will PRODUCE ITS FRUITS. He who falls on this stone will be cut to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”

Luke 17:7-10 “Suppose one of you had a SERVANT plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, ‘COME ALONG NOW SIT DOWN & EAT’? Would he not rather say, ‘Prepare my supper, GET YOURSELF READY and wait on me while I eat and drink; AFTER that you may eat and drink’? Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘WE ARE UNWORTHY SERVANTS; we have only done our duty.’”
A TRUE CHRISTIAN ALTHOUGH CONSIDERED AS A CHILD OF GOD IS STILL A SERVANT OF GOD AND MUST NOT EVEN THINK OTHERWISE BECAUSE GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED(gal 6:7) SOME CHRISTIANS HOWEVER, BECAUSE OF THEIR WRONG NOTION OF SALVATION, BECAME SO CONFIDENT THAT THEY BELIEVED THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD IS NO LONGER NECESSARY AND ARE JUST “DEAD WORKS”. MAYBE THEY THINK THAT THEY ARE ALREADY “WORTHY” TO SIT ON GOD’S TABLE BECAUSE OF THEIR FAITH(VOID OF WORKS), EVEN WITHOUT GOD’S APPROVAL.

WE ARE THE FELLOW WORKERS OF GOD(1cor 3:9), THE BODY OF CHRIST(eph 5:23) WHO DO HIS WORKS HERE ON EARTH(john 14:12, 1cor ch.12). ANYONE WHO CLAIMS TO BE A PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST OR THE VINE BUT CONDEMNS GOOD WORKS & EVEN TEACHES AS A DOCTRINE THAT FAITH PLUS (GOOD) WORKS IS A LIE FROM HELL, IS HIMSELF CONDEMNED. HE IS ARROGANT & BOASTFUL YET UNDERSTANDS NOTHING. Titus 1:16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are DETESTABLE, DISOBEDIENT and UNFIT for doing anything good.

1 Timothy 4:2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

Jude 1:16,19 These men are GRUMBLERS and FAULTFINDERS; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage. THESE ARE THE MEN WHO DIVIDE YOU, who follow mere natural instinct and DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT.

***GOD PUTS A BELIEVER INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST TO DO HIS WORKS OF SALVATION,
(1 Timothy 4:16) Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, YOU WILL SAVE BOTH YOURSELF AND YOUR HEARERS.

1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

1 Corinthians 12:27-28 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it...

Ephesians 4:11-13 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for WORKS OF SERVICE so that the BODY OF CHRIST may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

SINCE IT IS THAT SAME BODY WHOM HE IS GOING TO SAVE-- (Ephesians 5:23)” For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which HE IS THE SAVIOR.”
--THE OBEDIENT & FAITHFUL SERVANTS OF GOD. (Matthew 25:21) “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
ONCE HE’S INSIDE THE BODY(THE VINE) HE IS EXPECTED TO DO GOOD WORKS(PRODUCE FRUIT)
OTHERWISE HE WILL BE CUT OFF.
Romans 11:18,20-23 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. Granted. But they were broken off because of UNBELIEF, and you stand by FAITH. Do not be arrogant, but BE AFRAID. For if God did not spare the natural branches, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU either. CONSIDER therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE in his kindness. Otherwise, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

(mat 18:8-9))If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

1 Corinthians 5:6-13 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast... I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that YOU MUST NOT ASSOCIATE with ANYONE WHO CALLS HIMSELF A BROTHER but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the CHURCH(body of Christ)? ARE YOU NOT TO JUDGE THOSE INSIDE? God will judge those outside. “EXPEL THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOU.”

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. ALWAYS GIVE YOURSELVES FULLY TO THE WORK OF THE LORD, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

1 Peter 2:16 Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as SERVANTS OF GOD.

 

[dcontroversal]

For the 1,000,001 time....everything you stated is a product of the FAITH one already possesses in Christ.

ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD and it was PUT to his account for RIGHTEOUSNESS....HE had faith long before he was circumcised, offered Isaac and did any works for GOD....

WAKE UP

ONE cannot do a thing for God, understand the word of GOD, or spiritually judge the word of GOD unless they are BORN AGIN FROM ABOVE (SAVED THRU FAITH) <---everything righteous and biblical that comes after are the results of FAITH ALREADY POSSESSED!

 

[mailmandan]

Works salvation by any other name is still works salvation. You are just playing word games with yourself and hoping others will fail to see it.

You hit the nail on the head!

 

[Bladerunner]

I just posted this in another... Abraham believed was Counted righteousness then did a work to show or prove his faith... Circumcisions.. You can't throw out works.. they prove your faith

TO WHO?????, The Lord Jesus knows your heart inside out. I believe in Him and have nothing to prove.

 

[PeterJens]

TO WHO?????, The Lord Jesus knows your heart inside out. I believe in Him and have nothing to prove.

There is only one proof of faith, action. Without action there is no faith, and a faith that produces
action will always produce action, so inaction proves no faith.

 

[mailmandan]

What i have said above neither condemns nor exalts myself in any way. i forgive you for the false accusation against me.

Are you really that delusional?

That is a True Statement. The Bible also, which you seem to ignore, teaches that if you believe in Him, you DO what He says.

I don't ignore what the Bible says about believers doing what Jesus says. There is a difference between doing what the Lord says in order to become saved and doing what the Lord says after we have been saved through faith.

There are many verses which plainly teach what it takes to be SAVED, yet it seems you pick and choose which of those many verses you want to believe in, all the while disregarding all the other verses.

Actually, I simply harmonize Scripture with Scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion about what it takes to be saved. You distort and pervert passages of Scripture in an effort to "patch together" your "works based" false gospel.

You believe and quote several verses which teach that believing in Him you are Saved, but it is not likely you will ever quote this verse to anyone, because you don't believe it.

We are saved through believing in Him (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5 etc..). Obviously, you don't believe these verses because you have already stated that believing in Him is NOT ENOUGH.

Heb_5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

This verse teaches if you OBEY HIM, then you are SAVED. But you see, this verse you refuse to accept, because you choose to believe only the verses which teach believing is enough. So then you pick and choose which verses to believe and hold on to, and which verses you will not believe.

Believing is enough, as I already showed you in multiple verses. Now in regards to Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many works salvationists (including Roman Catholics and Mormons) use this verse to try and support salvation by works. Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, only believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so-called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on their works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him

What i believe is dung, and irrelevant. i am nobody at all, filthy rags i am for sure. Nor do i understand to this day why God chose me to teach His Truths to this generation.

Sinless perfection and salvation by works is not from God and is not the truth. You've been duped.

i am not worthy, nor do i feel that. i don't have to describe, Scriptures plainly does that.

Scriptures does plainly teach the truth, for those who have ears to hear. 1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You say believing is enough. Scriptures teach those who OBEY Him have Eternal Life, therefore, according to plain and clear Scriptures, believing is NOT enough.

Believing is clearly enough or else multiple verses in the Bible would be a lie. God forbid! (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13; etc..).

Faith ONLY is dead, brother.

What James means by "faith only" is an empty profession of faith, not genuine faith. Works salvationists fail to grasp this. In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith.So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *Please listen closely - James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

Are you now going to say it is me that teaches that also, when again, it is what Scriptures teach, not me?

I see that you dodged my question, so I'll ask it again. Please describe what YOU believe it means to "believe in Him" in order to become saved.

 

[mailmandan]

Tell me, when is a person actually Saved, the moment they believe, or the moment they call (DOING) upon His name?

A person is saved the moment they believe in Him/believe the gospel. When you call upon the name of the Lord it is that you trust in Him to come to your aid. Inherent in your calling is the essential faith that He can and will save you. So, in essence, we call upon the name of the Lord in trust that He will save us. Those who have been saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8) are not still in need of calling upon the name of Lord in order to become saved. You seem very confused about this.

i person sits in a pew in Church, he hears the message of Jesus, and he then BELIEVES.

What exactly does that person BELIEVE (according to you) in order to become saved?

Is he Saved then at the believing in Jesus or does He HAVE TO DO something after He believes? Doesn't He have to call upon the name of Jesus?

We are saved the moment that we believe in Jesus for salvation. There is nothing further that we must do after we believe in order to become saved and those who believe have already called upon the name of the Lord.

Doesn't he have to confess his sins? Doesn't he have to pray and repent of his past sins? All these things are what a person DOES AFTER they believe, all these things are Works AFTER they believe in their hearts.

No, a person who believes and is saved has already confessed their sins and repented in the process of choosing to believe in Christ for salvation. These are not works for salvation after one believes and is saved. You are very confused.

And now you say to me there is nothing required AFTER one believes. You do not understand the TRUTH in this matter.

We confess our sins and acknowledge our need for Jesus as Savior in the process of repentance (changing our mind) and choosing to believe in Jesus as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation in order to become saved. It's YOU who does not understand the TRUTH in this matter. It's also obvious that you don't truly BELIEVE.

You think believing is enough, and in that logic, that person who merely believes sitting in his pew at Church is SAVED and doesn't have to DO anything at all, no works, not getting up, no calling on the name of the Lord, no confessing.
Believing is NOT enough. i don't say that. Scriptures teaches that.

Your argument is based on faulty human logic that stems from a "works salvation" mindset. Whether a person is sitting in a pew at Church or sitting on the couch at home reading his Bible, the moment that person BELIEVES, he is saved before he accomplishes any works. BTY we are not saved by works (Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9: Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). Such a person who believes and is saved has already confessed his sins and need for Jesus to save him when he repented and chose to believe in Jesus for salvation. If you truly BELIEVED then you would understand that.

 

[fredoheaven]

Are you really that delusional?

I don't ignore what the Bible says about believers doing what Jesus says. There is a difference between doing what the Lord says in order to become saved and doing what the Lord says after we have been saved through faith.

Actually, I simply harmonize Scripture with Scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion about what it takes to be saved. You distort and pervert passages of Scripture in an effort to "patch together" your "works based" false gospel.

We are saved through believing in Him (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5 etc..). Obviously, you don't believe these verses because you have already stated that believing in Him is NOT ENOUGH.

Believing is enough, as I already showed you in multiple verses. Now in regards to Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many works salvationists (including Roman Catholics and Mormons) use this verse to try and support salvation by works. Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, only believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so-called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on their works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him

Sinless perfection and salvation by works is not from God and is not the truth. You've been duped.

Scriptures does plainly teach the truth, for those who have ears to hear. 1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Believing is clearly enough or else multiple verses in the Bible would be a lie. God forbid! (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13; etc..).

What James means by "faith only" is an empty profession of faith, not genuine faith. Works salvationists fail to grasp this. In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith.So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *Please listen closely - James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

I see that you dodged my question, so I'll ask it again. Please describe what YOU believe it means to "believe in Him" in order to become saved.

Amen! and the justification by faith in James is simply stressing as validation before men

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2: 24 Ye seethen how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

God bless

 

[mailmandan]

So let me understand your logic, because i believe what the above verse says, my colors are being shown. Praise God.

You believe that Mark 16:16 teaches that we MUST be baptized in order to be saved, yet Jesus said he who does not believe will be condemned, not whoever is not baptized will be condemned. Do you believe what Jesus said in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25.26? Obviously not, since you keep saying that believing is not enough to be saved.

*Once again: He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned." If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. *Notice how I harmonize Scripture with Scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion.

Your colors also are being revealed, you do not believe that inspired by God verse, therefore let us see how you will explain away that verse to mean something entirely different from what it actually says, let us see shall we:

I did not explain away that verse and I also did not isolate the verse half of the verse, build doctrine on it, and IGNORE the second half of the verse and I also did not IGNORE what Jesus said in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) as you did.

[/B]And there you have it. The verse says you must be baptized, but YOU say "Nope, don't have to be, just have to believe" Does anyone else see how this is illogical.

Where did the verse say "must be baptized?" The verse simply says "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) and Jesus clarified the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned." Jesus did not say whoever is not baptized will be condemned. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. Just ask the thief on the cross.

God said to me "If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures then what you believe is WRONG"

Guess what? You're wrong. What you believe does contradict Scripture.

i believe Scriptures which teach. He that believes in Jesus AND is baptized shall be Saved. i believe that because that is what Scriptures teach.

He who believes in Jesus will be saved (John 3:15,16,18). He who believes in Jesus and is baptized will also be saved. He who believes in Jesus and is unable to get water baptized (like the thief on the cross) will also be saved. He who does not believe and is baptized will not be saved (because he who does not believe will be condemned) and there are many people that are mixed up in various false religions and cults who have been water baptized, but they don't truly BELIEVE.

i do not believe mailmandan which teaches what he says above, making void that Holy Inspired Word of God to fit his own doctrine. Just look above and see the PROOF how he changes what the Word of God plainly says to mean something entirely different, and does so to make it fit into what he thinks is the TRUTH.^i^

That statement is the epitome of irony. You are not fooling me or any other genuine believers on CC.

 

[mailmandan]

All who believe are baptised. If you haven't been, then you haven't believed.

Amen! It logically follows that we get baptized after we believe, but if you are on your death bed (like the thief on the cross) and are unable to get water baptized before you died, then you will still be saved because you BELIEVE (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; 16:31) which is in harmony with Mark 16:16(b)...but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Certainly, water baptism is an important act of obedience. Any one professing to believe in Jesus and yet refusing to be water baptized is of questionable sincerity. It's unthinkable that anyone would truly believe in Jesus and yet refuse to be water baptized. I personally could not wait to get water baptized after I received Christ thorough faith several years ago! Notice, however, those who Jesus said would be condemned: "whoever does not believe." No mention was made of not being baptized. The emphasis is on unbelief in relation to condemnation, not a lack of baptism.

 

[mailmandan]

You are Saved by Faith and Works.

False. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Tell me, in order to be SAVED, must a person confess? Must they repent? Must they call upon the Lord? All of these things are Works.

These are not works for salvation after we BELIEVE. A person will confess they are a sinner in need of a Savior when they come to repentance. We call upon the name of the Lord when we choose to place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ for salvation. You have this all mixed up.

As to you comment on me being a works salvationist. i know not what that is. But if it is a {Faith + Works = Salvation} belief, Than i most certainly am.

We are not saved by faith + works and a works salvationist is certainly what you are. So tell me something. How many works must you accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save you? Since believing in Him isn't enough for you, which is really saying that Christ's finished work of redemption isn't enough and is IN-sufficient to save you.

But if it is a {Works = Salvation} belief, Than i am most certainly NOT.

Sugar coated double talk.

Do you have ears and not hear what i have said to you repeatedly? i 100% believe all those verses which teaching Believing to be Saved. What you fail to understand, is we are talking about all the other verses which plainly teach ________ to be SAVED also.

There are no further requirements to become saved after we believe the gospel and are saved.

Confessing is not believing now is it. Scriptures teach that you must confess in order to be Saved. Therefore that in and of itself is a WORK, which for some reason you seem to be unable to grasp.

Must confess what? We confess our sins as we come to repentance, which precedes saving faith in Christ. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10). This is not a work for salvation, but an expression of faith, which you are unable to grasp and there is a reason for that.

i believe all those verses 100% which teach Believing to be Saved.

No you don't because you "add" additional requirements (works) that must be accomplished in order to become saved AFTER we believe and are saved.

The difference between you and i, (it seems) is you ONLY believe those verses and not believe all the other verses which plainly teach believing ONLY is not enough. That is the problem.

I believe all of those verses, but through bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics, you are misinterpreting those verses and claiming that believing in Jesus is not enough to be saved, when the Bible plainly says it is (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..).

James plainly teaches that Faith without Works is dead.

Which does not mean that faith is dead UNTIL it produces works or that works are the source of life in faith. To say that faith is dead UNTIL it produces works is like saying that a tree is dead UNTIL it produces fruit. A dead faith does not produce works in order to become a living faith, but BECAUSE it's a living faith; just as a dead tree does not produce fruit in order to become a living tree, but BECAUSE it's a living tree. Works salvationists have this backwards. They have the tail wagging the dog, the cart before the horse.

You can't or won't believe that, because that does not line up with the Truth that you hold on to, does it.

I believe James and faith that does not produce any works at all demonstrates that it's a dead faith and not genuine faith. Simple! *Once again, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works and James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). *Perfect Harmony*

So this is yet another verse that you will need to explain away in order to feel good about yourself not believing it.

I have explained nothing away. You just don't get it. The natural man does not understand.

i mean if it means something else other than what it says, then that is what you need to do, right. God forbid you have to change your belief to fit Scriptures. NO, much easier to change Scriptures to fit what you believe. Hence the reason we have over 120 different denominations in the Christian Faith alone. Scriptures teach to : Have one mind, to : Think the same thing. NO not this generation let us change this verse or that verse to fit into what we believe is the TRUTH. much weeping and gnashing of teeth. It would be better for a person to change what they believe to line up with Scriptures, than to change the Word of God to line up with YOUR belief.

You need to take a hard look in the mirror.

What i seen in all that you say here, is a brother desperately trying to change Scriptures and what it plainly and clearly says into something that will line up with what YOU believe.

What I have done is properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine. It's you who is desperate to make Scripture say what YOU want it to say.

Faith without works is dead. is so simple that children could understand it. But for those who don't believe it, well what is their options
1) ignore the verse.
2) interpret the verse to mean something else
3) go to the Hebrew and Greek and see if they can change the meanings of each one of the words
4) Do what Mailmandan has done above.

I didn't change the meaning of anything. I thoroughly explained those verses in James chapter 2 in post #2462 and I properly harmonized Scripture with Scripture (Romans 4:2-3). You continue to ignore the context of James 2 and you also fail to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture. Unfortunately, you just don't have ears to hear the truth as you desperately cling to your "works based" false gospel. You need to meditate on 1 Corinthians 2:11-14 and 2 Corinthians 4:3,4. You are completely deceived, but I will continue to pray for you.

 

[JohnTalmid]

If you are saved you where saved through first hearing the word. After hearing the word it was mixed with your belief and your belief leads you either one way or another. Truth is if your eyes have been filled with light because of the Faith of Messiah you will guard the commands of YHWH out of love of the truth. Thus faith is purfected through God's gift, namely the works of the law created for your building up in the faith. Though these good works for mankind are meant for our Instruction In righteousness they don't make you rightous that too is a gift of Elohim.

 

[JIMBO43]

I have suspicion that there are several puppet accounts on this thread that account for an army of workers. Something doesn't sit well....

Lets get one thing straight,,,, its you and your followers who label believers ,,,workers.

I had never herd of the term works based believers untill i met a load of baptists on the internet from the usa...

I see that for a lot of usa people there good people,, with a one of the biggest christian population in the world,,, if not the biggest... (now dont fill your boots just yet.)

BUT THERES ALSO THIS MENTALITY OF WHERE UNTOUCHABLE.......LOL

Which is pretty eveident in the way in which you talk to britIsh believers...

Lets look at some Facts....

Fact great britain colonised the usa... and grew its huge colonies... so much so that took over them with 13 of them.. and a lot bigger than your 51 states which was all you had untill us guys showed up..

Now that said your first president George washingtons parent where British..(did you know that ?...)

Now the fact is for a small island the uk to colonise 3 quarters of the world is quite an achievement... just think about this and the achievement us brits achieved...


Fact we did through hard work and perservernece.....


Perseverence is also something that saints do... They sit paitiently waiting for people like you to see the light...which im hoping by time ive finished with my next responce you may just have a eureka moment,,, and maybe with a bit of luck you might even commend works

 

[JIMBO43]

For the 1,000,001 time....everything you stated is a product of the FAITH one already possesses in Christ.

ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD and it was PUT to his account for RIGHTEOUSNESS....HE had faith long before he was circumcised, offered Isaac and did any works for GOD....

WAKE UP

ONE cannot do a thing for God, understand the word of GOD, or spiritually judge the word of GOD unless they are BORN AGIN FROM ABOVE (SAVED THRU FAITH) <---everything righteous and biblical that comes after are the results of FAITH ALREADY POSSESSED!

Ok so lets looK at this....you say now that our works are something that belong to christ... and its something you anyways........ok .... so if this was true then why does christ say you must continualy do works to be a true christian...(deciple christian equals same thing...

And save ya dictionary its not going to save cause it full of diffrent concepts of beliefs...