Not By Works

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Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
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I do harmonize Scriptures.

Revelation 3:2 is written to individual churches. Candlestick is the light the church has. I'm sure you've seen many churches that lost their candlestick in the community. But even more importantly is that it's a prophetic book. It's allegory, which means we don't use Revelation to reinterpret clear Scripture. We use clear Scripture to interpret Revelation.

Work out salvation with fear in trembling... but you can't stop there, keep reading... BECAUSE it is God who works within you... your work is agreeing with His work. He prepared the good works for us. He designed is for good works, but we must GROW UP in the knowledge of Him.

Salvation isn't a reward. It's a gift. Rewards are different we receive those at the Bema seat of judgment. Notice in Revelation that the kings throw their CROWNS down at His feet.

And finally even IF Revelation is talking about eternal life, which I don't believe it fully is, the transformed state of the believer is because of their faith not their good works.

A lot of people believe God can save them from eternal life, but ignore the present reality that we are now a new creation created to desire the things of God. And when people don't? It's because they've forgotten who they are. Not because they lost the Spirit of God. He never leaves us or forsakes us. Ever.


Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

If a person that is saved will do works,and it is not to keep them right for salvation,but because they are saved,then why did those that were saved lacking in works,and were fallen in that state,and Jesus told them to repent,and another their works were not found right before God,and to repent,or else Jesus would go against them.

People need to harmonize scriptures,and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,because if you fall short by your outward actions,and thoughts,then your connection with God has been broken,unless you repent,but some people hold unto sin the entire time,and think they are right with God,and outward actions,and thoughts,does not change that.

Some people will not harmonize scriptures because there is a certain way that they like to hear the Bible.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,137
216
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[TABLE="class: passage-cols"]
[TR]
[TD="class: passage-col col-xs-12 first last"]Matthew 22:36-40King James Version (KJV)

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.







I often say that love is a verb thanks to the above teaching.






[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 

Limey410v2

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2017
416
77
28
Grace!

Looks like you know how many times.....

So.
How many times did Jesus speak about salvation in the gospels?

Let's hear it.

Then tell me how many times He spoke about the Kingdom, how to get in it and how to stay there.

I asked Stone too, but she refuses to do this.
I think she doesn't like the answer.

How 'bout you???
Luke 19, 9-10 9And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Mark 8:35

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

 
Apr 30, 2016
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Ummm not the aorist tense it is the perfect tense we are speaking about.:confused:

He will not be looking up anything he is gone. I already know what he has taught me, he was an ordained minister.
sigh.
Oh my.

The AORIST perfect tense is the one that says that something COULD start in the PAST and continue into the future.

This is true IN SOME CASES, BUT NOT IN THE CASE OF BEING SAVED FOREVER because that doctrine is not biblical.


So you see, UG, we should really leave Greek alone.
If we could only all agree...
 
Apr 30, 2016
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Luke 19, 9-10 9And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Mark 8:35

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Okay Limey.

If you're here right now, and you tell me you're interested, I'll actually tell you the answer of how many times Jesus spoke about the two concepts...

But not unless you want to know.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
I repped you :)

Sorry Cee,

I saw before that u sent me some kind of message.... but i looked Everywhere​ ...and i have no idea where it is hehe (Damn noobs ^^")
 

Limey410v2

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2017
416
77
28
Okay Limey.

If you're here right now, and you tell me you're interested, I'll actually tell you the answer of how many times Jesus spoke about the two concepts...

But not unless you want to know.
I am always interested!
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,754
4,119
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You could order the book and have it sent to the U.S.
I'll have my son mail it to you.
This can be done by P.M.
Hi Fran...Thank you so much for that, i really appreciate it, thank you once again, will pm you...God is good, He always gives us a way, just a simple gesture can bring one to tears...xox...
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
Well said!

In 1 Co 13 Paul boiled all the good works down to ONE thing: Love.

We can do all the things you listed and more, but without love we gain nothing. No reward.

So that begs the question WHY do we love?

He loved us first. We abide in His love. He forgave us of much.

These truths produce true good works.

Not a single work saves us.

Not the meal you serve a homeless person at a soup kitchen.

Not the lawn you mow for an elderly neighbor.

Not the driveway you shovel in winter for an old lady who cannot do it herself.

Not the money you donate to charity.


NONE of these things will save you, or keep you saved.
 
Mar 7, 2016
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He clothed them as a covering for their sin, because their work of fig leaves did not cut it.

It was also a foreshadowing of being covered by the blood of Christ.
what comes out of the heart is what can be put into your heart... so for instance if you feed your child to much sugar he wil become obese..

if you feed your child satanic lies he will lie to..

if you feed your child love,, they will love you back..

if you feed your child hate they will hate back..

if you make your child hate theres agood chance they will hate..

if you make your child think there is no God,, they will believe that too..

must i go on. ?
 
Nov 22, 2015
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There is no such thing as an "aorist perfect tense".

There is an aorist tense and perfect tense. Two different tenses each describing a different action.

Quote:

Aorist Tense


The aorist is said to be "simple occurrence" or "summary occurrence", without regard for the amount of time taken to accomplish the action. This tense is also often referred to as the 'punctiliar' tense.

'Punctiliar' in this sense means 'viewed as a single, collective whole,' a "one-point-in-time" action, although it may actually take place over a period of time. In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense.

For example: "God...made us alive together with Christ." Eph 2:5

"He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus." Phil 1:6


Perfect Tense

The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect.

In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.

For example, Galatians 2:20 should be translated "I am in a present state of having been crucified with Christ," indicating that not only was I crucified with Christ in the past, but I am existing now in that present condition.

"...having been rooted and grounded in love," Eph 3:17

Unquote:

Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)
 
Nov 12, 2015
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Hi Stunned,

Actually the Pharisees were not above reproach. They only obeyed what they chose to obey to give the impression that they were obeying the law. They did easy things that could be faked to have an outward appearance of loving God and obeying Him.

Matthew 23:23-24

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

~ The law required tithing
which they did
~ The law required mercy, justice, faithfulness
which they did not do

Tithing is easy for anyone to do - outward appearance

Mercy, justice, faithfulness takes faith, the new birth (the faith of Abraham)

The epitome of hypocrisy is to tell others how to live, but not live it yourself.

This is one thing that they did correctly because Jesus told others to listen to them, so what they taught was good, but Jesus said don't do what they do. They didn't live what they preached.

The devoured widows houses
Made long prayers
They were great house cleaners
But full of robbery and self indulgence
They looked pretty on the outside
But their dead bones were hypocrisy and lawlessness

The pharisees wanted the praise of men, but didn't want the praise of God.

So what Jesus is saying is that we need more than an outward appearance, we need the inward living it out that can only come by the new birth (the faith of Abraham).

For us today, the faith of Abraham is the fulfillment of the mystery, Christ in you the hope of glory.

So what we teach, we need to be living the truth and not be like the Pharisee who says all the right and correct doctrines, teachings, but didn't live out the truth. The righteous requirements of the law were elusive to them because they lacked faith.

The question we need to ask ourselves is that now that we're in Christ are we walking out the truth for others to see?

Many here use the Pharisees as an example of those who promote works (obedience) after salvation.

It really judges both sides of the issue.

Those who promote obedience (works) after salvation ...... what's going on in their heart. Do they love and produce the fruits of righteousness? ..... those Jesus spoke of which is a life in Him where everything is birthed from love.

Those who promote grace, are they full of grace so that the grace is seen in how they walk out their life showing fruits of righteousness.....which again is living love towards others as fruit; it's lived out from the new man in Christ instead of the old man.

Those on both sides need to love in word and action. Is that going on in here? Loving one another is God's grace at work in the believer.

When we speak and disagree - are we motivated because we love the other person, or are we wanting to be right? are we angry? are we getting back because the other attacked us and hurt our feelings, our pride? do we think we know more? is knowledge puffing us up?

The Pharisees are a lesson for all of us here. Not one side over the other. They are an example for us all.

And for all of the posts, I think we all agree that Jesus is the way the truth the life. No man comes to the father except through the Son.

We all believe that we're saved by grace through faith. We all believe that works will follow those who believe, that we'll live a life of ongoing obedience to the Lord.

Most of us agree that we confess our sin and ask for God's forgiveness and He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We all believe that we're on a journey. Some of us are at different levels of maturity. So why are we beating up our own?

Those of us here, let's take the Lord's words seriously and ask ourself if we are living in hypocrisy or are we living the true grace of love towards others.

Disagreements are good and healthy. But the battling it out with put downs, belittling, name-calling, accusations, judgements and the like does not come from the Spirit of Christ.

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”1 John 4:7;
John 13:34-35

Yes. That's why I added: "(looking at things humanly."):)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,682
29,024
113
what comes out of the heart is what can be put into your heart... so for instance if you feed your child to much sugar he wil become obese..

if you feed your child satanic lies he will lie to..

if you feed your child love,, they will love you back..

if you feed your child hate they will hate back..

if you make your child hate theres agood chance they will hate..

if you make your child think there is no God,, they will believe that too..

must i go on. ?
What you could do, is acknowledge that you were wrong.
But that is not likely to happen, and you will carry on as usual.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
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Here is a post about Ephesians 2:8-9 that has spoken to me of the completed work of Christ for us.

It speaks of the "perfect tense" in regards to being saved by grace through faith when we believed the gospel message as can be seen in Eph. 1:13

Quote:

Eph 2:8~~
New American Standard Bible

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

The Believer's Study Bible writes that...

The full sense of the expression “you have been saved” is difficult to capture in English.

The Greek perfect tense emphasizes action initiated in the past, the effects of which continue into the present and beyond. Therefore, salvation has a moment of initiation in the past, but the results of that primary experience continue (Ed: See
Three Tenses of Salvation).

This is another evidence of the permanence of our salvation, a doctrine which is called the “eternal security of the believer.”
(Criswell, W A. Believer's Study Bible: New King James Version. 1991. Thomas Nelson)


Commenting on the significance of the tense of the two verbs "been" (present tense) and "saved" (perfect tense) Kenneth Wuest writes...

Not content with the details offered by the perfect tense, Paul uses a periphrastic construction (Ed note: a periphrasis is the use of a longer phrasing in place of a possible shorter form of expression = a roundabout way of expressing something.

In Greek it specifically means the use of a verb in any tense but aorist in combination with the verb eimi = to be as the auxiliary verb) consisting of the participle in the perfect tense and the verb of being in the present tense.

The perfect tense speaks of the existence of finished results in present time, whereas Paul wanted to express persistence of finished results through present time. So he borrows the durative aspect of the present tense verb to give persistence to the existing results.

The Expanded Translation reads:
By the grace have you been saved completely with the result that you are in a state of salvation which persists through present time.

Present time in this instance is always the time at which the reader reads his statement. The security of the believer could not have been expressed in stronger terms.


(Wuest, Kenneth - The Practical Use of the Greek New Testament - Part II: The Eloquence of Greek Tenses and Moods - Bibliotheca Sacra: A quarterly published by Dallas Theological Seminary. Volume 117. Issue 466. Page 142) (Theological Journal Subscription info) (List of 22 journals - 500 yrs of articles searchable by topic or verse! Incredible Online Resource!)


Here is the link from a former member's post.

Verse for "once saved always saved"?
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
This is where you need understanding.

We don't get eternal life by leaving Earth.

We get eternal life in Christ. Take a look at your Bible and do a search for the words "in Christ". THIS is a present reality not a future one. We are citizens of Heaven now, we are seated with God now, we are joined to His Spirit now, we abide in Him now, He came to give us life and life abundantly now, the same Spirit of life that raised Christ lives in us now.

And it is because we HAVE passed from death to LIFE. That we DISPLAY fruit from the Spirit. Fruit of the Spirit is the multi-sided fruit of Love. Notice it's not "fruits of the Spirit". Anything not of Love is NOT a good work. Because GOD is Love.

Oh... so why are you here on earth?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Thank you!!!!

Present tense -> progressive (durative) aspect
Aorist tense -> punctiliar (atomic) aspect
Perfect tense -> persistent state




There is no such thing as an "aorist perfect tense".

There is an aorist tense and perfect tense. Two different tenses each describing a different action.

Quote:

Aorist Tense


The aorist is said to be "simple occurrence" or "summary occurrence", without regard for the amount of time taken to accomplish the action. This tense is also often referred to as the 'punctiliar' tense.

'Punctiliar' in this sense means 'viewed as a single, collective whole,' a "one-point-in-time" action, although it may actually take place over a period of time. In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense.

For example: "God...made us alive together with Christ." Eph 2:5

"He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus." Phil 1:6


Perfect Tense

The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect.

In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.

For example, Galatians 2:20 should be translated "I am in a present state of having been crucified with Christ," indicating that not only was I crucified with Christ in the past, but I am existing now in that present condition.

"...having been rooted and grounded in love," Eph 3:17

Unquote:

Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)