Not By Works

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Dec 28, 2016
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To ad nauseam is the phrase "Don't need to listen to men!"

It's untrue, unbiblical and frankly naïve.
 
Jun 5, 2017
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I attend a non-denominational church that worships on Sunday because that's when Christ rose from the dead and they also understand that the weekly Sabbath day was always Saturday and keeping the Sabbath day with all it's rules and regulations (Exodus 16:23; 31:12-18; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21; 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13), was part of a covenant with Israel that is not applicable to Christians under the New Covenant. (Colossians 2:16,17)

Hello MMD

Do you know the difference between the ceremonial and Levitical laws of Moses which were Shadows of things to come pointing to Jesus and God's Law (10 commandments) which is forever and what their purposes are?

I am asking because most of the scriptures you quote refer to the annual feast, others have no relevance to the Sabbath and some refer to the civil laws of Israel which ceased at the Roman occupation and the death of Christ and the beginning of the NC.

Also, who according to God's Word is Israel in your view?

Also in your view are we free to steal, lie and commit adultery or break any other of God's commandment, according to your Church's teachings? If not why are you now free to break God's 4th commandment which is to Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy?

Also where in all of God's Word does it command us that God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday Holy in place of God's Sabbath commandment that Jesus and the apostles followed because they love God?

Do you know how the Sabbath commandment was changed from Saturday to Sunday and who officially changed it?

I am looking forward to talking scripture with you my friend. Waiting for your replies.

Look forward to your reply. Please lets talk scripture.......
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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What I'm against is for people in such groups as the SDA church who turn keeping the Sabbath day into a legalistic prescription for Christians under the New Covenant. There is an elderly man on my mail route who has tried to convince me that I MUST (or else) keep the weekly Sabbath on Saturday and often brags that he does. He has encouraged me to tell my employer that I cannot work on Saturday in order to keep the Sabbath day holy and even implied that those who don't will not make it to heaven. :rolleyes:

I have never once heard this man share the Gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) but he sure likes to talk about keeping the Saturday Sabbath day and those who worship God on Sunday will receive the mark of the beast. He is constantly slamming the Roman Catholic church for changing the Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday, but I understand the Sabbath day with all it's rules and regulations was Saturday and was part of a covenant with Israel that is not applicable to Christians under the New Covenant. Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

You can read some of the bizarre claims of the SDA church here - Bible Truth Versus Adventist Truth - Mark of the Beast
So you are really the Mailman then, great... Postman is what we call you here.


Well.. have you heard Him tell you that GOD said those that Love Him Keep His Commandments.. and that the Messiah taught us to Keep even the least? No one is to be a judge.. definitely be a doer like Christ taught.. GOD said He would write His Law on our heart and put hem in our mind.. all things are to be by Faith in Christ for that is the Power of GOD that keeps us.

I don't hold to those beliefs as such.. and truly believe to be under Grace at Liberty is for us to Love GOD and each other through our New Holy Spirit.

If we worship GOD in Spirit and Truth it is a way of life not a rigid set of religious rules imposed by man.. so the RC church could of made it difficult all those years ago for believers to Rest on Sabbath.. the day that we come together to meet for most is Sunday worldwide.. the SDA have took a stand and meet Saturday. All the men who attend the SDA seem full of GOD's Love and I don't recall them talking like your man does.

The umbrella of Christianity is not all of the GOD of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.. just like the Old Testament the New Testament attracted those that seek power and riches before the Kingdom of GOD.. not to judge but when you see Truth being compromised for peace according to man you know that darkness is at work posing as ministers of Light to deceive..
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
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Glad to hear that, but still...

Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel that is not applicable to Christians under the New Covenant. Even when someone today sets out to keep the Sabbath day, they aren’t truly keeping the Sabbath. To "keep the Sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament would involve compliance with certain regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced. If Sabbath day observances are still required, so would the burnt offerings which went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13). These were commanded by God to Israel. If the seventh day Sabbath is still in affect, then why do not the Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person say he keeps a certain law when he keeps only part of it?

If the Sabbath-day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people. Who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Seventh-day Adventist church? The Government? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did, no Sabbatarian can live consistently under the Mosaic regulations.

Amen!

I did not change the Sabbath day to another day. It has always been on Saturday. I have already explained why the Sabbath day with all it's rules and regulations was for Israel and not for Christians under the New Covenant. Jesus was under the law, which explains why He not only kept the Sabbath, but the entire law. Who was Jesus teaching the Sabbath to in the NT "prior to the New Covenant being fully established?" Where under the New Covenant is the Church commanded to keep the Sabbath?
You raise a lot of important points but most are out of date....referring to OT practices.
Look at Jesus and the Apostles....did they continue with them and teach people to do them ? Yashua/Jesus introduced a whole new system of worship which is to apply to Jew and Gentile alike ...there is no difference in Christ !!!
I know you did not change the sabbath day but you fight for sunday as if it were God-given....that can't be right. Rejecting HOLY time with a HOLY God will have disastrous results....as scripture warns.

As already said...we now obey IN LOVE...not by command...does not mean not to obey !
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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Glad to see you are so well read in the bible,and you make a good point,yes indeed obedience is part of our walk with Jesus for he is our master and saviour and we his servants,I'm not seeing why though that you get the impression that obedience is not what is apart of serving Jesus concerning other posters,has someone told you here that disobedience is not apart of doing right by Jesus,not hoping for names just wondering what it is you feel is lacking,please explainI will pay attention no matter what is said,I have the patience and the time.
I'll ask you a question;

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Who is this warning about?
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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You raise a lot of important points but most are out of date....referring to OT practices.
Look at Jesus and the Apostles....did they continue with them and teach people to do them ? Yashua/Jesus introduced a whole new system of worship which is to apply to Jew and Gentile alike ...there is no difference in Christ !!!
I know you did not change the sabbath day but you fight for sunday as if it were God-given....that can't be right. Rejecting HOLY time with a HOLY God will have disastrous results....as scripture warns.

As already said...we now obey IN LOVE...not by command...does not mean not to obey !
Absolutely,

Old Covenant= Faith(obedience) toward God and the Levitical Priesthood ceremonial, sacrificial "works of the Law" for remission of sins.

New Covenant= Faith(obedience) towards God and the belief in Christ's perfect Sacrifice for the remission of sins.

The definition of sin hasn't changed, just how sin's are forgiven.

Nice beta :)
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Lord, I am trying my hardest to remain saved. But its getting really hard.
Love,

Self Starter
Here is the problem with a fatalist. He has tried everything, even Christ but nothing works.
And there is the the problem. Christ is no different to them than any other human approach.
Christ is just law and idealistic goals, like any other "ism".

But the idea that a friend, who love and knows them intimately, died for them, and wants
to touch their heart, clean them, purify them and truly bring the Kingdom of God into their
hearts so it is not a matter of trying to be saved, but actually being saved and walking in it.

A person who feels they have to try, has already missed the point. Follow Jesus, listen to
Him, obey, and the Lord will bless, empower and enable. It is not doing but being, not saying
I must love this person, but actually loving them, not being defensive, but actually being open
and letting people hurt you, and despite this, still loving.

Yes it hurts, but the Holy Spirit in you overcomes. Judas knew Jesus, all about Him, yet still
betrayed Him. That hurt. Surely because they really know me, they will not betray me.
It will make no difference because they are lost.

Praise the Lord He saves, and those who love Him obey Him. The hard hearted will always
rebel against this, because they know no other way.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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You are entitled to believe as you wish but Loving GOD is part of the New Covenant.
you are also entitled to believe what you wish, but we are not saved by works or law or Sabbath keeping, but by grace only.
This conversation is so unexpected.
It appears some people feel they cannot love God with everything they are.

It is like they live with a measure beside them, and continually measure themselves and fail.

When you go to a child and ask do they love their mum, they will look at you oddly, run
to their mother and ask why the stranger asked the question because they do not understand
it.

If you understand my point, you understand their problem, which is a fundamental spiritual sense
of unbelief in someone, and not others. When I sing praise to my King I know who I love, with something
so deep it goes beyond anything else I have in my life.

God has written it on our hearts, we just need to exercise faith and walk in it.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Yes, we love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). The love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5).
I like this quote, but does this speak what you feel from your heart?
I do not love Jesus because the bible says I do, or should do, or because it gives a formula.
I love Jesus because He spoke to my heart and I see the love that transcends everything
else I know. It was this that emotionally reset me, and made me who I am.

But this sight only comes because of faith, and the word, and dwelling on the facts and listening
to Jesus and the testimony of those who met Him. The Holy Spirit takes all this and teaches us
the way we should go. It is clear to me, there are many who do not have this testimony.

I cannot say what they have, but clearly enough to say I am nothing and what they have is
the reality. What disturbs me is in summary it is a gospel of abdication of responsibility or a
loving relationship, into a cast iron, guaranteed, no exit allowed prison ship. This is the strangest
heaven, like a marriage made in hell, with the members wanting out, but with no handle on the door.

And in this prison ship, if you talk the very words of the Lord, you are of the devil. I think this suggests
that maybe this is not a ship going to heaven.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
5,370
262
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This conversation is so unexpected.
It appears some people feel they cannot love God with everything they are.

It is like they live with a measure beside them, and continually measure themselves and fail.

When you go to a child and ask do they love their mum, they will look at you oddly, run
to their mother and ask why the stranger asked the question because they do not understand
it.

If you understand my point, you understand their problem, which is a fundamental spiritual sense
of unbelief in someone, and not others. When I sing praise to my King I know who I love, with something
so deep it goes beyond anything else I have in my life.

God has written it on our hearts, we just need to exercise faith and walk in it.
so, it is " unexpected " to say that we are saved by grace alone, not of ourselves?/ guess you REALLY selectively read the Bible, the N.T. says this over and over.

I really wish you guys would stop trying to set Scripture against Scripture. it is really bad behavior, and disrespectable toward God's word.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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Then you sure have a strange way of Phrasing things.
No matter how he slices, dices, embellishes, twists, purees, mixes and or denies the facts....he espouses and pushes a false I keep myself saved working for dogma.....the fact he can lose it, forfeit it and MUST keep himself sealed and saved denies the work of Christ, the work of the Holy Spirit, denies the very verbiage of the bible, empowers self over Jesus and is the same version of "I WILL" found applied unto Lucifer before he fell and was cast put......and will have the same results when he is found in the "MANY" that boast about what they have done before the throne.....tragically I might add......!
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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you are also entitled to believe what you wish, but we are not saved by works or law or Sabbath keeping, but by grace only.

AMEN...and we are not afraid to call JESUS JESUS........
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
30,294
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Yes, we love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). The love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5).
AMEN...and NO man can love God unless born from above because the love of God is spiritual and a process of growth and maturity.......
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,124
126
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Hello MMD

Do you know the difference between the ceremonial and Levitical laws of Moses which were Shadows of things to come pointing to Jesus and God's Law (10 commandments) which is forever and what their purposes are?

I am asking because most of the scriptures you quote refer to the annual feast, others have no relevance to the Sabbath and some refer to the civil laws of Israel which ceased at the Roman occupation and the death of Christ and the beginning of the NC.

Also, who according to God's Word is Israel in your view?

Also in your view are we free to steal, lie and commit adultery or break any other of God's commandment, according to your Church's teachings? If not why are you now free to break God's 4th commandment which is to Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy?

Also where in all of God's Word does it command us that God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday Holy in place of God's Sabbath commandment that Jesus and the apostles followed because they love God?

Do you know how the Sabbath commandment was changed from Saturday to Sunday and who officially changed it?

I am looking forward to talking scripture with you my friend. Waiting for your replies.

Look forward to your reply. Please lets talk scripture.......

How about this one?

Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
30,294
1,208
113
What I'm against is for people in such groups as the SDA church who turn keeping the Sabbath day into a legalistic prescription for Christians under the New Covenant. There is an elderly man on my mail route who has tried to convince me that I MUST (or else) keep the weekly Sabbath on Saturday and often brags that he does. He has encouraged me to tell my employer that I cannot work on Saturday in order to keep the Sabbath day holy and even implied that those who don't will not make it to heaven. :rolleyes:

I have never once heard this man share the Gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) but he sure likes to talk about keeping the Saturday Sabbath day and those who worship God on Sunday will receive the mark of the beast. He is constantly slamming the Roman Catholic church for changing the Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday, but I understand the Sabbath day with all it's rules and regulations was Saturday and was part of a covenant with Israel that is not applicable to Christians under the New Covenant. Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

You can read some of the bizarre claims of the SDA church here - Bible Truth Versus Adventist Truth - Mark of the Beast
AMEN...and most that I have dealt with....yea ALL that I have dealt with cannot even get salvation right without embellishing it with self and works.......thank God while in AU I led one to the truth and after about 5 rounds of talks seen the truth of eternal security based upon grace, faith and the works and promises of JESUS......he tried five times to push his pre-programmed dogma on me while openly admitting he hardly ever studied the word or read the word but rather pushed his "churches" dogma without any clue of what the bible actually taught.......about round three he said I am beginning to see your points and by round 5 admitted that his religion seemed to be false and wrong in it's approach to salvation......on top of it all he was a deacon in his "church" and did not even study nor was he ordained or put through a good grilling before he was ordained.....
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
30,294
1,208
113
I'll ask you a question;

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Who is this warning about?
ALL claiming to be "anointed" and we have many examples....Like David Koresh, Jim Jones, Benny Hinn etc.........
 
Jul 23, 2017
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Absolutely,

Old Covenant= Faith(obedience) toward God and the Levitical Priesthood ceremonial, sacrificial "works of the Law" for remission of sins.

New Covenant= Faith(obedience) towards God and the belief in Christ's perfect Sacrifice for the remission of sins.

The definition of sin hasn't changed, just how sin's are forgiven.

Nice beta :)
doesnt hebrews say that sacrifices never took away sin? im in a spot now i cant check this out from the old testament, does it say those sacrifices remit their sins? can someone check it out for me. thanks uce.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
6,517
421
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Yes everyone one needs to be saved.. We that Believe are changed inwardly by the power of GOD.. cleansed of all sin by His Blood.. those that Believe are to walk as He walked in His Light.. and the knowledge that every sin we ever do put Him on the cross for our Salvation is what breaks us and GOD rebuilds us through our Faith in His Son's Testament. Reciprocated Love...

GOD is able to Keep us if we Trust and Love Him...

There are two type of people unbelievers and believers... indeed but the believers are no longer on the path to destruction but follow Christ's example keeping their heart Faithful to their First Love.

Wake up! Yes, Positionally "Cleansed in the Blood" in the Sight of God is part of SALVATION,
HOWEVER, SANCTIFICATION of the Body is a LIFE LONG STRUGGLE of Becoming more like Christ, yet FALLING SHORT, until we receive that GLORIFIED BODY, because sin still dwells in this mortal flesh.


Romans 3:22-24 (CSBBible)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The righteousness of God is through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe, since there is no distinction.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] For
all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Romans 7:15-24 (ESV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

1 Corinthians 9:25-27 (NIV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.


YOU ARE NOT PERFECT YET!


Romans 14:22-23 (ESV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God.
Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith.
For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.


Philippians 1:6 (ESV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you
will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 6:1 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of people, to be seen by them. Otherwise, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.


KEEP PRACTICING, YOU HAVE NOT ARRIVED AT SINLESSNESS YET.


Philippians 3:12 (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected;
but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,007
131
63
AMEN...and most that I have dealt with....yea ALL that I have dealt with cannot even get salvation right without embellishing it with self and works.......thank God while in AU I led one to the truth and after about 5 rounds of talks seen the truth of eternal security based upon grace, faith and the works and promises of JESUS......he tried five times to push his pre-programmed dogma on me while openly admitting he hardly ever studied the word or read the word but rather pushed his "churches" dogma without any clue of what the bible actually taught.......about round three he said I am beginning to see your points and by round 5 admitted that his religion seemed to be false and wrong in it's approach to salvation......on top of it all he was a deacon in his "church" and did not even study nor was he ordained or put through a good grilling before he was ordained.....
by round 5? Was it a fight?
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
5,959
191
63
[h=1]Also in your view are we free to steal, lie and commit adultery or break any other of God's commandment, according to your Church's teachings? If not why are you now free to break God's 4th commandment which is to Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy?
Sabbath (rest ) is not a time sensitive word.

Today as long as it is if we hear His voice and harden not our hearts we have entered that rest. Christ changed the Sabbath in mind from the last to day to the first. .the new era of Sabbaths .

The work week is a time sensitive word it never means rest.

Matthew 28Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
28 And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,[/h]