Not By Works

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stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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I pretty much agree with this, may word things differently but the intent and meaning I agree with.

and I didnt mean like someone ascting like they are good and they love Jesus anbd actually don't, because of course those peoplke exist, there have been "pastors" of churches that are freemasons and do everyhitng aginast Yah.

What I meant is like someone who believes they are on the right path and are not, not icking on any here (should not have to say that but I dont want to get accused or offened when that is not my intention) but like someone who folloows a fase reloigion and thinks they have found the way, like a buddist, muslim, or evenb false christianity, you know they think I ahve the right way but are not on the path, may we all evaluate ourselves and our doctrine continually to ensure it matches what Yah says Hiumself.
Those that I have been in contact with Hiz, have mostly been on fire Christians. Pretenders or fakes, not so much.

We all do seem to misunderstand one another often here. Myself included. Perhaps I don't listen closely enough?
 
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PHart

Guest
i do believe that "enduring" is primarily with reference to persisting in faith in the hope that we first received.
but what does it mean, "if we are faithless He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself" ? this is described as a specifically trustworthy saying - as is it's counterpart, that if we deny Him, He will also deny us. so 'faithless' isn't the same as denying Him, right? what is this? it's not simple.
Okay, good. Finally someone who can see the difference between being faithless and denying Christ. I've tried several times in the last few years to point this out with no one being able to comprehend the fact that, obviously, being faithless and denying Christ HAVE to be two different things because they have two different outcomes:

"If we disown him,he will also disown us;13if we are faithless,he remains faithful,for he cannot disown himself." (2 Timothy 2:12-13 NASB)

The outcome of disowning Christ is He will disown you (for you no longer belong to him that he should have some obligation to you as part of his body to keep you). In contrast, what he remains faithful to us in despite our unfaithfulness is in regard to our struggle as believers who have not disowned him in unbelief, but who struggle in living faithfully for Him within our trust in him for salvation.

You're the only one that I know of in these kinds of threads who has been able to see this difference plainly spelled out in this passage.
 
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PHart

Guest
I am saved because I believe. One time event.
I take it you are saying in a round-a-bout way that you are not a Calvinist who believes God makes people ahead of time to be either a believer or an unbeliever. So, if this is true that you are not a Calvinist that way, tell me why was your believing that you did not a work of you trying to save yourself but the believing I did and am still doing in order to be saved is?



I am in the hand of my Savior. NO ONE can take me out of His hand. NOT EVEN ME.
I do not believe I am stronger than Jesus as you do.
I do not believe I am stronger than Jesus either. I just believe he gives me the freedom to decide to love him or not.




You believe a person can come and go as he pleases. I do not.
That I do. And that is certainly not the equivalent of being stronger than Jesus. That is a loving God who does not force people to love and obey him but gives them the choice to love Him and his righteousness.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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2Ti 2:1 Thou, therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

first thought.

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead, according to my gospel,
2Ti 2:9 in which I suffer trouble, like unto an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

second thought. Paul is being persecuted and Timothy is hearing of it. Paul comforts, admonishes.

2Ti 2:10 Therefore, I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they may also obtain the saving health which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

This is Paul speaking. A father in the faith, to a fold. Many.

How to go through persecution.

2Ti 2:11 This is a faithful word: That if we are dead with him, we shall also live with him;

the goal, we keep in mind.


2Ti 2:12 if we suffer, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

the reward..


2Ti 2:13 if we are unfaithful, yet he remains faithful; he cannot deny himself.

saved, but as by fire. No rewards?



 
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PHart

Guest
2Ti 2:1 Thou, therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

first thought.

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead, according to my gospel,
2Ti 2:9 in which I suffer trouble, like unto an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

second thought. Paul is being persecuted and Timothy is hearing of it. Paul comforts, admonishes.

2Ti 2:10 Therefore, I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they may also obtain the saving health which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

This is Paul speaking. A father in the faith, to a fold. Many.

How to go through persecution.

2Ti 2:11 This is a faithful word: That if we are dead with him, we shall also live with him;

the goal, we keep in mind.


2Ti 2:12 if we suffer, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

the reward..


2Ti 2:13 if we are unfaithful, yet he remains faithful; he cannot deny himself.

saved, but as by fire. No rewards?



I suppose if a believer's unfaithfulness is them not having led anybody to Christ, and, therefore, they do not have anybody on the other side of the Judgment to be a reward for them, then yes, it could be talking about that. But that is still clearly distinguished from denying Christ, for which Christ will deny you.
 
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PHart

Guest
I saw the post you made and the new LAW you came up with....and like normal...you left off half of the verse and made Jesus say something he was not saying....seems your good at that...so which is it....the 12th or 13th commandant

13th Thou shalt be generous......????
Deuteronomy 15:7-8 is a NEW law? Interesting. What was really interesting was you ridiculing me for saying Deuteronomy 15:7-8 was a law of generosity. DEUTERONOMY 15:7-8....get it? It's the law, lol. Read it...then tell me it's not a lawful command to be generous:

"7If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them. 8Rather, be openhanded and freely lend them whatever they need. 9Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: “The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near,” so that you do not show ill will toward the needy among your fellow Israelites and give them nothing. They may then appeal to the Lord against you, and you will be found guilty of sin. 10Give generously to them and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. 11There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land." (Deuteronomy 15:7-11 NASB)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Who has EVER said that we provoke God to save us?
we all phrase what we are thinking in a way that frames it the way we want it to be heard. but what am i saying if i say that He only chose me because i first chose Him? scripture says i love because He first loved me. i know this to be true

 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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No, I did not say that. It is impossible to be saved on the merit of obeying the law. Jesus was pointing out to him that he was not the law keeper he thought he was. The law requires one to be generous to the needy among you.

Which is common among believers and unbelievers alike. They measure their obedience by a few commands they consider to be keeping, not all of them, and insist they are obedient to God.

NO, he was pointing out what in the Young Rich Man's life, was more important to him than "total surrender to Jesus as Lord and Master out of LOVE FOR HIM."
 
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PHart

Guest
we all phrase what we are thinking in a way that frames it the way we want it to be heard. but what am i saying if i say that He only chose me because i first chose Him? scripture says i love because He first loved me. i know this to be true

Lol, nobody's claiming to be the one that initiates salvation. The argument is we have the choice to respond to him when he initiates the potential for salvation through his calling. Our acceptance of Christ's calling results in our election, our choosing by Him to enter into eternal life.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Deuteronomy 15:7-8 is a NEW law? Interesting. What was really interesting was you ridiculing me for saying Deuteronomy 15:7-8 was a law of generosity. DEUTERONOMY 15:7-8....get it? It's the law, lol. Read it...then tell me it's not a lawful command to be generous:

"7If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them. 8Rather, be openhanded and freely lend them whatever they need. 9Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: “The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near,” so that you do not show ill will toward the needy among your fellow Israelites and give them nothing. They may then appeal to the Lord against you, and you will be found guilty of sin. 10Give generously to them and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. 11There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land." (Deuteronomy 15:7-11 NASB)
the question i have is whether "be openhanded and freely lend" is the same as "sell everything you have and give to the poor"

((also why does the '
christian right' voting bloc seem to be adamantly politically opposed to doing anything moderately close to this, but that's a whole other thread no one wants to post in))
 
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PHart

Guest
NO, he was pointing out what in the Young Rich Man's life, was more important to him than "total surrender to Jesus as Lord and Master out of LOVE FOR HIM."
Obviously that would be the motivation for him not having kept the command to be generous. But in context we can see that the issue is the keeping of God's commands. Jesus is pointing out to him in a somewhat round-a-bout fashion, which He was good at doing, that he was not the law keeper he thought he was. And that to enter into eternal life he would have to fulfill that law, too, in order to have eternal life. Not to earn eternal life, but as the expected and obligatory outcome of faith in the promise. Understand?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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10Give generously to them and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to.
ah here's the answer though. it's in the question, "how generous is 'generously'?" :)

verse 11, however, that there will always be poor among us, tells me something, too. :(
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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The Calvinist who claims God purposely made him to be a believer, not an unbeliever, and that nothing can alter that fate.
WRONG AGAIN about the Calvinist point of view. GOD CHOSE before foundation of the world those who would CHOOSE to LOVE HIM, and even wrote their names in the Lamb's Book of Life, before He formed the world. You have bought a lot of Armenian hogwash about what Calvinists believe. How about you start listening to what we got to say about our beliefs and trashcan what your past teachers told you we believe.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Lol, nobody's claiming to be the one that initiates salvation. The argument is we have the choice to respond to him when he initiates the potential for salvation through his calling. Our acceptance of Christ's calling results in our election, our choosing by Him to enter into eternal life.
is He ever surprised by anyone's decision? :rolleyes:
 
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PHart

Guest
the question i have is whether "be openhanded and freely lend" is the same as "sell everything you have and give to the poor"

I think it's because he's addressing this particular individual regarding that, not every person.



((also why does the '
christian right' voting bloc seem to be adamantly politically opposed to doing anything moderately close to this, but that's a whole other thread no one wants to post in))
Don't get me started on the hypocrisy and deceit of the 'righteous right' in American politics, lol. I fell for their garbage until I realized their real agenda. But don't assume I'm a liberal either. They're hypocritical and deceitful in regard to their agenda.
 
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PHart

Guest
is He ever surprised by anyone's decision? :rolleyes:
No. But that hardly means he pre-programmed some people to be believers, and others unbelievers. Can you see that it's possible for God to know beforehand whether you will be soil that the word of God will grow in, or that you will be soil where it will not grow in without that meaning God purposely made the soil that way and because of that it has no choice but to be that?
 
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PHart

Guest
WRONG AGAIN about the Calvinist point of view. GOD CHOSE before foundation of the world those who would CHOOSE to LOVE HIM, and even wrote their names in the Lamb's Book of Life, before He formed the world. You have bought a lot of Armenian hogwash about what Calvinists believe. How about you start listening to what we got to say about our beliefs and trashcan what your past teachers told you we believe.
I learned it from Calvinists.