What did Jesus say about a certain type of "works"?
John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.
Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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What did Jesus say about a certain type of "works"?
John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]We can not earn Salvation by only obedience to the Law of the Creator, as James said and as Yahshua Himself said it takes faith and works. Romans 10:4 is a verses mistranslated in the majority of Bibles thus blurring the lines of truth. Christ is not “the end of the Law” but rather Yahshua showed the intent, ultimate result or goal (telos) of keeping the Law of YHWH.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The word translated “end” is word#G5056, τέλος, telos, tel'-os[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid):—+ continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Lets look at places this word is used in the Konie Greek originals to get an idea of it meaning and context;[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1Peter 1:9, "Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Peter 1:9, "Receiving the ultimate result (telos) of your faith – the salvation of your souls."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If the its the end of the Law aka Law is done away or at an end in Romans 10:4 then faith must also be done away or at an end in 1 Peter 1:9. Unless of course “telos” means the goal.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #G5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 5:11, “Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 5:11, “See, we call those blessed who endure. You have heard of the endurance of Iyoḇ and saw the purpose (telos) of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[FONT=Times New Roman, serif], that He is very sympathetic and compassionate.”[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the end (telos) of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the goal (telos) of this command is love from a clean heart, from a good conscience and a sincere belief.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 6:22, “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end (telos) everlasting life.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 6:22, “But now, having been set free from sin, and having become servants of Yah, you have your fruit resulting in set-apartness, and the goal (telos); everlasting life.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The word is used in the sense of the end result, the goal, the outcome, not in the sense of the obliteration of the Law…[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5-7, " But the goal* of our instruction/command is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*goal is word #G5056 télos - Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The word translated “end” is word#G5056, τέλος, telos, tel'-os[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid):—+ continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Lets look at places this word is used in the Konie Greek originals to get an idea of it meaning and context;[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1Peter 1:9, "Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Peter 1:9, "Receiving the ultimate result (telos) of your faith – the salvation of your souls."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If the its the end of the Law aka Law is done away or at an end in Romans 10:4 then faith must also be done away or at an end in 1 Peter 1:9. Unless of course “telos” means the goal.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #G5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 5:11, “Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 5:11, “See, we call those blessed who endure. You have heard of the endurance of Iyoḇ and saw the purpose (telos) of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[FONT=Times New Roman, serif], that He is very sympathetic and compassionate.”[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the end (telos) of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the goal (telos) of this command is love from a clean heart, from a good conscience and a sincere belief.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 6:22, “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end (telos) everlasting life.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 6:22, “But now, having been set free from sin, and having become servants of Yah, you have your fruit resulting in set-apartness, and the goal (telos); everlasting life.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The word is used in the sense of the end result, the goal, the outcome, not in the sense of the obliteration of the Law…[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5-7, " But the goal* of our instruction/command is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*goal is word #G5056 télos - Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.[/FONT]
R
Works of service performed, while being lawless, are worthless. The sacrifice of your service will never replace the obedience of faith.
Don't think what you do for Christ in your ministerial activities and church attendance is going to somehow make it okay that you are not obedient to him in the matters of sex, finances and the things of this world, and how you treat other people.
Don't think what you do for Christ in your ministerial activities and church attendance is going to somehow make it okay that you are not obedient to him in the matters of sex, finances and the things of this world, and how you treat other people.
R
Christ is the end of the law FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS, not the end of the law that we don't have to uphold it.
Because of the new way of faith in Christ to be righteous before God, the old way of the letter of the law to be righteous before God has ended. (Not that it was that to begin with. It was misunderstood by the Jews to be how you make yourself righteous before God-Romans 9:31-32).
The upholding of the law has not ended. We uphold the righteousness of the law through our faith, not destroy it-Romans 3:31.
Because of the new way of faith in Christ to be righteous before God, the old way of the letter of the law to be righteous before God has ended. (Not that it was that to begin with. It was misunderstood by the Jews to be how you make yourself righteous before God-Romans 9:31-32).
The upholding of the law has not ended. We uphold the righteousness of the law through our faith, not destroy it-Romans 3:31.
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R
There's a big difference between the person who obeys God according to the law and seeks the forgiveness of God when he falls short and the person who does not even try to uphold the law and is sexually immoral, loves this world, and treats people badly thinking Christ's forgiveness covers him in that disobedience. The latter seems to describe the church pretty well these days I've noticed.
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Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
Good luck Zone.......he never answers or rarely answers a direct question, but rather will post a wall of text about the law even though no one keeps it and it condemns all and is for the LAWLESS <--THOSE NOT IN CHRIST BY FAITH!
Posted by Seohce:
Are you a sinner, YES OR NO? Does obedience to God's laws and commands which are written in the scriptures make you sick, YES OR NO? Do you not divide what God made as one new man/creation(romans 9:4-5 & ephesians 2:11-22)?
1 Corinthians 6:17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
2 Corinthians 5:17-18 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
Matthew 19:6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”
Dcon’s reply:
Look at the above plethora of scripture lacking context and blending at least 2 or 3 different contexts into one meaning....man you are a walking talking contradiction when it comes to the word of God ...........geesh!
WE CAN NOTICE THAT THIS PERSON CONVINCES ANOTHER PERSON THAT THE POSTER NEVER ANSWERS A DIRECT QUESTION BUT OBVIOUSLY HE HIMSELF DOES THAT SAME THING HE ACCUSE OTHERS OF DOING.
Romans 2:1-16 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance? But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism. All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU.
1 John 4:1 Test the Spirits Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
John 7:17-18 If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.
Good luck Zone.......he never answers or rarely answers a direct question, but rather will post a wall of text about the law even though no one keeps it and it condemns all and is for the LAWLESS <--THOSE NOT IN CHRIST BY FAITH!
Posted by Seohce:
Are you a sinner, YES OR NO? Does obedience to God's laws and commands which are written in the scriptures make you sick, YES OR NO? Do you not divide what God made as one new man/creation(romans 9:4-5 & ephesians 2:11-22)?
1 Corinthians 6:17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
2 Corinthians 5:17-18 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
Matthew 19:6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”
Dcon’s reply:
Look at the above plethora of scripture lacking context and blending at least 2 or 3 different contexts into one meaning....man you are a walking talking contradiction when it comes to the word of God ...........geesh!
WE CAN NOTICE THAT THIS PERSON CONVINCES ANOTHER PERSON THAT THE POSTER NEVER ANSWERS A DIRECT QUESTION BUT OBVIOUSLY HE HIMSELF DOES THAT SAME THING HE ACCUSE OTHERS OF DOING.
Romans 2:1-16 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance? But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism. All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU.
1 John 4:1 Test the Spirits Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
John 7:17-18 If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.
I don't expect false converts and the lost to act like they're converted. Why do you? So you can seem above them, pretend they're converts, and speak of yourself, works, goodness often?
What have "you noticed" about your own wretchedness and present sinful condition; Luke 18:9-14? 1 Timothy 1:15?
What have "you noticed" about your own wretchedness and present sinful condition; Luke 18:9-14? 1 Timothy 1:15?
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He would have taught them the prophecies too.
I am fully aware there are many things not written in the Bible.
Daniel would have no doubt taught them the prophecies of the Messiah, but he also taught them about the stars.
VCO, you're ignoring the scripture that refer to what the Magi saw. They saw something in the stars, the heavens, which alerted them that the Messiah had come.
Matt 2:
2) Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
7) Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
8) And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
9) When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
10) When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
I am fully aware there are many things not written in the Bible.
Daniel would have no doubt taught them the prophecies of the Messiah, but he also taught them about the stars.
VCO, you're ignoring the scripture that refer to what the Magi saw. They saw something in the stars, the heavens, which alerted them that the Messiah had come.
Matt 2:
2) Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
7) Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
8) And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
9) When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
10) When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
Many of these posters will often deny they teach that salvation is earned by works and may even profess to teach that salvation is by grace through faith, but then redefine this in a way that is contrary to the Gospel. Surely, you are not naive enough to believe that not one single poster on Christian Chat teaches that receiving eternal life is not based (at least in part) on works? Here are just a few statements from posters that I've had discussions with in the past:
From someone who attends the church of Christ - "it is works of obedience and not works of the law or works of merit that help to save us."
*Of course, that is an oxymoron because you cannot dissect works of obedience from the moral aspect of the law (Matthew 22:37-40) and if these works "help" save us then they would be works of merit.
This poster also stated multiple times that we "absolutely MUST be water baptized in order to be saved"(and so have other numerous posters who attend the church of Christ, the Roman Catholic church and other works-salvationists as well). This poster also quoted James 2:24 to read as such: "You see that a man is justified/saved by works, and not by faith only."
I was in a discussion with another poster who is a Roman Catholic and claims that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he contradicted himself by saying this below:
"We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith".
Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments" etc..
His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. Roman Catholics seem to think by not teaching that justification comes through perfect obedience to the law that they are not teaching salvation by works, yet they still claim that we are saved by accomplishing this check list of works above, which means these works are meritorious towards receiving salvation.
There is a seventh day adventist poster who claims there is a counterfeit Gospel out there and even asks the question, "what is the counterfeit Gospel?" and goes on to say - "It is a message that tries to separate Gods forever Law (the 10 commandments Ex 20:1-18) from faith in Christ for salvation." So here we have an SDA who "adds" the 10 commandments to the Gospel for salvation.
This poster also teaches that God's Word tells us that the "Beast" and his "Mark" is received as the Roman Catholic Church unites with the USA and the nations of the world to enforce a national Sunday law. All who believe and obey, this law will receive the "Mark of the Beast" and the Judgements of God (Rev 13 and 14) because they turn from God by disregarding his 7th Day Sabbath to follow man made traditions. So keeping the Sabbath day on Saturday becomes a work for salvation.
Such people play the same game in salvation as every other false movement of Christendom. They profess to teach that salvation is by grace through faith, but then redefine this in a way that is contrary to the Gospel and even though they may deny this, they teach that salvation is by "grace plus law, faith plus works."
From someone who attends the church of Christ - "it is works of obedience and not works of the law or works of merit that help to save us."
*Of course, that is an oxymoron because you cannot dissect works of obedience from the moral aspect of the law (Matthew 22:37-40) and if these works "help" save us then they would be works of merit.
This poster also stated multiple times that we "absolutely MUST be water baptized in order to be saved"(and so have other numerous posters who attend the church of Christ, the Roman Catholic church and other works-salvationists as well). This poster also quoted James 2:24 to read as such: "You see that a man is justified/saved by works, and not by faith only."
I was in a discussion with another poster who is a Roman Catholic and claims that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he contradicted himself by saying this below:
"We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith".
Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments" etc..
His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. Roman Catholics seem to think by not teaching that justification comes through perfect obedience to the law that they are not teaching salvation by works, yet they still claim that we are saved by accomplishing this check list of works above, which means these works are meritorious towards receiving salvation.
There is a seventh day adventist poster who claims there is a counterfeit Gospel out there and even asks the question, "what is the counterfeit Gospel?" and goes on to say - "It is a message that tries to separate Gods forever Law (the 10 commandments Ex 20:1-18) from faith in Christ for salvation." So here we have an SDA who "adds" the 10 commandments to the Gospel for salvation.
This poster also teaches that God's Word tells us that the "Beast" and his "Mark" is received as the Roman Catholic Church unites with the USA and the nations of the world to enforce a national Sunday law. All who believe and obey, this law will receive the "Mark of the Beast" and the Judgements of God (Rev 13 and 14) because they turn from God by disregarding his 7th Day Sabbath to follow man made traditions. So keeping the Sabbath day on Saturday becomes a work for salvation.
Such people play the same game in salvation as every other false movement of Christendom. They profess to teach that salvation is by grace through faith, but then redefine this in a way that is contrary to the Gospel and even though they may deny this, they teach that salvation is by "grace plus law, faith plus works."
R
2 Corinthians 2:6-8.
He was received back into the fellowship after being kicked out for his immoral life. This shows he repented in a dying to the flesh at the hands of satan.
I showed you that none of your examples can be used to show that you can live in your old unrepentant life and be saved at the same time. You have not been able to refute what I showed you.
He was received back into the fellowship after being kicked out for his immoral life. This shows he repented in a dying to the flesh at the hands of satan.
I showed you that none of your examples can be used to show that you can live in your old unrepentant life and be saved at the same time. You have not been able to refute what I showed you.
R
Many of these posters will often deny they teach that salvation is earned by works and may even profess to teach that salvation is by grace through faith, but then redefine this in a way that is contrary to the Gospel. Surely, you are not naive enough to believe that not one single poster on Christian Chat teaches that receiving eternal life is not based (at least in part) on works? Here are just a few statements from posters that I've had discussions with in the past:
From someone who attends the church of Christ - "it is works of obedience and not works of the law or works of merit that help to save us."
*Of course, that is an oxymoron because you cannot dissect works of obedience from the moral aspect of the law (Matthew 22:37-40) and if these works "help" save us then they would be works of merit.
This poster also stated multiple times that we "absolutely MUST be water baptized in order to be saved"(and so have other numerous posters who attend the church of Christ, the Roman Catholic church and other works-salvationists as well). This poster also quoted James 2:24 to read as such: "You see that a man is justified/saved by works, and not by faith only."
I was in a discussion with another poster who is a Roman Catholic and claims that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he contradicted himself by saying this below:
"We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith".
Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments" etc..
His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. Roman Catholics seem to think by not teaching that justification comes through perfect obedience to the law that they are not teaching salvation by works, yet they still claim that we are saved by accomplishing this check list of works above, which means these works are meritorious towards receiving salvation.
There is a seventh day adventist poster who claims there is a counterfeit Gospel out there and even asks the question, "what is the counterfeit Gospel?" and goes on to say - "It is a message that tries to separate Gods forever Law (the 10 commandments Ex 20:1-18) from faith in Christ for salvation." So here we have an SDA who "adds" the 10 commandments to the Gospel for salvation.
This poster also teaches that God's Word tells us that the "Beast" and his "Mark" is received as the Roman Catholic Church unites with the USA and the nations of the world to enforce a national Sunday law. All who believe and obey, this law will receive the "Mark of the Beast" and the Judgements of God (Rev 13 and 14) because they turn from God by disregarding his 7th Day Sabbath to follow man made traditions. So keeping the Sabbath day on Saturday becomes a work for salvation.
Such people play the same game in salvation as every other false movement of Christendom. They profess to teach that salvation is by grace through faith, but then redefine this in a way that is contrary to the Gospel and even though they may deny this, they teach that salvation is by "grace plus law, faith plus works."
From someone who attends the church of Christ - "it is works of obedience and not works of the law or works of merit that help to save us."
*Of course, that is an oxymoron because you cannot dissect works of obedience from the moral aspect of the law (Matthew 22:37-40) and if these works "help" save us then they would be works of merit.
This poster also stated multiple times that we "absolutely MUST be water baptized in order to be saved"(and so have other numerous posters who attend the church of Christ, the Roman Catholic church and other works-salvationists as well). This poster also quoted James 2:24 to read as such: "You see that a man is justified/saved by works, and not by faith only."
I was in a discussion with another poster who is a Roman Catholic and claims that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he contradicted himself by saying this below:
"We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith".
Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments" etc..
His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. Roman Catholics seem to think by not teaching that justification comes through perfect obedience to the law that they are not teaching salvation by works, yet they still claim that we are saved by accomplishing this check list of works above, which means these works are meritorious towards receiving salvation.
There is a seventh day adventist poster who claims there is a counterfeit Gospel out there and even asks the question, "what is the counterfeit Gospel?" and goes on to say - "It is a message that tries to separate Gods forever Law (the 10 commandments Ex 20:1-18) from faith in Christ for salvation." So here we have an SDA who "adds" the 10 commandments to the Gospel for salvation.
This poster also teaches that God's Word tells us that the "Beast" and his "Mark" is received as the Roman Catholic Church unites with the USA and the nations of the world to enforce a national Sunday law. All who believe and obey, this law will receive the "Mark of the Beast" and the Judgements of God (Rev 13 and 14) because they turn from God by disregarding his 7th Day Sabbath to follow man made traditions. So keeping the Sabbath day on Saturday becomes a work for salvation.
Such people play the same game in salvation as every other false movement of Christendom. They profess to teach that salvation is by grace through faith, but then redefine this in a way that is contrary to the Gospel and even though they may deny this, they teach that salvation is by "grace plus law, faith plus works."
R
Are you afraid to say you are different than uncoverted people and false brethren because of what Christ has done for you? I'm not. God's grace has made me different than I was before he saved me. I'm not going to pretend to still be like I used to be out of fear people like you will see it as me be being holier than thou in a self righteous kind of way.
Are you still like you were before you got saved?
Are you still like you were before you got saved?
See? This is typical you, always pointing the finger at others, and exalting yourself against them incessantly.
You're so full of disdain for any other than yourself it's pitiful to behold, and this is why you come up with false accusations upon me and others. You think the worst of anyone, but way too highly of yourself but cannot see it. Luke 18:9-11. "are you afraid to say you're different..." Hang it up, you don't know what youre' talking about. Keep your false assumptions to yourself, you're only bearing false witness and showing your heart of disdain.
Nope. You're not afraid to talk about you with a token to God thrown in time and again. You are your favorite subject, and others the second favorite as long as they can be spoken of in derogation.
I don't know who you were before you were saved, all I know is what you are now. You're the epitome of Luke 18:9-11. Do you notice your own wretched nature, sinfulness, or just that of all others?
You are self-righteous, that's a well known fact. You speak often of yourself, in a good way, and often of others, in a condemning fashion.
No one who is truly converted remains the same, or self-righteous, which is why I have concern for you.
Do you notice you're own wretchedness, pride, sinfulness, smugness, or only that of others who know Christ so you can pretend they're lost and not on your presumed level above all others where you've placed yourself?
You're so full of disdain for any other than yourself it's pitiful to behold, and this is why you come up with false accusations upon me and others. You think the worst of anyone, but way too highly of yourself but cannot see it. Luke 18:9-11. "are you afraid to say you're different..." Hang it up, you don't know what youre' talking about. Keep your false assumptions to yourself, you're only bearing false witness and showing your heart of disdain.
Nope. You're not afraid to talk about you with a token to God thrown in time and again. You are your favorite subject, and others the second favorite as long as they can be spoken of in derogation.
I don't know who you were before you were saved, all I know is what you are now. You're the epitome of Luke 18:9-11. Do you notice your own wretched nature, sinfulness, or just that of all others?
You are self-righteous, that's a well known fact. You speak often of yourself, in a good way, and often of others, in a condemning fashion.
No one who is truly converted remains the same, or self-righteous, which is why I have concern for you.
Do you notice you're own wretchedness, pride, sinfulness, smugness, or only that of others who know Christ so you can pretend they're lost and not on your presumed level above all others where you've placed yourself?
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What gets me is these are always pointing at others on here as if they are lost, as if their lives have not changed, as if they love sin, live in sin. Those speaking against them this way act as if they are the only ones who are truly converted. It's just getting very old, they don't treat anyone with respect or as if they know Christ at all.
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R
Do you say it's okay to remain in your old life and not have a new life and you will still be saved? That's what I'm against. Every Christian should be against that. If you are not then you need to do some self examination.
The church is not for hypocrites. It's for people who want to be different. Hypocrites need to be escorted to the door and into the hands of Satan for deliverance from the flesh just as Paul said to do with them. You do know what a hypocrite is don't you? It's the person who is purposely pretending to be a Christian and has no intention of being like Christ and worst of all teaches others it's okay to be that. They are false brethren. We need not have false modesty and pretend we are like them. You can but I'm not going to because I'm not like them. I want to grow up.
The church is not for hypocrites. It's for people who want to be different. Hypocrites need to be escorted to the door and into the hands of Satan for deliverance from the flesh just as Paul said to do with them. You do know what a hypocrite is don't you? It's the person who is purposely pretending to be a Christian and has no intention of being like Christ and worst of all teaches others it's okay to be that. They are false brethren. We need not have false modesty and pretend we are like them. You can but I'm not going to because I'm not like them. I want to grow up.
R
That's what I see too. I don't see works to be saved as a problem among mainline churches. But you would think it is by how much it gets preached.
If there is any works problem in the church it's they think their church activities and service for God somehow makes up for their lawlessness as per 1 Corinthians 6:9. Pastors need to set the church straight on that. But I'm afraid they are the one's leading the flock into that kind of Christianity.
If there is any works problem in the church it's they think their church activities and service for God somehow makes up for their lawlessness as per 1 Corinthians 6:9. Pastors need to set the church straight on that. But I'm afraid they are the one's leading the flock into that kind of Christianity.
Yes, that is an age-old fight of the flesh nature each are first born in under Adam, who failed God in unbelief to him and ate in disbelief he would die.
No flesh nature under the similitude of Adam and Eve pleases Father ever. Only one flesh and blood has pleased Father as Father's Son, not born of man. Borm of Woman, yes!
But not Man for it was the Holy Spirit of Father in Spirit and truth that caused Mary to be pregnant, without ever having sex first. A Virgin from the tribe of Judah, of the First Chosen.
Okay with all that said We have today a Before the Cross, and an After the Cross.
Before the cross under Law, to do to, be in or never be in. And the requirement under Law is perfection.
How am I doing, I am not perfect and never can be, not of me or of anyone else's help either.
You see no one can just read it all before the cross, this includes those Gospels of Christ's walk here on earth in the only perfect flesh and blood, that did not sin according to Father, these two as Won (One)
Now we are to be adopted in by Faith (belief) to he is risen where new life in Spirit and Truth that are given by Father and no other, through Son's done reconciliation work for us all to get this gift free, at no cost to anyone to have it
This is a gift, any work that has to be done from us is not of God
Work is necessary, but it is not our own work that is needed it is the done work of Son shining through us in belief to his truth. The Veil removed by Father because of Son's one time done work on the cross per Col 1:22
Now on the risen side of the cross, from Father by Son where all sin is taken out of the way for new life to begin in those that turn to Father in belief, will see as Father is faithful to this mercy given us by Son.
Mixing oil and water do not mix, does it? Neither does Faith and self-works!
So before the Cross under Law, under the revealing of the curse of all flesh but one that is Son's. In the resurrected Christ is where new life is at to be lived by Faith that produces God's works through us in Love and mercy, the same as having received from him in risennSon from the first day in belief to he has risen between Father and you personally.
So we as said have a before the cross, the firstborn fallen flesh, and blood under the similitude of the First Adam. Now today in the risen Son we are saved by God Father through this done work once in belief to his love and mercy gave us to see and be doers of his love and mercy given us first in response, not of work
Thank you for asking
No flesh nature under the similitude of Adam and Eve pleases Father ever. Only one flesh and blood has pleased Father as Father's Son, not born of man. Borm of Woman, yes!
But not Man for it was the Holy Spirit of Father in Spirit and truth that caused Mary to be pregnant, without ever having sex first. A Virgin from the tribe of Judah, of the First Chosen.
Okay with all that said We have today a Before the Cross, and an After the Cross.
Before the cross under Law, to do to, be in or never be in. And the requirement under Law is perfection.
How am I doing, I am not perfect and never can be, not of me or of anyone else's help either.
You see no one can just read it all before the cross, this includes those Gospels of Christ's walk here on earth in the only perfect flesh and blood, that did not sin according to Father, these two as Won (One)
Now we are to be adopted in by Faith (belief) to he is risen where new life in Spirit and Truth that are given by Father and no other, through Son's done reconciliation work for us all to get this gift free, at no cost to anyone to have it
This is a gift, any work that has to be done from us is not of God
Work is necessary, but it is not our own work that is needed it is the done work of Son shining through us in belief to his truth. The Veil removed by Father because of Son's one time done work on the cross per Col 1:22
Now on the risen side of the cross, from Father by Son where all sin is taken out of the way for new life to begin in those that turn to Father in belief, will see as Father is faithful to this mercy given us by Son.
Mixing oil and water do not mix, does it? Neither does Faith and self-works!
So before the Cross under Law, under the revealing of the curse of all flesh but one that is Son's. In the resurrected Christ is where new life is at to be lived by Faith that produces God's works through us in Love and mercy, the same as having received from him in risennSon from the first day in belief to he has risen between Father and you personally.
So we as said have a before the cross, the firstborn fallen flesh, and blood under the similitude of the First Adam. Now today in the risen Son we are saved by God Father through this done work once in belief to his love and mercy gave us to see and be doers of his love and mercy given us first in response, not of work
Thank you for asking