Not By Works

[Magenta]

Haha just noticed that the editor separated your one post into two I did not do that It is a problem either with the editor, or the browser, though I am not sure why it happens. I do know that when I have caught that in the past and tried to fix it, that fixes did not "take."

 

[1ofthem]

There is a multi-quote option, to the right of Reply With Quote option. It is a little plus sign beside a quotation mark That is used when you want to put two or more posts together. It can be tricky, though, so I usually just quote one message, then copy it, and move to the next message I want to quote, and insert the first message ahead of it. I will often use the Go Advanced option to check that everything displays properly.

Separating parts of one person's post into sections to respond to point by point is a different matter of using the quote wrap. Then you have to make sure that there are not more opening quote tags than closing quote tags, and vice versa. The quote wrap option is beside the insert video option above the text box ​

Thanks for the help. I copied and saved this post so I can read it later and use it for a reference

 

[johnthebaptist]

Actually yes it does.

All have sinned and FALL SHORT of the glory of God.

Even Jesus said, Only God is good.

A legalist says they are made righteous by earning their salvation. I am not a legalist. I am a tax collector who got on my knees and cried out to God because I knew I was unworthy.

Can you tell me how a person is justified, declared righteous, so they can enter heaven?

I am not saying a person can be saved and continue to live or excuse their sin, So please stop wiht that strawman.

Amen.
Then we are in agreement and can continue as brothers following the Lord, walking in His ways
and knowing the Holy Spirit working in our lives, Halleluyah.

I do not know who is saved and who is not, all I know is my Lord is my Saviour and brought me
from death to life. Each day I bring that new day to Him in praise and thanks giving for the blessing He
is to me, to give me another day here to share His communion and presence with myself and others.

[video=youtube;_NiivaEa8ns]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NiivaEa8ns&list=RDGMEMMib4QpREwENw3_jAc0Y gNwVM_NiivaEa8ns[/video]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree...

Just because someone struggles with certain things and has to ask for forgiveness more than someone else in that area does not mean that they are not saved. Also like you said we all have to continue to grow in this and we can make mistakes trough lack of understanding and inexperience. That does not mean that we are not saved...but just like you said that means that we need more discipline, encouragement, and growth. That is why I said it is not my place to judge because God knows the heart and the reasoning.

I've seen it and even been in that situation where I myself have been struggling and in need of guidance, understanding, and encouragement...and seemed like all I got from some people was judgement...Some people are quick to lay down the law and say you could not be saved if you continue to have any struggles. More or less, a kick you when you are down type thing and not even really trying to help you up. That's why I am glad that God is the judge because he knows our hearts and he is there to help us and pick us back up through his love, grace, and mercy.

Amen and Amen sis.

The bolden part, I have experienced and witnessed this also. It is why I am so passionate against legalism, and if I even see a hint of something that may be seen as legalism, I jump right in and confront it face to face, Of course, I may be wrong, like here, when it is obvious you were not saying we must seek to obey, but not in a legalistic way. And it is amazing, Since you were not o0ffended, and did not take offense. We actually had a great conversation I hope understand each other much better, and hopefully helped others understand us better also.

Just don’t tell certain people who think I am out to attack and hurt people at all costs to get my view across

 

[Magenta]

Thanks for the help. I copied and saved this post so I can read it later and use it for a reference

You are welcome For point-by-point responses where you will be using the quote wrap option, make sure not to delete any of the very first quote tag information with the posters name and the site post number, because that is the link back to the original post. Then start by typing in, or copying from the very end of the post, [ /quote] (but with no spaces). Then you begin your response, and move to the next section of the post you have quoted, and put a quote wrap around it. All the quote wrap does is insert [ quote] at the beginning of the text, and a [ /quote] at the end (but without the spaces); there is no link back to the original post with quote wraps

 

[1ofthem]

Amen and Amen sis.

The bolden part, I have experienced and witnessed this also. It is why I am so passionate against legalism, and if I even see a hint of something that may be seen as legalism, I jump right in and confront it face to face, Of course, I may be wrong, like here, when it is obvious you were not saying we must seek to obey, but not in a legalistic way. And it is amazing, Since you were not o0ffended, and did not take offense. We actually had a great conversation I hope understand each other much better, and hopefully helped others understand us better also.

Just don’t tell certain people who think I am out to attack and hurt people at all costs to get my view across

Amen brother...I really enjoyed our conversation...God Bless You

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen brother...I really enjoyed our conversation...God Bless You

Thank you sister. I enjoyed our conversation also. Was very refreshing and edifying, Thank you so much., And may God bless you also!

 

[johnthebaptist]

Translation language problems
Imputed righteousness, reconned righteousness.

Imputed righteousness as a word is thought of Christs righteousness covering an individual so
no matter how sinful they are, God regards them as clean.

Reconned righteousness is faith through action that shows a living relationship with God which
is taken by God as a true follower of Him and who He is.

Now some translations use imputed righteousness for both meanings, while others do not, and
people also refer to the two concepts interchangeably, so quoting individuals without knowing
what they mean can cause problems.

Calvin and the reformation introduced the idea we are seen by God as pure and holy, though not
actually or even washed clean, and that is salvation. This causes lots of conflict in interpretation,
but seems a total distraction from our true calling to walk like Jesus is love, humbleness and purity.

What fanatical religious groups are known for is desiring to make believers of different sorts appear
horrendously evil for their beliefs, without understanding why they are held and what they mean to
that particular community.

Jesus's approach was to look at the heart, see the goals of the people, and lay out the way of love.
His formula was if you reject the way of love, everything else is irrelevant, because God is love.
And love can be brutal, judgemental and righteous, which many do not understand, which is why man
dies at the sight of God, because we are so fundamentally flawed without new birth and the Kingdom
within.

What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Romans 4:3
This is not Christs righteousness

It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
Rom 4:13

Our righteousness is because of our faith. Without faith we have no righteousness.
Without faith Peter would have been lost.

“Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.
Luke 22:31-32

Why do people turn back to darkness from the light? I do not know why, but it happens,
unless you are prepared to deny the reality in peoples lives and church experience.
Thinking up excuses about those who thought they were saved and then found out they
were not, really is not helpful, because all it underlines is conviction is no security of position.

 

[johnthebaptist]

I agree...

Just because someone struggles with certain things and has to ask for forgiveness more than someone else in that area does not mean that they are not saved. Also like you said we all have to continue to grow in this and we can make mistakes trough lack of understanding and inexperience. That does not mean that we are not saved...but just like you said that means that we need more discipline, encouragement, and growth. That is why I said it is not my place to judge because God knows the heart and the reasoning.

I've seen it and even been in that situation where I myself have been struggling and in need of guidance, understanding, and encouragement...and seemed like all I got from some people was judgement...Some people are quick to lay down the law and say you could not be saved if you continue to have any struggles. More or less, a kick you when you are down type thing and not even really trying to help you up. That's why I am glad that God is the judge because he knows our hearts and he is there to help us and pick us back up through his love, grace, and mercy.

The human heart if fickle, and we tend to justify ourselves at the merest hint of the possibility.
When things go bad, you will hear, "I knew that person was no good" and if things go well,
"I knew for the beginning it would succeed".

Being real and vulnerable costs, and hurts are always hard to accept in love from others, but
this is Jesus's way. To forgive takes courage and strength. Many leave churches because it
is easier to not have contact than to learn how to walk in forgiveness and humbleness and
realise we are just servants of our glorious Lord, serving in His Kingdom.

Better is one day in your courts
than a thousand elsewhere;
I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God
than dwell in the tents of the wicked.
Psalm 84:10

 

[dcontroversal]

You think? Thats your first problem, Your correct. The majority of us are SALVATIOn by faith alone, What we also are is of the FACT that FAITH is NEVER ALONE.





James is preaching against a CLAIMED FAITH, not FAITH ALONE. His point is that FAITH IS NEVER ALONE. I can claim faith till I am blue in the face. If I have no works (the BYPRODUCT OF FAITH) that claimed faiht is no faith at all, it is lifeless. It is DEAD.

No matter How bad you want him to. James does not contradict paul

Nor does he teach a works based or attained salvation.....

 

[dcontroversal]

Horrific example. The jews did not think they had BOUGHT permanent anything, they continually complained, griped. Attacked Moses. Showed LACK OF FAITH in God and his leaders (moses and Arron) and even convinced Gods priest to make a golden calf.

You do not PURCHASE eternal life, it is a gift, Given to you, Like God TRIED to give these people from Isreal. He will not force you to take it though. He tried to give it to them, but they rejected it, thus non of them entered in. Not because they were not good enough (no one is) but because they lacked faith.

My view of the latter paragraph is different....I beleieve they were saved (struck the blood by faith and had collective immersion in the red sea) but were not afforded the rest a believer can enter into in this life by faith...even throughout the whole process God led them, his presence was known (pillar of fire and smoke) gave them a way of worship, law etc and used chastisment on them collectively....my view in Hebrews 4 is indicative of rest due to faith not salvation.....just saying migo

 

[dcontroversal]

The law says you have to obey ever word, or else you are under a curse

can you name 1 person who obeyed the law perfectly?

as for the jews, these same jews yelled mopse4s brought them their to die. And you call that faith? If you think that is faith, I question your knowledge of what faith is.

Only one.....Jesus and thank God hey bro

 

[dcontroversal]

Wrong, Faith without ANY work is dead, (james said if I CLAIM to have faith but have ZERO WORKS)

James never said a thing about proper works, your adding to the word of God. and that is wrong.



Non of this matters, James said NO works, not proper works.

There are no examples of faith with zero works period. All faith has true works, not perfect works. Abraham had works, yet he committed many sins, David had works, yet he committed the worst sins man can commit.

I recommend you study what true faith is, Heb 11 would be a great start

Again, There is no such thing as faith apart from works, it is not there.

Jesus said that those who have believed HAVE DONE THE WORK OF THE HEAVENLY FATHER......why do most workers for dismiss this.........and a simple cup of cold water is noticed and rewarded..............

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:6, "Yahshua proclaimed to him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, except through Me."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd (4166 – poimén)."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 5:39, “You search the Scriptures, because you think you possess everlasting life in them. And these are the ones that bear witness of Me.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:26, “But the Comforter; the Holy Spirit which YHWH will send in My Name will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I (Yahshua/Jesus) have said to you.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 6:63, “It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (Instructions) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting.” [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”[/FONT]

 

[DJ2]

Wrong, Faith without ANY work is dead, (james said if I CLAIM to have faith but have ZERO WORKS)

James never said a thing about proper works, your adding to the word of God. and that is wrong.



Non of this matters, James said NO works, not proper works.

There are no examples of faith with zero works period. All faith has true works, not perfect works. Abraham had works, yet he committed many sins, David had works, yet he committed the worst sins man can commit.

I recommend you study what true faith is, Heb 11 would be a great start

Again, There is no such thing as faith apart from works, it is not there.

James never said a thing about proper works, your adding to the word of God. and that is wrong

James clearly speaks of the need for "proper works".
Abraham offering Issac was a proper work, a required act.
Rahab tying the red cord was a proper work, a required act.

Non of this matters, James said NO works, not proper works.

This is the crux of this thread. Are there any "required works" between us and salvation? The OP implies no, yet James 2:24 implies some type of works are needed. What acts are required is not mentioned but the examples used of Abraham and Rahab imply obeying direct commands are necessary.

Uzzah's faith was sincere but his lack of obeying the work of not touching the ark led to his demise.

This is the part you are missing. Not obeying God's commands does not disprove your faith but instead labels it a dead, meaningless faith without reward. Sincerity or not.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

James clearly speaks of the need for "proper works".
Abraham offering Issac was a proper work, a required act.
Rahab tying the red cord was a proper work, a required act.

it is obvious you have not studied the OT Abraham was considered righteous before Issaac was even conceived. In fact, AfTER abraham was considered righteous based on his faith (gen 15) He commited adultry with his servant, and bore the child of sin.

This is the crux of this thread. Are there any "required works" between us and salvation? The OP implies no, yet James 2:24 implies some type of works are needed. What acts are required is not mentioned but the examples used of Abraham and Rahab imply obeying direct commands are necessary.

Uzzah's faith was sincere but his lack of obeying the work of not touching the ark led to his demise.

This is the part you are missing. Not obeying God's commands does not disprove your faith but instead labels it a dead, meaningless faith without reward. Sincerity or not.

Lol. Again you need to study,

Noah built the ark BECAUSE HE HAD FAITH
Abraham did all his works BECAUSE HE HAD FAITH.

true faith works. period. We are saved by grace through faith NOT WORK lest anyone should boast.

You want to puff yourself up with your works, feel free. But as Paul said, Not before God, because abraham trusted God and it was credited him as righteousness.

it was not abrahams work that saved him, it was his LIVING faith.

 

[johnthebaptist]

Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Matt 10:37

Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Matt 10:38

As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.
Eph 4:1


All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.
2 Thes 1:5

Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy.
Rev 3:4

Amen. May we all walk and live is a way worthy of our Lord and King, Jesus Christ, our saviour
and friend, Amen.

 

[johnthebaptist]

Actually yes it does.

All have sinned and FALL SHORT of the glory of God.

Even Jesus said, Only God is good.

A legalist says they are made righteous by earning their salvation. I am not a legalist. I am a tax collector who got on my knees and cried out to God because I knew I was unworthy.

Can you tell me how a person is justified, declared righteous, so they can enter heaven?

I am not saying a person can be saved and continue to live or excuse their sin, So please stop wiht that strawman.

Jesus calls us to follow.

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Matt 7:13-14

Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice!
Phil 4:4

But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
1 Cor 15:56-58

For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
Matt 11:30

 

[mailmandan]

it is obvious you have not studied the OT Abraham was considered righteous before Issaac was even conceived. In fact, AfTER abraham was considered righteous based on his faith (gen 15) He commited adultry with his servant, and bore the child of sin.

Amen! In James 2:21, we notice that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, even many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22.

The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. He was "shown to be righteous."

So Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

Lol. Again you need to study,

Noah built the ark BECAUSE HE HAD FAITH
Abraham did all his works BECAUSE HE HAD FAITH.

true faith works. period. We are saved by grace through faith NOT WORK lest anyone should boast.

Amen! Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it.

You want to puff yourself up with your works, feel free. But as Paul said, Not before God, because abraham trusted God and it was credited him as righteousness.

it was not abrahams work that saved him, it was his LIVING faith.

Amen! Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

 

[Seohce]

You think? Thats your first problem, Your correct. The majority of us are SALVATIOn by faith alone, What we also are is of the FACT that FAITH is NEVER ALONE.





James is preaching against a CLAIMED FAITH, not FAITH ALONE. His point is that FAITH IS NEVER ALONE. I can claim faith till I am blue in the face. If I have no works (the BYPRODUCT OF FAITH) that claimed faiht is no faith at all, it is lifeless. It is DEAD.

No matter How bad you want him to. James does not contradict paul

Jesus said that those who have believed HAVE DONE THE WORK OF THE HEAVENLY FATHER......why do most workers for dismiss this.........and a simple cup of cold water is noticed and rewarded..............

John 6:28-29 Then they asked him, “WHAT MUST “WE” DO to do the works GOD REQUIRES?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: TO BELIEVE IN THE ONE HE HAS SENT.”

Q: WHO IS GOING TO BELIEVE IN THE ONE GOD HAS SENT?

A: NOTICE THAT THE QUESTION IS “WHAT MUST “WE” DO?” SO IT IS “WE” WHO IS GOING TO BELIEVE THE WORK OF GOD, SENDING HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON TO DIE ON THE CROSS FOR OUR SINS.

Q: DOES GOD REQUIRE US TO DO SOMETHING TO BE SAVED?

A: WE ARE TO BELIEVE IN THE ONE HE HAS SENT WHO IS THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, THE LAMB OF GOD WHO TAKES AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD, THE SON AND THE “WORD” OF GOD.

John 14:12 I tell you the truth, ANYONE WHO HAS FAITH IN ME WILL DO WHAT I HAVE BEEN DOING. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

John 14:31 BUT THE WORLD MUST LEARN THAT I LOVE THE FATHER and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me. “Come now; let us leave.

DO YOU LOVE THE FATHER?

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command.

1 John 5:3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

2 John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.



SALVATION (THROUGH JUSTIFICATION) IS NOT BY (OUR OWN) WORKS BUT THROUGH FAITH. BUT SALVATION IS NEVER VOID OF WORKS.

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD (james 2:14-26)

WORKS WITHOUT FAITH IS SIN (romans 14:23)

THOSE WHO HAS FAITH BUT HAS NO LOVE IS NOTHING.( 1 corinthians 13: 1-13)

Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by love.

James 2:22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

Matthew 19:25-26 When His disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, “WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED?” But Jesus beheld them and said unto them, “With men this is impossible, but WITH GOD all things are possible.”

GOD IS LOVE (1 john 4:8 & 16)

1 Corinthians 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But THE GREATEST OF THESE IS LOVE.



Romans 3:3-4 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! LET GOD BE TRUE, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”