Not By Works
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It matters tremendously. Are you hesitant to answer because you are well aware that you will be completely exposed as a "works for salvation" advocate?
Yes. The believer is saved even without working because Jesus accomplished all that was required on the cross. A Christian is declared righteous at the moment of belief and can never lose that righteousness, because it is the very righteousness of Jesus that is imputed. As long as Jesus is sinless, so is every believer.
Works play no part in receiving salvation, and they play no part in retaining salvation, because our salvation is a gift that cannot be earned in any way, shape, or form. Works only justify us before men and glorify our Father in heaven. They are also the basis for rewards at the Judgment Seat.
We still have free will and can refuse to work, but by doing so, we invite the chastisement of God, and the forfeiture of rewards.
Yes. The believer is saved even without working because Jesus accomplished all that was required on the cross. A Christian is declared righteous at the moment of belief and can never lose that righteousness, because it is the very righteousness of Jesus that is imputed. As long as Jesus is sinless, so is every believer.
Works play no part in receiving salvation, and they play no part in retaining salvation, because our salvation is a gift that cannot be earned in any way, shape, or form. Works only justify us before men and glorify our Father in heaven. They are also the basis for rewards at the Judgment Seat.
We still have free will and can refuse to work, but by doing so, we invite the chastisement of God, and the forfeiture of rewards.
Been looking over the last posts here: interesting discussion, debate (!!!!), to say the least.
Easy question, Ralph:
There is no such thing as a believer who has no works. If there is no works, then there is no faith (belief), and if there is no belief, there is no believer! So it is impossible to actually answer either of your questions because the situation you are speaking of does not exist. There is not such a thing as a (true) believer who does not have works.
I put "true" in parentheses only to clarify. There is no difference between a true believer and a believer.
Easy question, Ralph:
There is no such thing as a believer who has no works. If there is no works, then there is no faith (belief), and if there is no belief, there is no believer! So it is impossible to actually answer either of your questions because the situation you are speaking of does not exist. There is not such a thing as a (true) believer who does not have works.
I put "true" in parentheses only to clarify. There is no difference between a true believer and a believer.
Your question does not compute. It misses the mark of the intrinsic nature of the born again Child of God. Does a fish have to swim to prove he is a fish?
I have posted before what JESUS says is the work we need to do. Why do you not believe?
[h=1]John 6:28-29New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][FONT="]28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”[/FONT]
[FONT="]29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
If THIS is not the work that proves we are His Children, then please tell me what works DO prove that?[/FONT]
read this very slowly- not everyone who claims to be a believer is one .
read that again. then, stop trying to judge everyone. because there are real believers who struggle with sin, then they are fakers who call Jesus's name, but he is not Lord of their life.
only God knows the heart. only God can rightly judge.
here is your answer. do you accept it?
read that again. then, stop trying to judge everyone. because there are real believers who struggle with sin, then they are fakers who call Jesus's name, but he is not Lord of their life.
only God knows the heart. only God can rightly judge.
here is your answer. do you accept it?
WHAT WE BELIEVE, is their are FAR FEWER who Really are Saved, than most expect.
Most people who believe their works count for Salvation, are not really Saved, even though they think they are.
Most people who believe and do nothing, not submitting to the Lord, are not really Saved, even though they think they are.
Genuine SALVATION are NOT THE MANY, but the FEW WHO REALLY FIND IT.
Matthew 7:7-23 (HCSB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] “Keep asking, and it will be given to you. Keep searching, and you will find. Keep knocking, and the door will be opened to you.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For everyone who asks receives, and the one who searches finds, and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] What man among you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?
[SUP]11 [/SUP] If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore, whatever you want others to do for you, do also the same for them—this is the Law and the Prophets.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
AND look at how you preach the GOSPEL, not with the importance the LORD, put on KNOWING HIM.
John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.
John 10:27-30 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] The Father and I are one.”
YOU HAVE MISSED THE WHOLE LESSON. You ARE putting the emphasis on the WRONG part of what HE SAYS IN SCRIPTURE. YOU PUT THE EMPHASIS ON DOING, NOT ON KNOWING HIM INTIMATELY. If you KNOW HIM intimately, you will automatically obey HIM, because you will LOVE HIM.
ALL YOUR HARPING, and I do not think you have ever said with this kind of meaning, I KNOW HIM.
LOOK AT THE PARABLE OF TEN VIRGINS:
Matthew 25:1-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] “Then the kingdom of heaven will be like 10 virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the groom.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Five of them were foolish and five were sensible.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] When the foolish took their lamps, they didn’t take olive oil with them.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But the sensible ones took oil in their flasks with their lamps.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Since the groom was delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] “In the middle of the night there was a shout: ‘Here’s the groom! Come out to meet him.’
[SUP]7 [/SUP] “Then all those virgins got up and trimmed their lamps.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But the foolish ones said to the sensible ones, ‘Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’
[SUP]9 [/SUP] “The sensible ones answered, ‘No, there won’t be enough for us and for you. Go instead to those who sell, and buy oil for yourselves.’
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “When they had gone to buy some, the groom arrived. Then those who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet, and the door was shut.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] “Later the rest of the virgins also came and said, ‘Master, master, open up for us!’
[SUP]12 [/SUP] “But he replied, ‘I assure you: I do not know you!’
[SUP]13 [/SUP] “Therefore be alert, because you don’t know either the day or the hour.
NOTICE, they are called Virgins, all doing the same thing, obedience and serving the LORD, BUT WHAT DO THEY LACK?
That Inner Personal Love Relationship with the LORD. That is how you become SAVED forever. And you put the WRONG Emphasis on Doing, WITHOUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. I repeat: "IF YOU HAVE A GENUINE PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP LORD, willingly submitting to HIS LORDSHIP, out of LOVE FOR HIM, then Obedience will be the NATURAL BYPRODUCT OF LOVING HIM. And if we stumble and fall, we get up, confess it as sin, and go right back to obeying HIM out of LOVE.
Most people who believe their works count for Salvation, are not really Saved, even though they think they are.
Most people who believe and do nothing, not submitting to the Lord, are not really Saved, even though they think they are.
Genuine SALVATION are NOT THE MANY, but the FEW WHO REALLY FIND IT.
Matthew 7:7-23 (HCSB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] “Keep asking, and it will be given to you. Keep searching, and you will find. Keep knocking, and the door will be opened to you.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For everyone who asks receives, and the one who searches finds, and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] What man among you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?
[SUP]11 [/SUP] If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore, whatever you want others to do for you, do also the same for them—this is the Law and the Prophets.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
AND look at how you preach the GOSPEL, not with the importance the LORD, put on KNOWING HIM.
John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.
John 10:27-30 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] The Father and I are one.”
YOU HAVE MISSED THE WHOLE LESSON. You ARE putting the emphasis on the WRONG part of what HE SAYS IN SCRIPTURE. YOU PUT THE EMPHASIS ON DOING, NOT ON KNOWING HIM INTIMATELY. If you KNOW HIM intimately, you will automatically obey HIM, because you will LOVE HIM.
ALL YOUR HARPING, and I do not think you have ever said with this kind of meaning, I KNOW HIM.
LOOK AT THE PARABLE OF TEN VIRGINS:
Matthew 25:1-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] “Then the kingdom of heaven will be like 10 virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the groom.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Five of them were foolish and five were sensible.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] When the foolish took their lamps, they didn’t take olive oil with them.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But the sensible ones took oil in their flasks with their lamps.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Since the groom was delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] “In the middle of the night there was a shout: ‘Here’s the groom! Come out to meet him.’
[SUP]7 [/SUP] “Then all those virgins got up and trimmed their lamps.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But the foolish ones said to the sensible ones, ‘Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’
[SUP]9 [/SUP] “The sensible ones answered, ‘No, there won’t be enough for us and for you. Go instead to those who sell, and buy oil for yourselves.’
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “When they had gone to buy some, the groom arrived. Then those who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet, and the door was shut.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] “Later the rest of the virgins also came and said, ‘Master, master, open up for us!’
[SUP]12 [/SUP] “But he replied, ‘I assure you: I do not know you!’
[SUP]13 [/SUP] “Therefore be alert, because you don’t know either the day or the hour.
NOTICE, they are called Virgins, all doing the same thing, obedience and serving the LORD, BUT WHAT DO THEY LACK?
That Inner Personal Love Relationship with the LORD. That is how you become SAVED forever. And you put the WRONG Emphasis on Doing, WITHOUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. I repeat: "IF YOU HAVE A GENUINE PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP LORD, willingly submitting to HIS LORDSHIP, out of LOVE FOR HIM, then Obedience will be the NATURAL BYPRODUCT OF LOVING HIM. And if we stumble and fall, we get up, confess it as sin, and go right back to obeying HIM out of LOVE.
R
I put 'believer' in single quotes to show I'm talking about the one who professes to be a believer aside from whether or not they truly are or not. So the question is quite legit.
And I see your vote must be for the second one. The 'believer' who has no works is not born again. That's what I've been saying in this thread, because that's what the Bible teaches. But as you've probably noticed I'm being beat up for saying it.
And I see your vote must be for the second one. The 'believer' who has no works is not born again. That's what I've been saying in this thread, because that's what the Bible teaches. But as you've probably noticed I'm being beat up for saying it.
R
Not bearing fruit is a sin. The question is, do we live in a life of fruitlessness as a matter of lifestyle, like an unbeliever? That is the condition of the person Paul says will not inherit the kingdom. Grace is not a license so we can live in our old lives unchanged and still inherit the kingdom. But that is what many Christians think today. They think once saved always saved makes it so they can be unchanged and they will still be saved when Jesus comes back. They do not know that is the new once saved always saved doctrine. The traditional once saved always saved doctrine says the person who is still in their old life and/or does not endure to the end is not born again to begin with.
Christians have no sin, Ralph. The blood of Jesus washed them all away. Forgiven. Gone. Forever.
Endure to the end? You sound like a Calvinist. Jesus endured all that was required to save us, and to keep us, until the end. Yet we still have the old, sinful nature to contend with, Ralph. That's why you commit sins daily. Of course, when you commit them, it's not "living" in them - only when others do.
Endure to the end? You sound like a Calvinist. Jesus endured all that was required to save us, and to keep us, until the end. Yet we still have the old, sinful nature to contend with, Ralph. That's why you commit sins daily. Of course, when you commit them, it's not "living" in them - only when others do.
N
amen
otherwise there would be contradictions in the bible
but there is not
it flows in perfect harmony
1 John 3:9
9*Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
__
1 John 2
2*My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2*And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
otherwise there would be contradictions in the bible
but there is not
it flows in perfect harmony
1 John 3:9
9*Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
__
1 John 2
2*My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2*And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
N
romans 7
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Ralph: There is one sense I agree with you: in this that a true faith will produce works (though to different degrees in different people).
I think you are getting pounded because you come across saying a Christian has to do good works. You can't come across with that kind of emphasis without making works a necessary part of what saves you (and it is not works that brings salvation).
We are saved by grace through faith: then we are God's workmanship. Works are a part of the equation, but are not the cause of our salvation.
Some here would make works seem irrelevant and disconnected to faith (or at least it seems that way to some of the rest of us)!
Paul and James come at faith and works from different angles: but I am convinced that what they say agrees together.
In any public forum on a discussion of faith and works you will find "Pauls" and "James" coming at it from different angles. And then you will have the "hyper" Pauls and the "hyper" James! LOL! - and then probably some that are more than "hyper"
Let each be the judge of his own view! I will let you decide who is where in the spectrum of views!
