Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
J

joefizz

Guest
You can't bring yourself to say it, can you?

They are UNSAVED. And this is what I'm trying to point out in this thread. People say believers WILL have works but then turn right around and say the Christian who doesn't have works is saved because salvation is not by works, so works don't matter, and they got saved the moment they first believed and you can't lose it once you have it. All of which negates the Biblical truth that the person who doesn't have works IS NOT SAVED.

See, the new once saved always saved doctrine is built on the traditional argument that the born again person can not lose his salvation but which ignores John's other teaching that says the person who has no works is not born again. It's entirely inconsistent, but that is the contradictory doctrine that is seducing the church at this time.
Because it's not true,it seems you can't understand that once saved you are saved,you can't become unsaved once more,a saved person is not an unbeliever and will undoubtedly have works,and an unbeliever has not works that please God/Jesus,for unbelievers worketh iniquity and the saved believers worketh righteous works through the holy spirit.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
Yes, that is your preaching. But I think creating an image of God after the likeness of some long haired playgirl centerfold and placing Jesus name on it is demeaning. I think judging God and His instructions as bad, and creating your own religious practices and calling them good, is demeaning. I believe twisting one sentence from an Apostle to make Jesus of the Bible a liar is demeaning.

But it's your Salvation, you preach what you want.
Three lies in this post above...I have done none of the things you accuse of....how does lying while accusing make you righteous?
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
So true, brother @dcontroversal
No one can boast about their salvation saying they deserve it.
No matter how many righteous works we do, we still sin against God. But, it's because of what Jesus did out of love that we are saved.
Jesus is Lord!
Amen Bro.......you are 100% correct....it is all by his power, work, faith, sacrifice, obedience etc....ALL GLORY goes to God and the bible is clear....grace or works....and my bible states Grace and Not by works of righteousness which we have done...!
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
Amen. We are saved not by works, but by faith. More importantly, however, we are saved by Grace alone, and through our faith we are saved. However, we are not saved by faith alone (James 2:14-26)
14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?
15 And if a brother or sister be naked and want daily food:
16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?
17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.
24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?
25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers and sending them out another way?
26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.


As Paul also describes how we are to approach this in Philippians 2:12:
So, then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I an absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

It is important to note that Faith is the most important aspect. Without faith, works alone is pointless, but without works, faith is dead. It is necessary to first have the Faith in Jesus Christ in his death and resurrection, FIRST and foremost for any Christian. However, it is important to note that when Paul directly refers to "Faith over works" he is particularly talking about works of the LAW referring to, of course, the Mosaic Law of the Old Testament, and is directly referring to the Council of Jerusalem which was all about the Mosaic Law and whether or not Gentile Believers would have to conform to that law. Paul was emphasizing his point that we are not saved by the LAW anymore, and the works that are prescribed, but by Faith in Christ Jesus and the New Covenant, and not the old.

Galatians 6:2, however, even talks about the "Law of Christ".

Bear one another's burdens, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ.


The Bible is also clear on saying that simply having said you have Faith is not enough.

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord', will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of Father in heaven.

And that is coming straight from Jesus. Even more alarming, as we all should be, is the passages later in Matthew:

Matthew 25:31-46

Matthew 25:31–46 (LEB)
The Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Now when the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. [SUP]32 [/SUP]And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them from one another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. [SUP]33 [/SUP]And he will place the sheep on his right and the goats on the left. [SUP]34 [/SUP]Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world! [SUP]35 [/SUP]For I was hungry and you gave me something* to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something* to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me as a guest, [SUP]36 [/SUP]I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you cared for me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ [SUP]37 [/SUP]Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you,* or thirsty and give you something* to drink? [SUP]38 [/SUP]And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you* as a guest, or naked and clothe you?* [SUP]39 [/SUP]And when did we see you sick or in prison and come to you?’ [SUP]40 [/SUP]And the king will answer and* say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, in as much as you did it* to one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did it* to me.’ [SUP]41 [/SUP]Then he will also say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! [SUP]42 [/SUP]For I was hungry and you did not give me anything* to eat, I was thirsty and you did not give me anything* to drink, [SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger and you did not welcome me as a guest, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not care for me.’ [SUP]44 [/SUP]Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and not serve you?[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly I say to you, in as much as you did not do it* to one of the least of these, you did not do it* to me.’ [SUP]46 [/SUP]And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Wrong......faith plus works for or to keep is a false gospel...See Galatians 1 and 3 and then apply context to James.....!
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
Seoche

I would love to discuss with you, but this is confusing. Can you stick to one topic at a time with a short explanation? Otherwise, I will just gloss over your posts without reading. As most will do too.
They are so full of error and false accusations I quit reading them for the most part....scan one every now and then, but nothing ever changes....same drivel
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Deuteronomy 32:3-4, "For I will proclaim YHWH's great Name! Praise the greatness of YHWH! He is The Rock. His works are perfect; YHWH's ways are justice indeed! He is the Father of truth, and does no wrong. Upright and Just is He."[/FONT]
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
1 John 4
4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

_______________

what a beautiful morning


God bless all my brothers and sisters annnnd well

to the neighbors and enemies

i hope He opens your eyes to the truth so you can stop being tossed around by every wind and stand boldly in faith



i know not everyone in error here is a wolf though....

there are also blind sheep in the mix...
sapplings who just dont yet have full understanding
_______________



Romans 4
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


____________

Grace is not a license to sin
as some like to suggest


but it is not your works that
provide OR keep salvation

ever

plain and simple

it is the gift of God to whosoever believes by grace

________________


John 3:15-17
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

____________
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
____________
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,501
9,015
113
The church likes the 'you can't lose your salvation' part. But they have rejected the part that makes works necessary, the part that says the person who isn't living in obedience is not saved. So we have this new doctrine of once saved always saved. One that removes the necessity for obedience.
You use "church" here as a pejorative. The truth of course, is the exact opposite.

The "church" YOU speak of LOVES to have it's congregants live in a fearful state that they will do or NOT do something that will get them cast into hell.

This is how that type of church derives it's power. Both traditionally, and today.

God's born again Children, whom He will NEVER cast into hell, are eternally secure in His Son.
Please don't deny the redemptive work of His Son.

If your church is telling you that you must do works to be or stay saved, you should find a Church that preaches the TRUE Gospel, that will enable you to do the work God has prepared for you, with a joyful, thankful heart.
 
Last edited:
R

Ralph-

Guest
You can't bring yourself to say it, can you?

They are UNSAVED. And this is what I'm trying to point out in this thread. People say believers WILL have works but then turn right around and say the Christian who doesn't have works is saved because salvation is not by works, so works don't matter, and they got saved the moment they first believed and you can't lose it once you have it. All of which negates the Biblical truth that the person who doesn't have works IS NOT SAVED.

See, the new once saved always saved doctrine is built on the traditional argument that the born again person can not lose his salvation but which ignores John's other teaching that says the person who has no works is not born again. It's entirely inconsistent, but that is the contradictory doctrine that is seducing the church at this time.
Because it's not true,it seems you can't understand that once saved you are saved,you can't become unsaved once more,a saved person is not an unbeliever and will undoubtedly have works,and an unbeliever has not works that please God/Jesus,for unbelievers worketh iniquity and the saved believers worketh righteous works through the holy spirit.
What are you saying is not true exactly?

Are you trying to say there is no such thing as a believer with no works, but at the same time suggesting the believer with no works is saved because of once saved always saved?

Honest questions. I'm just giving you the courtesy of attempting to understand your argument so I can respond appropriately.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
God's born again Children, whom He will NEVER cast into hell, are eternally secure in His Son.
Please don't deny the redemptive work of His Son.
Does this mean the believer can have no works and he is still saved, or is it that the 'believer' who has no works is actually not really born again? Which do you believe?


If your church is telling you that you must do works to be or stay saved
No, you're not understanding.
You have to have works OR ELSE YOU'RE NOT REALLY A BELIEVER.

That's a different argument than saying you have to have works to be saved and stay saved as you think I'm saying. In fact, that's the traditional once saved always saved argument but which seems to be being discarded by the church in favor of the new once saved always saved argument that says you are saved even if you have no works because you can not lose your salvation. That's making grace a license to sin but nobody wants to admit it. At least the old once saved always saved teaching did not make grace a license to sin.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,999
113
Remember, you bailed by putting me on ignore. You certainly weren't as forceful as you think.

Why do you people stop talking about the topic and resort to attacks?
I put you on ignore because you absolutely simply brush off any scripture that contradicts your narrative, and the fact that you lied about what I believe. You have been called out time and time again regarding your lying, but you don't have the moral fortitude to admit it or apologize.

No, I meant it. p4t is like a rabid dog. I was not correcting him. Even Lotucus (and BillG) recognized his abusive, abrasive manner. They are witness to that. No attacks here, bud.
You claim "no attacks" yet call him a rabid dog again. (smh)

Now what you going to say? More fault finding? How does doing that support your argument? It doesn't of course.
Ralph, you are the absolute King of fault finding. Seriously.

I don't have the time to read through the whole thread, so if you answered this before, please indulge me anyway.

Do you believe a born again Christian can lose their salvation for any reason?
 
Last edited:
R

Ralph-

Guest
Wrong......faith plus works for or to keep is a false gospel...See Galatians 1 and 3 and then apply context to James.....!
Then what do you believe?

Is the 'believer' who has no works saved despite having no works because of 'once saved always saved'? Or is the 'believer' who has no works not really born again?
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Do you believe a born again Christian can lose their salvation for any reason?
It doesn't matter. That's my honest answer. What I believe is the person who has no works when Jesus comes back is not born again.

So I'll ask you.

Is the 'believer' who has no works saved despite having no works because of 'once saved always saved'?

Or is the 'believer' who has no works not really born again?

Which do you say is true?
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
Does this mean the believer can have no works and he is still saved, or is it that the 'believer' who has no works is actually not really born again?
You've asked this to the point of ad nauseam, and have been answered many times already. How many more times do you need to ask and receive the same answer before you stop asking in pretense?
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
You've asked this to the point of ad nauseam, and have been answered many times already. How many more times do you need to ask and receive the same answer before you stop asking in pretense?
Since you say you are Calvinist the answer is easy for you, at least it should be. Calvinist agree with me, and I with them. The person who has no works is not born again. You being Calvinist, if you stick to your doctrine, agree with that. BUT, for some reason you resist the passages of scripture that I've been sharing that say that. Why is that? I'm serious. I want to know why.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
R

Ralph-

Guest
Ralph as a kid training for the christianchat forum.



How about you?

Is the 'believer' who has no works saved despite having no works because of 'once saved always saved'?

Or is the 'believer' who has no works not really born again?