Not By Works
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I have trouble expressing myself properly. Let me try it this way.
God knows all things. I don't think you agree with this. Scripture attests to the fact however that God knew all things from eternity past (before creation). He created the world knowing Adam would disobey, he created the world knowing the Jews would have Jesus crucified, he created the world knowing me and you would sin and rebel against him, he created the world knowing people (all people) would reject him, yet he created us anyway and said let it be so.
In his mercy, he chose some out of this fallen people to save. He predestined them to life through Christ. This is clearly taught in scripture.
The God you present is one who is impotent and only knows the future up to the point of infinite possible choices we can make and acts based on what we might possibly choose. This isn't scriptural. It would also make perfectly fulfilled prophecies impossible. It make God subject to what we choose and make us sovereign. God is sovereign. Not us.
God knows all things. I don't think you agree with this. Scripture attests to the fact however that God knew all things from eternity past (before creation). He created the world knowing Adam would disobey, he created the world knowing the Jews would have Jesus crucified, he created the world knowing me and you would sin and rebel against him, he created the world knowing people (all people) would reject him, yet he created us anyway and said let it be so.
In his mercy, he chose some out of this fallen people to save. He predestined them to life through Christ. This is clearly taught in scripture.
The God you present is one who is impotent and only knows the future up to the point of infinite possible choices we can make and acts based on what we might possibly choose. This isn't scriptural. It would also make perfectly fulfilled prophecies impossible. It make God subject to what we choose and make us sovereign. God is sovereign. Not us.
God didn't do a new thing with the nations He already made a way for them in Israel. One instruction for you and the sojourner among you. This means some of the Egyptians too kept the law of God. It wasn't that they failed to kept the law of God it was that they didn't understand or mix it with believing Elohim would be faithful. Like the man who baried his talents they didn't believe God so He couldn't credit them with faithfulness.
Yes, as was planned from the beginning. Do you think he just all of a sudden decided to do this out of the blue? Again, what happened to those who were outside of the chosen Israel? Those who don't get a chance to hear the Gospel? Is it unfair for God to not have given them a chance? Or could it be that no one deserves anything from God, but in his mercy and wishing to be glorified, he chose some out of the world to save?
1 Timothy 2:3-5New International Version (NIV)
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
2 Thessalonians 2:10New International Version (NIV)
10*and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
2 Peter 3:9New International Version (NIV)
9*The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Explain these to me then
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
2 Thessalonians 2:10New International Version (NIV)
10*and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
2 Peter 3:9New International Version (NIV)
9*The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Explain these to me then
You say it would make things impossible to give man free will but is anything impossible for God? You say God cant allow prophecy to happen through mans choices? I always had agreed that God is all knowing. We also see God can limit his power to allow free will also. The whole reason for a good God to allow evil is because of his limiting of self to respect free will, which is the reason for evil to exist
All doesn't always mean all or all people would be saved according to certain passages. 1 Timothy verse 2 presents the context of kings and those in high places being saved. Compare to Revelation 7:9-10, Mat. 3:5-6, 1 Cor. 15:22, and so on.
Let's look at 1 Cor 15:22 for an example:
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
Are all made alive post-cross? Are all saved? No.
Interesting choice of scripture to prove your point. Notice those who are deceived are also held accountable and judged by God. We are responsible for our rejection of God. All people reject God. We are born rebels. Everyone refuses to love the truth without God's intervention via the Gospel message and the gift of faith because we are all fallen sons and daughters of Adam. If you keep reading in that chapter, you will also realize that God deludes these people and makes it impossible for them to come back to a knowledge of the truth. So much for their free will.
2 Thes. 2
11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The church is being addressed. Contrast this verse with Romans 9, Romans 8:28-30, Eph. 1:5, 2 Timothy 1:9, Eph 1:11-12, Proverbs 16:4, Acts 13:48, and on and on. How do you reconcile these verses with your beliefs?
You still haven't answered my questions. What happened to those outside of Israel for thousands of years? What happens to people who never get a chance to hear the Gospel? How do you reconcile that with your beliefs? From your position, your only choices are God is not powerful enough to save all he wishes to save, or God is unfair. Which is it?
Let's look at 1 Cor 15:22 for an example:
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
Are all made alive post-cross? Are all saved? No.
Interesting choice of scripture to prove your point. Notice those who are deceived are also held accountable and judged by God. We are responsible for our rejection of God. All people reject God. We are born rebels. Everyone refuses to love the truth without God's intervention via the Gospel message and the gift of faith because we are all fallen sons and daughters of Adam. If you keep reading in that chapter, you will also realize that God deludes these people and makes it impossible for them to come back to a knowledge of the truth. So much for their free will.
2 Thes. 2
11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The church is being addressed. Contrast this verse with Romans 9, Romans 8:28-30, Eph. 1:5, 2 Timothy 1:9, Eph 1:11-12, Proverbs 16:4, Acts 13:48, and on and on. How do you reconcile these verses with your beliefs?
You still haven't answered my questions. What happened to those outside of Israel for thousands of years? What happens to people who never get a chance to hear the Gospel? How do you reconcile that with your beliefs? From your position, your only choices are God is not powerful enough to save all he wishes to save, or God is unfair. Which is it?
You claimed God knows infinite possibilities and makes decisions based on what we choose. This isn't the idea that is presented in scripture. God had a definite plan based on what he already knew would happen. He created everything with one possible outcome, not infinite possibilities. Everything happens as it should and every choice you and I make was already known from eternity past. There is no chance that we had another path that was possible to take. God is not subjected to time, space, and possibilities. He created everything knowing for certain the outcome.
1. Your first question is old testament which excluded gentiles and we saw the gentile rehab help Joshuas spies. Why did she help them because she believed in the God of Isreal and so her life was spared.
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2. People that do not hear the gospel are not held to a law they never heard. For it was the law that gives the acknowledgment of sin.
But we also have a moral law in us all before ever hearing of any law.
3. My belief is God chose all of mankind to be saved by having faith in our savior Jesus Christ and his sacrifice and resurrection.
He gave mankind 2 choices to continue living in flesh or have faith in Christ.
This Calvinism stuff is getting old.
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2. People that do not hear the gospel are not held to a law they never heard. For it was the law that gives the acknowledgment of sin.
But we also have a moral law in us all before ever hearing of any law.
3. My belief is God chose all of mankind to be saved by having faith in our savior Jesus Christ and his sacrifice and resurrection.
He gave mankind 2 choices to continue living in flesh or have faith in Christ.
This Calvinism stuff is getting old.
1. This doesn't answer the question. Israel was chosen, other nations were not. It was possible for others to become part of Israel and salvation was always by faith in God and his promises. But the fact remains that not all were given this opportunity. Was that unfair of God to not give them that chance?
2. So people are saved apart from the Gospel? Where is this in scripture? You think we can be saved by being moral people apart from the Gospel?
3. If God chose all of mankind to be saved, I can guarantee that all of mankind would be saved.
Your views are inconsistent with scripture and you can't even refute the ones that plainly show God's sovereign choice over his creation.
But, it seems we won't agree, so it's been a nice discussion and hope we can end it with no ill will.
2. So people are saved apart from the Gospel? Where is this in scripture? You think we can be saved by being moral people apart from the Gospel?
3. If God chose all of mankind to be saved, I can guarantee that all of mankind would be saved.
Your views are inconsistent with scripture and you can't even refute the ones that plainly show God's sovereign choice over his creation.
But, it seems we won't agree, so it's been a nice discussion and hope we can end it with no ill will.
“NOT BY WORKS” does not mean it”s not by any kind of work done by whoever, but iit iis rather NOT OF OURSELVES. Salvation is in itself a WORK, so how can it be not by works? This proves that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD and that SALVATION IS NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”
James 2:14-26 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
...Can anybody here claim to have been saved without HEARING and BELIEVING the gospel of our salvation(eph 1:13) thru the (foolishness) of PREACHING(1cor 1:21) by those who are in the body of Christ (the Church)(1cor ch.12)who are His fellow WORKERS(servants)? (1cor 3:9, luke 10:2)
1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
Luke 10:2 He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.
Romans 10:14-17 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
CAN FAITH VOID OF WORKS SAVE US?
Matthew 25:45-46 “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ THEN THEY WILL GO AWAY TO ETERNAL PUNISHMENT but the righteous to eternal life.”
1 Corinthians 4:7,20 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not? For the kingdom of God is NOT A MATTER OF TALK BUT OF POWER.(Ref:2tim 1:7-9, 1cor 1:18-31))
James 2:14-26 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
...Can anybody here claim to have been saved without HEARING and BELIEVING the gospel of our salvation(eph 1:13) thru the (foolishness) of PREACHING(1cor 1:21) by those who are in the body of Christ (the Church)(1cor ch.12)who are His fellow WORKERS(servants)? (1cor 3:9, luke 10:2)
1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
Luke 10:2 He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.
Romans 10:14-17 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
CAN FAITH VOID OF WORKS SAVE US?
Matthew 25:45-46 “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ THEN THEY WILL GO AWAY TO ETERNAL PUNISHMENT but the righteous to eternal life.”
1 Corinthians 4:7,20 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not? For the kingdom of God is NOT A MATTER OF TALK BUT OF POWER.(Ref:2tim 1:7-9, 1cor 1:18-31))
Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.—The process already summed up under these two phrases is now resolved more fully and exactly into its parts, with the inference suggested that to those who are under the divine guidance at every step in their career nothing can act but for good. The two phrases indicate two distinct steps. God, in His infinite foreknowledge, knew that certain persons would submit to be conformed to the image of His Son, and he predestined them for this.When we argue deductively from the omniscience and omnipotence of God, human free-will seems to be obliterated. On the other hand, when we argue deductively from human free-will, the divine foreknowledge and power to determine action seem to be excluded. And yet both truths must be received without detriment to each other. We neither know strictly what God’s omnipotence and omniscience are (according to a more exact use of language, we ought to say, perhaps, “perfect power and knowledge”—power and knowledge such as would belong to what we are incapable of conceiving, a perfect Being), nor do we know what human free-will is in itself. It is a necessary postulate if there is to be any synthesis of human life at all; for without it there can be no distinction between good and bad at all. But we do not really know more than that it is that hypothetical faculty in man by virtue of which he is a responsible agent.
-Ellicots commentary.
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
John 3:16Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
16 “For God loved the world in this way:[a] He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
So God is all knowing and he knows who will be in the book of life. We know God has called all to believe John 3:16. So free will is within Gods plan but God also knows who will choose to live in faith and will not.
2 Peter 3:9New International Version (NIV)
9*The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
God's ways are in truth incomprehensible by human minds. Free will exists but God is all knowing and predestined that men would be saved by the blood of Christ. This was predestined and within Gods plan to save all who believe and who answered the call by the blood of Christ.
It boils down to this is a pointless argument trying to understand the way of God as for we will probably get a reply like this one in Job.
Job 38Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
The Lord Speaks
38 Then the Lord answered Job from the whirlwind. He said:
2 Who is this who obscures My counsel
with ignorant words?
3 Get ready to answer Me like a man;
when I question you, you will inform Me.
4 Where were you when I established the earth?
Tell Me, if you have[a] understanding.
5 Who fixed its dimensions? Certainly you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 What supports its foundations?
Or who laid its cornerstone
And since we know God can erase names from the book of life is another indicator that free will still exist.
Revelation 3:5Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
5 In the same way, the victor will be dressed in white clothes, and I will never erase his name from the book of life but will acknowledge his name before My Father and before His angels.
1.Its Gods will not mine in the OT. But now the Gentiles are included. So next
2. Well, I think we don't rightly know since we are not told in scripture what happens to people that don't hear the gospel. My own opinion would be since it's the law that condemns us and makes sin known, then to me, if some desolate tribe in the amazon has not heard the gospel or even know what sin is then I don't know what God would do to them. But it's kinda cool that even the most desolate tribes still feel the need to worship something.
3. God chose all who believe.
My views are backed by scripture except of course our opinions on the will of God which is only opinions on both our parts.
But we have scripture saying all who believe and predestine so just like in my time study free will exists but God is all knowing and to what degree does all that mix? WE DONT KNOW.
So I am dropping it because its a waste of time.
2. Well, I think we don't rightly know since we are not told in scripture what happens to people that don't hear the gospel. My own opinion would be since it's the law that condemns us and makes sin known, then to me, if some desolate tribe in the amazon has not heard the gospel or even know what sin is then I don't know what God would do to them. But it's kinda cool that even the most desolate tribes still feel the need to worship something.
3. God chose all who believe.
My views are backed by scripture except of course our opinions on the will of God which is only opinions on both our parts.
But we have scripture saying all who believe and predestine so just like in my time study free will exists but God is all knowing and to what degree does all that mix? WE DONT KNOW.
So I am dropping it because its a waste of time.
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[SUP]Romans 8
28 [/SUP]And we know that all things work together for good to those who love <obey> God, to those who are the called according to His purpose <to believe in Him, and to do the will of the Father>. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed <become like. do the will of. obey> to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
The topics of Election, Faith and Salvation can easily be confused.
1) Election : God chooses for himself a people to save. And by implication others are not saved. Read Romans 9 Carefully.
2) Only God knows who His Elect are. He knows the end from the beginning.
3) We, as His disciples, DO NOT KNOW who the Elect are. Only God knows and only God can judge.
4) We as disciples go out to the whole world and make disciples, baptising them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things He has commanded (Matt 29v19,20).
5) The disciples don't know who will believe, but then shrink back in future. But we pray and hope. We heed the warnings written in the word, and we warn others, not to neglect so great a salvation (Hebrews 2v3)
6) Those who shrink back WERE NEVER ELECT by God. Were they at any point justified? Yes, because they at one point believed in the saving work of Christ, and on His name. But they became irresponsible and eventually their faith was shipwrecked. Their faith that they had before can no longer save them, because they no longer have faith.
7) To those who OVERCOME, He will allow to eat from the tree of life (Rev 2v7). The Overcomers are the Elect. This is where Salvation and Election meet. For this is where glorification happens Romans 8v30.
28 [/SUP]And we know that all things work together for good to those who love <obey> God, to those who are the called according to His purpose <to believe in Him, and to do the will of the Father>. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed <become like. do the will of. obey> to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
The topics of Election, Faith and Salvation can easily be confused.
1) Election : God chooses for himself a people to save. And by implication others are not saved. Read Romans 9 Carefully.
2) Only God knows who His Elect are. He knows the end from the beginning.
3) We, as His disciples, DO NOT KNOW who the Elect are. Only God knows and only God can judge.
4) We as disciples go out to the whole world and make disciples, baptising them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things He has commanded (Matt 29v19,20).
5) The disciples don't know who will believe, but then shrink back in future. But we pray and hope. We heed the warnings written in the word, and we warn others, not to neglect so great a salvation (Hebrews 2v3)
6) Those who shrink back WERE NEVER ELECT by God. Were they at any point justified? Yes, because they at one point believed in the saving work of Christ, and on His name. But they became irresponsible and eventually their faith was shipwrecked. Their faith that they had before can no longer save them, because they no longer have faith.
7) To those who OVERCOME, He will allow to eat from the tree of life (Rev 2v7). The Overcomers are the Elect. This is where Salvation and Election meet. For this is where glorification happens Romans 8v30.
A impossible theological bind
An apostate cannot be a believer, because then apostates would enter heaven.
So if you loose your faith in this world of ideas, you never had it in the first place.
By definition therefore only those who have faith to the end are true believers.
Only the chosen will do this.
It is strange that actually if you accept apostacy means you never believed in
the first place, you can loose your apparent salvation. I suggest therefore
rather than being certain you have arrived, you learn how to follow and walk
in Christ, because the Father will throw body and soul into hell if you do not
find the way of the lamb.
An apostate cannot be a believer, because then apostates would enter heaven.
So if you loose your faith in this world of ideas, you never had it in the first place.
By definition therefore only those who have faith to the end are true believers.
Only the chosen will do this.
It is strange that actually if you accept apostacy means you never believed in
the first place, you can loose your apparent salvation. I suggest therefore
rather than being certain you have arrived, you learn how to follow and walk
in Christ, because the Father will throw body and soul into hell if you do not
find the way of the lamb.