Not By Works

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NoNameMcgee

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May 6, 2017
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matthew 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
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John 10
10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.




Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
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Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
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Isaiah 53:11 - He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
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Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
1 john 5

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

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John 3:15-17
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


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john 6

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

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Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God

_________

Romans 11:29
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.





praise Jesus for His imputed righteousness to whosoever believes on His name
;)
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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Do you have a verse where it says we won't be at the Great White Throne judgment?
I can add........

7th trump saints, prophets and all who fear God young and old rewarded

Great White Throne (topic at hand) after the bowls or viols of God's wrath which is after the 7th trump and is initiated by 7th trump and after Jesus reigns 1000 years on the throne of David his father.

The afore mentioned are already in glorified bodies and have received their reward.

1 plus 1 plus 1 = 3
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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An impure man will say I know my impurity, how dare these shinning lights claim
they have anything better than me, its garbage, they are just stealing from Christ
and devaluing what He is offering which is blasphemy.

What the impure man does not see is the shinning light comes from Jesus, their
purity is Christ at work in them, their works are His works working through their
lives, and the glory they bring, is glory to the King of Kings.

But the lostness of sinners will always distort and lie about what is and how
it works so that they as sinners are innocents, victims of circumstance, and
they will be rescued because they are not guilty, Christ has taken that away.
So close to beginning the walk they have come, but never able to see real
power and victory flowing, because their hearts are always locked away and
kept safe from any influence.
I rarely respond to your rigmarole......

Who went away justified...?

The dude who beat on his chest seeking mercy for being a sinner

Or the dude like you that boasted of his righteousness while thanking God he was not like the sinner....
 

NoNameMcgee

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
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I rarely respond to your rigmarole......

Who went away justified...?

The dude who beat on his chest seeking mercy for being a sinner

Or the dude like you that boasted of his righteousness while thanking God he was not like the sinner....
clear as day....
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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So you do not think that 'charity' is greater than 'faith'?
This here is more proof that you have a hard time reading or understanding plain English.....or like most workers for....you have to twist what we say so as to escape the truth of what we say.....my post was biblical..here read it again...

Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
Nawww...I will stick with Jesus by faith saves eternally based upon grace which leads to hope and love is a process of growth and maturity!
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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Acts 2:40 - And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Whoa Peter! You can't say stuff like that! You are advocating works salvation! Peter don't you know we there is nothing we can do to save ourselves!

Phillipians 2:12 - Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Oh no Paul! They got to you too! No No No! You can't work at being saved Paul! Don't become a legalist man!

1 Timothy 6:12 - Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses

Paul stop! Please! Stop telling people they have to actually DO something to be saved! Don't you know that Christ finished the work and that means there is nothing left for you to DO!?!?!

My goodness! These Apostles, I tell you! Who do they think they are telling folks they actually have to do something to be saved?!?!?

;)
Paul also said women will be saved in child bearing......I mean if context means nothing to you, or alludes you, why not yank that verse out as well to hang your working for dogma on!
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Here is an example of the pettiness God is talking about.
I am so sorry. I have nothing against either of you....but I learned not to disobey.

dcon perhaps has a harder time with loving others and God is growing the fruit in Him
where as benhur has been around a bit longer and His upbringing was much different.
God knows you both and grows fruit in you as necessary according to your purpose. it is petty to stick your nose in Gods business as He works on us individually. you are brothers in Christ Jesus. Lift one another, support one another, bear one anothers burdens. That pleases God.

Again....Im not bustin nobodys chops...just obeying....and I love you both.
Thanks for your words, we are all brothers in the gospel and we are fighting the real enemy, satan. Sometimes we disagree about the details, but we should all be willing to give our position without malice. It is a good fight, and we all need each other. Butt in anytime.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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This here is more proof that you have a hard time reading or understanding plain English.....or like most workers for....you have to twist what we say so as to escape the truth of what we say.....my post was biblical..here read it again...

Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
Nawww...I will stick with Jesus by faith saves eternally based upon grace which leads to hope and love is a process of growth and maturity!
I read what you wrote, now answer my question. To you, is 'charity greater than 'faith'?

I am going to tell you why the word 'charity' was changed to 'love' in most of the modern translations of the bible. It is because the word 'charity' has a 'good works' taint. And to get rid of anything that looked like 'good works' was important, the faith/grace only translators decided to change the nasty word 'charity', to 'love'. (didn't John say something about adding or changing the words of the bible?)

IOW how can we stand that 'charity' is greater than 'faith'?? Paul must have been drunk that day. Lets change the word to 'love'. That is much more dificult to associate with 'good works'.

Now, don't get me wrong. I believe heavily in faith/grace, but not 'only'. The scriptures tell us that God and Jesus expects more from us.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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I see the difference. But is this saying a false doctrine: Believe in God's son, plus love God and keep his commandments?

If a person believes God's Son, by this persons faith he will love God and keep his commandments. Am I right?

If a person says he believes God's Son, but does not keep his commandments, then we know this person has little or no faith and therefore does not love God, nor does he keep God's commandments. Therefore we know he was never saved in the first place.

So is this a false doctrine: doing good works = saved, (hint: we know you were saved and you have faith in Jesus Christ)
little or no good works = not saved (hint: we know you were not really saved in the beginning).
The Bible states faith without works is dead. Therefore works proves faith is real.
No works means no faith.
Works means real faith.
Real faith as evidenced by works is what saves.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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This here is more proof that you have a hard time reading or understanding plain English.....or like most workers for....you have to twist what we say so as to escape the truth of what we say.....my post was biblical..here read it again...

Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
Nawww...I will stick with Jesus by faith saves eternally based upon grace which leads to hope and love is a process of growth and maturity!
The problem he has is the archaic language of the KJV translation of 1611. Language changes charity has a different meaning today than in 1611. In 1611 it meant love.

1 Corinthians 13 AMPC
13 And so faith, hope, love abide [faith—conviction and belief respecting man’s relation to God and divine things; hope—joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation; love—true affection for God and man, growing out of God’s love for and in us], these three; but the greatest of these is love.

1 Corinthians 13 KJV
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

To avoid this confusion use biblegateway.com and check out different translations quickly.
 
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Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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I rarely respond to your rigmarole......

Who went away justified...?

The dude who beat on his chest seeking mercy for being a sinner

Or the dude like you that boasted of his righteousness while thanking God he was not like the sinner....
Seems to me there is a lot of "I am glad I am not like . . . " going on here . . . Just saying . . .
 

joefizz

Senior Member
Apr 23, 2017
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The Bible states faith without works is dead. Therefore works proves faith is real.
No works means no faith.
Works means real faith.
Real faith as evidenced by works is what saves.
So then how does one work before faith if one needs to establish faith by works?
 

joefizz

Senior Member
Apr 23, 2017
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Seems to me there is a lot of "I am glad I am not like . . . " going on here . . . Just saying . . .
True but "Rejoicing in the Lord" is quite different from "Rejoicing simply from what one does for the Lord".
 

joefizz

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Apr 23, 2017
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I read what you wrote, now answer my question. To you, is 'charity greater than 'faith'?

I am going to tell you why the word 'charity' was changed to 'love' in most of the modern translations of the bible. It is because the word 'charity' has a 'good works' taint. And to get rid of anything that looked like 'good works' was important, the faith/grace only translators decided to change the nasty word 'charity', to 'love'. (didn't John say something about adding or changing the words of the bible?)

IOW how can we stand that 'charity' is greater than 'faith'?? Paul must have been drunk that day. Lets change the word to 'love'. That is much more dificult to associate with 'good works'.

Now, don't get me wrong. I believe heavily in faith/grace, but not 'only'. The scriptures tell us that God and Jesus expects more from us.
Well of course God and Jesus "expect more from us" they expect us to "not be deceived" when anti christs appear,to "love our neighbors as ourselves"(even enemies) be "vigilant of Jesus's return",and "Tell of Jesus's works" and that through Jesus is the "only" salvation.(aside from the 144,000 in the time of tribulation that will have to reject the mark of the beast and be redeemed by Jesus from the earth)
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Thank you for the reminder, that was very nice. But can you tell me why my KJV version calls this phenomena 'charity'?

Easy:


The Translators To The Reader

Zeale to promote the common good, whether it be by devising any thing our selves, or revising that which hath bene laboured by others, . . .
. . .
But how shall men meditate in that, which they cannot understand? How shall they understand that which is kept close in an unknowen tongue? . . .so lest the Church be driven to the like exigent, it is necessary to have translations in a readinesse. . .

. . .
Yet it seemed good to the holy Ghost and to them, to take that which they found, (the same being for the greatest part true and sufficient) rather then by making a new, in that new world and greene age of the Church, to expose themselves to many exceptions and cavillations, as though they made a Translation to serve their owne turne, and therefore bearing witnesse to themselves, their witnesse not to be regarded. This may be supposed to bee some cause, why the Translation of theSeventie was allowed to passe for currant. . . . he holdeth the Authours thereof not onely for Interpreters, but also for Prophets in some respect: and Justinian the Emperour enjoyning the Jewes his subjects to use specially the Translation of the Seventie, rendreth this reason thereof, because they were as it were enlighted with propheticall grace. . . .
. . .(and Saint Jerome affirmeth as much) that the Seventie were Interpreters, they were not Prophets; they did many things well, as learned men; but yet as men they stumbled and fell, one while through oversight, another while through ignorance, yea, sometimes they may be noted to adde to the Originall, and sometimes to take from it; which made the Apostles to leave them many times, when they left the Hebrew, and to deliver the sence thereof according to the trueth of the word, as the spirit gave them utterance. This may suffice touching the Greeke Translations of the old Testament. . . .
. . .
There were also within a few hundreth yeeres after CHRIST, translations many into the Latine tongue: for this tongue also was very fit to convey the Law and the Gospel by, because in those times very many Countreys of the West, yea of the South, East and North, spake or understood Latine, being made Provinces to the Romanes. But now the Latine Translations were too many to be all good, . . .Now the Church of Rome . . . Yea, so unwilling they are to communicate the Scriptures to the peoples understanding in any sort, that they are not ashamed to confesse, that wee forced them to translate it into English against their wills. . . .
. . .
And to the same effect say wee, that we are so farre off from condemning any of their labours that traveiled before us in this kinde, either in this land or beyond sea, either in King Henries time, or King Edwards (if there were any translation, or correction of a translation in his time) or Queene Elizabeths of ever-renoumed memorie, that we acknowledge them to have beene raised up of God, for the building and furnishing of his Church, and that they deserve to be had of us and of posteritie in everlasting remembrance. . . .
. . .

Yet for all that, as nothing is begun and perfited at the same time, and the later thoughts are thought to be the wiser: so, if
we building upon their foundation that went before us, and being holpen by their labours, doe endevour to make that better which they left so good; no man, we are sure, hath cause to mislike us; they, we persuade our selves, if they were alive, would thanke us. . . .
. . .

to have the translations of the Bible maturely considered of and examined. For by this meanes it commeth to passe, that whatsoever is sound alreadie (and all is sound for substance, in one or other of our editions, and the worst of ours farre better then their autentike vulgar) the same will shine as gold more brightly, being rubbed and polished; also if any thing be halting, or superfluous, or not so agreeable to the originall, the same may bee corrected, and the trueth set in place. . . .
. . .
Now to the later we answere; that wee doe not deny, nay wee affirme and avow, that the very meanest{ poorest } translation of the Bible in English, set foorth by men of our profession (for wee have seene none of theirs of the whole Bible as yet) containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God. . . .
. . .
Yet before we end, we must answere a third cavill and objection of theirs against us, for altering and amending our Taanslations [sic] so oft; wherein truely they deale hardly, and strangely with us.
{ The very same thing you do to MODERN Translations. } For to whom ever was it imputed for a fault (by such as were wise) to goe over that which hee had done, and to amend it where he saw cause? . . .
. . .
But the difference that appeareth betweene our Translations, and our often correcting of them, is the thing that wee are specially charged with; let us see therefore whether they themselves bee without fault this way, (if it be to be counted a fault, to correct) and whether they bee fit men to throw stones at us: But it is high time to leave them, and to shew in briefe what wee proposed to our selves, and what course we held in this our perusall and survay of the Bible. Truly (good Christian Reader) wee never thought from the beginning, that we should neede to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one, (for then the imputation of
Sixtus had bene true in some sort, that our people had bene fed with gall of Dragons in stead of wine, with whey in stead of milke, but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principall good one, not justly to be excepted against; that hath bene our indeavour, that our marke. . . .
{ That makes it a PARAPHRASE and not an actual Translation from the original languages. }

http://www.kjvbibles.com/kjpreface.htm

They paraphrased from OLDER ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS, trying their best to correct the known Errors. SO THEY OBVIOUSLY MISSED SOME.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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So then how does one work before faith if one needs to establish faith by works?
It is simple. Faith comes first and works comes as a result. That is why faith without works is dead.

In logic faith implies works.
No faith no works.
The definition of an implication is it is not the case where the antecedent (first argument) is true and the consequent(second argument) is false. All other conditions makes the statement be true.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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It is simple. Faith comes first and works comes as a result. That is why faith without works is dead.

In logic faith implies works.
No faith no works.
The definition of an implication is it is not the case where the antecedent (first argument) is true and the consequent(second argument) is false. All other conditions makes the statement be true.

No, you still don't get it.

Faith, without GOD'S LOVE in you, is DEAD FAITH. IT SAYS SO:

1 John 3:14-19 (HCSB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] If anyone has this world’s goods and sees his brother in need but closes his eyes to his ⌊need⌋—how can God’s love reside in him?
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Little children, we must not love with word or speech, but with truth and action.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] This is how we will know we belong to the truth and will convince our conscience in His presence,
 

joefizz

Senior Member
Apr 23, 2017
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It is simple. Faith comes first and works comes as a result. That is why faith without works is dead.

In logic faith implies works.
No faith no works.
The definition of an implication is it is not the case where the antecedent (first argument) is true and the consequent(second argument) is false. All other conditions makes the statement be true.
then how do we "walk by faith not by sight" if we need "works" daily to keep us from losing faith?
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
30,095
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I read what you wrote, now answer my question. To you, is 'charity greater than 'faith'?

I am going to tell you why the word 'charity' was changed to 'love' in most of the modern translations of the bible. It is because the word 'charity' has a 'good works' taint. And to get rid of anything that looked like 'good works' was important, the faith/grace only translators decided to change the nasty word 'charity', to 'love'. (didn't John say something about adding or changing the words of the bible?)

IOW how can we stand that 'charity' is greater than 'faith'?? Paul must have been drunk that day. Lets change the word to 'love'. That is much more dificult to associate with 'good works'.

Now, don't get me wrong. I believe heavily in faith/grace, but not 'only'. The scriptures tell us that God and Jesus expects more from us.
Does not matter and is equal to apples and oranges concerning this particular thread one is root of eternal salvation the other is the result of growth and maturity AFTER SALVATION....maybe you need to get your order straight!
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
30,095
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Seems to me there is a lot of "I am glad I am not like . . . " going on here . . . Just saying . . .
There is a big difference in what the one I addressed states and what we say.........we condemn dogma and in no way, shape or form push how righteous and sinless we are....the big difference...we constantly point to Christ and his work, power and promises while workers for and sinless perfectionists constantly point to self and what they do!