Not By Works

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Amen......the workers for, sinless perfectionists and salvation embellishers love Burger King Theology......
i prefer Hardee's to be honest.

you may pay more, and you may wait longer, but what you receive is delicious & filling:)
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Adultery is adultery even if you also only lust in your heart, and/or act on it. I mean, would you ever think of kissing another man, even if only in your mind?

Same with anger. I could be angry with you, but not act on it and like, go to your house and set it on fire..
Hahahhahaahhahahajahajajaha
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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For starters notice the grey Brahma Bull in the back ground with a saddle on. Well just by judging this hostile scene it appears the gentleman in the gray suit possibly made fun of the other guys mode of transportation, a Brahma Bull, and ka-pow, the guys beautiful quarter horse goes down in the dirt. Was he an angry person or did the other jerk make him angry, ya see.
wouldn't your narrative make more sense if it was the horse who was ribbing the bull and/or its rider?
((cuz it's the horse that 'guy-in-vest' is setting at))
 
Dec 22, 2017
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Amen......the workers for, sinless perfectionists and salvation embellishers love Burger King Theology......
Originally Posted by ElAmor

I'm just wondering how hard it is for you to either say YES or NO to confirm or negate something. So i'll just take this as a NO which means that YOU DISAGREE that a DEAD FAITH cannot save and that Faith without works is DEAD.which brings me to the conclusion that you’re really just trying to divide instead of edifying the church. (jude 1:18-19, james 2:22, romans 14:19)

Hebrews 4:12-13 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Rejecting Scriptures that do not fit and go against your FALSE MANMADE DOCTRINE is rejection and trampling under foot of God’s WORD which is the SPIRIT ( john 1:1-3 & 14, 6:63, hebrews 10:26-29, 2 timothy 3:16-17, mark 7:6-13)

Matthew 12:31-37 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the son of man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. YOU BROOD OF VIPERS, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and BY YOUR WORDS YOU WILL BE CONDEMNED”


Apostle James words;

... As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

... should be received as God’s own words since they were inspired and led by the Holy Spirit and therefore wrote what they have heard and understood from Christs teachings.

Our Lord Jesus said;

“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?(luke 6:46)

...Who are the ones calling Jesus as their Lord and yet do not do what He says? Are they not those who CLAIM to have Faith but one which is DEAD.

1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

...So what did Jesus say to them?

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

...And what would he say to them who have FAITH WITHOUT WORKS which is a DEAD FAITH that cannot save?

Revelation 3:1-3 To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but YOU ARE DEAD. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETE IN THE SIGHT OF MY GOD. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; OBEY IT AND REPENT. But IF YOU DO NOT WAKE UP, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

...BECAUSE...

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you EVILDOERS.’

...And why are they called EVILDOERS?

1 John 2:3-4 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:4-10 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

dcon’s reply

Assume what you want to assume....I could care less what you think or your view.....

ElAmor

I hope that everyone can notice that when the attitude or behaviour becomes like this in a Christian forum, there will be no edification but there will always be strife, disorder and arguments leading to divisions instead of unity in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Timothy 6:3-5 If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

Jude 1:19-25 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh. Doxology To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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amen, faith without works is dead

and there are even more amens than this:

God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
(1 Corinthians 1:9)

But the Lord is faithful, and He will strengthen you and guard you from the evil one.
(2 Thessalonians 3:3)

The One who calls you is faithful, and He will do it.
(1 Thessalonians 5:24)

Let us hold resolutely to the hope we confess, for He who promised is faithful.
(Hebrews 10:23)

I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
(Philippians 1:6)

if we are faithless, He remains faithful —
for He cannot deny Himself.
(2 Timothy 2:13)

Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
(Hebrews 10:35)

In Him and through faith in Him we may enter God's presence with boldness and confidence.
(Ephesians 3:12)


amen!

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.(Philippians 2:13)

amen, amen, amen and AMEN !!
 
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Jan 25, 2018
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So now we have come full circle. Since we do not believe 100% in what you believe, then we other Christians actually deny Christ. You are a true saint, and you have just condemned 65% of all other Christians (who have faith in Jesus Christ and trust in his mercy) to hell. Good going, and may the Lord be with you too.
No......what I condemn are the false, embellished, street organ player false gospels......and the number would be more like 90%...get your facts straight!
"you have just condemned 65% of all other Christians"
dcontroversal has changed this to
"you have just condemned 90% of all other Christians"
And dcontroversal is happy with condemning 90% of believing christians.
 
Jan 25, 2018
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A member wrote that people are saying if one sins you are not a believer.
Scripture says if you do not have faith in Jesus nothing will save you.

It has always been about faith and because of ones knowledge of Jesus
walking in His ways.

It is simple. If you claim faith in Jesus, that He is the most important thing
in ones life, yet you ignore His will, His desires, His commands, then it is
you and not Him that is more important, and the faith is just a way of
stopping from worrying about death and the future.

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;
and whoever lives and believes in me will never die."
John 11:25-26

God sees your heart and whether you are listening learning and walking in His ways.
It is not an exam with a pass a fail. We are lost sinners who need to be redeemed,
and part of that redemption is listening and following Jesus.

A sick person does not get well by just having a doctor to help them, but by
actually taking the medicine, because it is the medicine that cures them, the
doctor identifies the problem and the solution.

Thankfully in Christ we have both the doctor and the solution and the medicine.
But ignoring the medicine, means we are doomed. Literally.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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wouldn't your narrative make more sense if it was the horse who was ribbing the bull and/or its rider?
((cuz it's the horse that 'guy-in-vest' is setting at))
Yes okay I agree with your scenario. The scene is taken from the movie Blazing Saddles and the horse was not injured.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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Yes okay I agree with your scenario. The scene is taken from the movie Blazing Saddles and the horse was not injured.
Huh...Hollywood can make an entire movie without harming an animal but we can't make one thread without injuring each other...something to think about...
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
1 John 5:4 - For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.
1 John 5:5 - Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
________
Revelation 3:21 - To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
____________

philippians

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

______

1 peter 1


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



praise God

:eek:

(check out my signature...)
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Funny thing about anger, is you are the one who keeps raising the issue.
Your definition of a teaching "anger without cause in your heart is murder" you want me to
accept.
1. Anger - how do you define this, annoyance, loathing, resentment, irritation
2. Target - an individual or a thing or an attitude
3. Murder - immediately you think it, over an extended time, more than 24 hours etc
4. Cause - what is a legitimate cause and what is not

Murder is simple. Someone is dead and the situation was unjustified. When the person dies
murder begins.

Anger is more of a problem and what you would regard as justified.
I know of people who are angry at their teachers for setting homework
I know people who are angry at their bosses for asking them to do work well.

I am not settled at the moment where I am on all these particular issues, other than
anger in some form and in some circumstances is murder.

Am I now guilty of something bad, or heretical or evil?
Funnily some here are happy to say whatever I share I am wrong, :)

Wonder if they know what loving your enemy means and loving your brothers and sisters
in Christ is. It is certainly is not this behavior and me pointing it out will also be wood
to the fire, lol. It is a sad spiritual reality when people are this far from the Lord.

And some have been angry at me for just being obedient to Jesus. So mind boggling.
What you ignore is Jesus became angry and drove the money changers from the temple. The issue isn't anger but what you say and do when angry.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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I can generally tell what people believe by how they treat one another as well.

Those who often call other people unsaved more than likely don't understand grace for themselves.

Even in Scripture the writers continually said, "Hey believer this is wrong, but we believe THIS about you..." Good things not evil things. They saw the good in people, they saw God in people.

The writers of Scripture do continually advise people to ensure they themselves are saved though. Examine yourselves to see if Christ is in you... the key is understanding that we are God's temple. And because God lives in us His fruit WILL be seen in our lives. This isn't to be saved. This is because we are saved. It is in our struggle that we find we need the Comforter to remind us.

Paul even went so far as to say we know no one by the flesh. If anyone is IN Christ they are a new creation.

Are we seeing God in other believers? If not, the problem isn't other people.

Another way I can tell what a person believes is how many times they refer to love. The chief Scriptures we interpret the Bible through is more than likely who we believe God to be. But Scripture overwhelmingly teaches that it is by love that we know God.

What is our heart saying about our beliefs?

James 1:26 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not bridle his tongue, he deceives his heart and his religion is worthless.

If someone doesn't know how to love, I usually don't believe they have much to teach me about God. Because they scarcely know Him.
Keep in mind there was divisions in the early church. The elders gathered together to look at the issue. They created the Apostles Creed to define who is and isn't a Christian. Starting back then it was decided that we can agree to disagree about any issue outside of the Creed. Today we have as a result many different denominations that have distinctives separating them from the other denominations.
As long as they adhere to Creed they are brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. As long as a person or denomination adheres to the Creed that is all that is required.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Huh...Hollywood can make an entire movie without harming an animal but we can't make one thread without injuring each other...something to think about...
I agree we should be contending for the Faith but not attacking the person. However, I think your statement "Injuring each other" is an over reaction. A heated debate over a hot topic such as,
"Not By Works" is within the bylaws and rules of Christianchat.com. You also have the
option of reporting an abusive person at the bottom of the post....:)
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Yes I thought it was.

What confuses me is why you think these verses to you mean that you have committed murder in your heart when you get angry.

What is interesting is if you look at the following headings for the verses from the NKJV, NIV and NLT

Murder Begins in the Heart - NKJV

Murder - NIV

Teaching about Anvger - NLT

I do not think Jesus is saying here that being angry is the same as committing murder.

From Mathew 5:17 Jesus is teaching about the law and how the Pharisees distorted the true intent and added to it.

Matthew 5:21


21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’

The expression refers to the traditional interpretation of the teachers of religious law and Pharisees. Though their traditions prohibited murder, they did not prohibit hatred. The surpassing righteousness of Jesus demands reconciliation (5:23-24); merely refraining from committing murder is not sufficient (NKJV study notes)

Matthew 5:22
22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.


5:22 The scribes and Pharisees said that a person who referred to another as Raca, meaning “empty head,” was in danger of being sued for libel before the council (or the Sanhedrin). On the other hand, Jesus said that whoever calls another a fool will have to answer to God. That is not to say that calling someone a fool will condemn a believer to eternal punishment in hell. Rather Jesus was saying that to utter such words is to place oneself in a worse condition at the time of judgment (see 1 Cor. 3:12–15). NKJV study notes.

So as I said, I think Jesus is not saying being angry in your heart is committing murder.
He is correcting what the Pharisees were saying and teaching the true intent of the law.

Furthermore the reason I think this is because

Matthew 5:43-44
Love Your Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

The Pharisees taught "Love your neighbour and hate your enemy"
Jesus said "Love your enemy as well"

Exodus 23:4


4 “If you meet your enemy's ox or his donkey going astray, you shall surely bring it back to him again.

Leviticus 19:18
18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

19:18 love your neighbor as yourself. See v. 34; quoted by Christ (Mt 22:39; Mk 12:31; Lk 10:27), Paul (Ro 13:9; Gal 5:14) and James (2:8). The stricter Pharisees (school of Shammai) added to this command what they thought it implied: “Hate your enemy” (Mt 5:43; see note there). Jesus’ reaction, “Love your enemies,” was in line with true OT teaching (see vv. 17, 34) and was more in agreement with the middle-of-the-road Pharisees. Rabbi Nahmanides (thirteenth century) caught their sentiments: “One should place no limitations upon the love for the neighbor, but instead a person should love to do an abundance of good for his fellow being as he does for himself.” “Neighbor” does not merely mean one who lives nearby, but anyone with whom one comes in contact (see Lk 10:25–36 and notes). NIV Study notes.

Sorry for the long post.

Jesus a little more to go.

Matthew 5:27-28
Adultery in the Heart
27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Notice lust in the heart is equal to adultery.
You've thought is therefore have done it.

He did not say that about anger.

Finally Paul says

Ephesians 4:26-27
26 And “don’t sin by letting anger control you.” Don’t let the sun go down while you are still angry,27 for anger gives a foothold to the devil.

He does not say "Anger is akin to murder"

He says it gives satan a foothold.[already




I believe the main thrust of that teaching was that the law was spiritual, not by the mere letter as they had been taught.

That it isn't what a man does on his outside that has defiled him, but that he defiles himself within first by what comes out of his heart. That the act of murder has happened already inside and the act of adultery has happened already inside. This is regardless of whether or not you keep the outside clean looking by not committing the outward act.

This is my understanding of the teaching. It would seem odd to me for Him to say having thoughts and fantasies about someone other than your spouse is to have already committed adultery but that to have thoughts and fantasies about revengeful anger and bitter turmoil is not to commit murder already.

He took the whole teaching straight to a mans heart and what his heart is doing and thinking.

And we know it is what comes out of a mans heart that defiles him.
The fact is Jesus said the LAW is eternal. The 613 rules in the law as written in the Torah are in effect until heaven and earth pass away. Also keep in mind that sin is transgression of the law. No one can keep the law. All sin thus breaking the law. The penalty is death. I give thanks to God for Jesus being the unblemished Lamb of God that was sacrificed for us. This makes the only unforgivable sin rejecting Jesus.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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If anger at my brother isn't sin, why must I put it away? Why must I put away anger, rage, malice as Colossians says? And why does Jesus say if I am even angry at you I'm in danger of judgement?
If you are quoting Matthew 5:22, you are misquoting it. Here is what it says:
[FONT=&quot]I say unto you, That whosoever is [/FONT]angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:

I have underlined the part you missed. It is important.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Funny how people think, the bible never say's this world is like a, "second chance." The truth is we have "one chance" and this world is our testing ground to prepare Christians for serving and worshiping God for an eternity.
Can you give us a scripture that says, "The truth is, we have "one chance" and this world is our testing ground to prepare Chrsitians for serving and worshiping God for an eternity". Thank you.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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If you are quoting Matthew 5:22, you are misquoting it. Here is what it says:
I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:

I have underlined the part you missed. It is important.
You must have missed all of yesterdays chat in here...:D
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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No......what I condemn are the false, embellished, street organ player false gospels......and the number would be more like 90%...get your facts straight!
You mockingly condemn all that do not believe in your strict and narrow reading of the scriptures.

If I put you and your strict and narrow belief system up against all other Christians, world wide, you may not be able to agree with even 65% of them. Even on this forum, at least 30% do not agree with you, and now take the Catholics and the eastern Christians and we could be talking just 65% of just the protestant religions.

BTW, the false, embellished, street organ player false gospels you are talking about, come from the bible also. The part of the bible that you do not read because it does not fit your strict and narrow reading of the scriptures.

For instance you have never told me what happened to the debtor that was given grace and a great free gift from the merciful king?
Did he lose his free gift for not forgiving?
OR
Did the king forgive him and he kept his free gift even though he did not forgive.

What is the answer to this parable that Jesus gave us?