Not By Works

[NoNameMcgee]

Hogwash- He spoke of those who had a claimed faith only (hearers of the word but not doers) vs those who had true living faith (not only hearers of the word but doers) .

most
people will conflate this into "sinless perfection" which
makes salvation a revolving door theology

where salvation is entirely based on what you do
and Christ is an afterthought

just some addition to qualify those who will establish their own righteousness in His name




and others think its more of a balance scale
"well if i do enough.. ill be ok"

such a shame

 

[dcontroversal]

Whatever,

I just take james ot say what he says.

WHat does it PROFIT a person if they CLAIM to have faith, but have no work? CAN THIS FAITH SAVE THEM?

You want to think people who say they have faith but has ZERO ZIP NADA works were saved then lost it. How could they be saved if they NEVER HAD WORKS?

You just want to keep your legalistic mumbo jumbo alive by attacking others, Good luck with that.

Jesus himself could post in this thread and the workers for will still come before his throne claiming their right to enter based upon their works........and the result will still be the SAME......they will be cast.....

and for the record....JESUS has spoken.......HE that BELIEVES on the SON is not Condemned, HE that believes on the SON is having EVERLASTING LIFE, It PLEASED GOD by the foolishness of preaching to SAVE them that BELIEVE, NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy has he saved us, In the grace you are,having been saved out of faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of GOD and not of WORKS lest any man should boast, etc........

JESUS inspired PAUL by the way!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

James is saying that if you think you have faith, but are not willing to cloth the naked and feed the hungry, you do not have faith, or your faith is dead. Either way, you are not saved.

No, He is saying if you claim to have faith, But do not show any works. Your faith is DEAD. and it never saved you to begin with. so examine you faith and make sure it is REAL LIVING FAITH before it is too late.

I can claim I have faith all day, If I do not have living faith, I am either deceived into thinking I have faith, or I am trying to decieve others into thinking I have faith, either way, I have no faith. period.

People who have living faith WORK. there is not a question of a claimed faith for them, because no one would question it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The scriptures give us nothing about the history of the thief. So it is hard to speculate further. We do know that Jesus promised to take him to paradise. Do we know what paradise is?

actually yes it does. He was put on a cross a dead sinner, He (physically) died on the cross a living redeemed person. and was immediately in paradise.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen decon, seems like a lot of posters here are fixated on James ch.2 and then they go on to say you better have works or you will lose your eternal salvation. All of these posters who use OSAS as a way to bring down the "eternal security" of the believer are barking up the wrong tree. "OSAS is not a "Christian Doctrine", if you please, OSAS is not a Christian Doctrine, however, the
"Eternal Security" of the believer is a "Christian Doctrine"

When you see "OSAS" pop up onto a post I can guaranty the poster will later tell you how you can lose your salvation and their "go to book" is James Ch.2; news flash, a Christian cannot lose their "Eternal Salvation" It is obvious to me and a few others that they came here to this thread from a different forum with an "agenda" They have been taught and coached how to us a few verses and phrases like OSAS that they hope will win over a few converts, Oh but they thought wrong.

I have never met a more helpful and giving group of people than Christian's and to throw guilt trips around to a beautiful saved group of Christian's by using James Ch.2 is just a the wrong thing to do. Its almost like we are not even playing on the same team and our opponent is trying to bring real loving and caring Christian's down. And where in the world did these people come from with their Christian world view, it is just awful if you ask me. "lose your eternal salvation" never happen.

"And they shall never perish" V.28
The Good Shepherd and His Sheep: John10:26-28

26) but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
27) My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28) "I give them eternal life, 'and they shall never perish'; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

They are fighting calvanism not christianity proper, from what I have seen.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I would not go as far as to say that works has "zero" to do with salvation ... If that is true then how do you explain the verses below ? ...

James 2:26 [SUP]26[/SUP]As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
James 2:17-18 [SUP]17[/SUP]In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. [SUP]18[/SUP]But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

Truly I believe many are arguing here for no reason ... According to the Bibles many verses both works and faith have an impact upon one's salvation ...

I do not think James contradicted paul when paul said over and over we are not saved by works of any type.

I think unlike Paul, who was speaking to a group of people who kept insisting works are required to be be saved or maintain salvation. James was speaking to a group of people who were licentious in their belief, They believed they could belief in Jesus and maybe say a prayer and "poof" they were saved, now they can live however they desire.

Paul said those who are saved WILL do works (eph 2:10 and many other passages) Hebrews shows the faith hall of fame, they all did works. James is basically saying, if you CLAIM to have faith, but do not have the WORKS paul said ALL who have faith WILL DO. can your faiht save you?

No. why? Your faith is dead. can a dead faith produce works? No. Can a dead faith save you? No.
is James saying works will forfiet salvation? No. Because a person who does 1 work would not fit James defenition of a person who says they have faith but has NO work.

No = 0

anything above zero would not equal no.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why don't men want to learn? I don't get it...

Pride................................

Why did Adam blame Eve? Same issue

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Romans 4:1-2
King James Version(KJV)

1.)What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2.) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

 

[dcontroversal]

A NEW version of Amazing Grace for the workers for....

AMAZING WORKS that I trust and see
I hope will save a wretch like me
I once was lost and now I plea
My works are sufficient to save me

or maybe just as I am....

Just as I am I Come to Thee
I offer my works and make my plea
Though the blood of Christ was shed for me
It is not enough my works I plea

NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HAS HE SAVED US....

 

[VCO]

Pride................................

Why did Adam blame Eve? Same issue

He also blamed GOD.


Genesis 3:12 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Then the man replied, “The woman You gave to be with me—she gave me ⌊some fruit⌋ from the tree, and I ate.”

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He also blamed GOD.


Genesis 3:12 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Then the man replied, “The woman You gave to be with me—she gave me ⌊some fruit⌋ from the tree, and I ate.”

Amazing proof he died the moment he ate, How else can we explain a man who walked with God for an unknown time, Knew him better than any of us could even think of. (apart from sin) and then think God was so weak he could not know the truth. and think he could lie to God.

 

[joefizz]

Don't make me go all ninja on you... I have crazy ninja skillz.. View attachment 179958 View attachment 179959

Crazy I can vouch for but "ninja" leave those skills to your cats!

 

[VCO]

I provided scripture that shows it’s highly unlikely that the thief was a previous convert. In regards to paradise, what about Abraham’s bosom?

It was a COMMON expression in the Mideast. It involves walking arm and arm with signifying you are best of Friends:

NOTICE: The women too. That is called walking in each others bosom.

It maybe where the expression, "they are bosom buddies", came from.

 

[Endoscopy]

The evidence is clear and I am not going to argue with one who refuses to accept the historical and or biblical evidence....I will cite three examples and then believe as you wish as most do.

1st TYPE or PICTURE--Crossing the RED SEA-->They were all IMMERSED UNTO MOSES in the SEA-->The waters STACKED and they went UNDER the level of the water-->1st Corinthians 10:2 And all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

HOW could they ALL be IMMERSED in the SEA (over 600,000 men of war over 20 not counting women, children and those too old to fight)

BAPTISED-->baptizó: to dip, sink
Original Word: βαπτίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: baptizó
Phonetic Spelling: (bap-tid'-zo)
Short Definition: I dip, submerge, baptize
Definition: lit: I dip, submerge, but specifically of ceremonial dipping; I baptize

2nd TYPE or PICTURE--The CROSSING at the Jordan...the WATER PILED UP and they went UNDER IT at the TIME OF THE FLOOD-->JOSHUA 3-->And it shall come to pass, as soon as the soles of the feet of the priests that bear the ark of the LORD, the Lord of all the earth, shall rest in the waters of Jordan, that the waters of Jordan shall be cut off from the waters that come down from above; and they shall stand upon an heap. And it came to pass, when the people removed from their tents, to pass over Jordan, and the priests bearing the ark of the covenant before the people; And as they that bare the ark were come unto Jordan, and the feet of the priests that bare the ark were dipped in the brim of the water, (for Jordan overfloweth all his banks all the time of harvest,) That the waters which came down from above stood and rose up upon an heap very far from the city Adam, that is beside Zaretan: and those that came down toward the sea of the plain, even the salt sea, failed, and were cut off: and the people passed over right against Jericho.

3rd Example--The immersion of JESUS "In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. And when he came up out of water, immediately he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove, and a voice came from heaven; "Thou art my beloved Son, with thee I am well pleased."Can you come UP OUT of the WATER unless you have been UNDER IT? NO

BAPTISED-->baptizó: to dip, sinkOriginal Word: βαπτίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: baptizó
Phonetic Spelling: (bap-tid'-zo)
Short Definition: I dip, submerge, baptize
Definition: lit: I dip, submerge, but specifically of ceremonial dipping; I baptize.

Believe what you want.....i am done arguing with one who will not receive the truth!

Why do you reject what the early elders did. Creating the Apostles Creed as the ONLY STANDARD for a person to be considered a Christian. Diverse opinions were to be tolerated by all.

As to my beliefs I adhere to the Reformed/Calvinist theology. However I am not so dogmatic that I will rant against any Christian that doesn't adhere to that version of theology. You on the other hand are too condemning of Christians that don't adhere to your view of what the Bible states. The Apostles Creed was created to define what a Christian is at a time in the early church when there was many arguments over theological differences. The elders then said outside the Apostles Creed that any issue was to be considered to be agree to disagree.

For some reason you keep being upset with people having a difference of opinion about some theological issues where they differ from yours. It is fine to POLITELY disagree with others on those issues but you are not very polite about your disagreements.

 

[benhur]

I provided scripture that shows it’s highly unlikely that the thief was a previous convert. In regards to paradise, what about Abraham’s bosom?

There is a parable that likens paradise to Abrahams bosom. What does the parable of the rich man and Lazerus tell us about paradise?

 

[VCO]

Why do you reject what the early elders did. Creating the Apostles Creed as the ONLY STANDARD for a person to be considered a Christian. Diverse opinions were to be tolerated by all.

As to my beliefs I adhere to the Reformed/Calvinist theology. However I am not so dogmatic that I will rant against any Christian that doesn't adhere to that version of theology. You on the other hand are too condemning of Christians that don't adhere to your view of what the Bible states. The Apostles Creed was created to define what a Christian is at a time in the early church when there was many arguments over theological differences. The elders then said outside the Apostles Creed that any issue was to be considered to be agree to disagree.

For some reason you keep being upset with people having a difference of opinion about some theological issues where they differ from yours. It is fine to POLITELY disagree with others on those issues but you are not very polite about your disagreements.

It is NOT as old as you think it is.

The Apostles' Creed (Latin: Symbolum Apostolorum or Symbolum Apostolicum), sometimes entitled Symbol of the Apostles, is an early statement of Christian belief—a creed or "symbol". It is widely used by a number of Christian denominations for both liturgical and catechetical purposes, most visibly by liturgical Churches of Western tradition, including the Catholic Church, Lutheranism and Anglicanism. It is also used by Presbyterians, Methodists and Congregationalists.
. . .
The earliest known mention of the expression "Apostles' Creed" occurs in a letter of AD 390 from a synod in Milan and may have been associated with the belief, widely accepted in the 4th century, that, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, each of the Twelve Apostles contributed an article of a creed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostles'_Creed

NONE OF THE APOSTLES actually originated the Creed, and most likely was originated in the Catholic Church, in the latter half of the 3rd century. Almost all of the other Churches, never use the so-called Apostles Creed. Evangelicals TEACH the WORD, instead of a memorized Creed.

 

[benhur]

ben....

do you truely not understand?

right now there are many naked and hungry

with a few clicks of your mouse

or on your touch screen

you can donate your entire savings to them

now that i have revealed this to you


are you going to turn from this?

Jesus says to take care of the naked and the hungry and to not turn them away and say be satisfied. When I see that kind of need with my eyes in my community and I have some money that I can give to help these people, then I will do it.

If I do not do it, then I will be the hypocrite that says they have great faith, but turns away the naked and the hungry and says unto them, be satisfied. God then will treat you and your need to be saved in the same way. IOW if you help God take care of the needy, he will take care of you.

Same logic when Jesus says if you do not forgive men their trespasses against you, God will not forgive your trespasses against him. IOW if you do this, I God will do this. OSAS is not true, unless you do what God says.

Gracers say that these examples are not about salvation, but just about your reward in heaven. They are wrong. Because you cannot enter into the KOG in the first place if you are still full of sin.

 

[benhur]

This is so far from the context of JAMES and who he is addressing....it has NOTHING to do with LOSING salvation.....geesh....man learn context...serious....!

Then tell me the context and who he was speaking to. Let's see if it makes a difference.

 

[benhur]

Wrong again.....I suggest you google, study and embrace the word context and then learn who he is talking to....there are NO verses in context that support the loss of salvation!

Again enlighten me on how my context is wrong. If you can't then stop bringing up context.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

same false dichotomy

then you get the same principal in hopes you see the truth
the same principal that is being said by Jesus there

is said by Jesus here

matthew 19

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

_________

Jesus asked was telling this man how to be perfect

this man believed his works regarding the commandments were perfect (including loving his neighbor as himself)

Jesus is saying ohhhhh is that so?

then give up all your things and follow me
(to expose where this mans heart really was)


22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

____________



again same principal

Luke 10
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
(again a man looking to be justified by works)
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
(this man believes he actually does this fully)
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
(Jesus says knowing this man is self righteous yaaa thats all you need then if you are correct)
29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
(as if he truely does this knowing Jesus does not believe him asks ohhh who is my neighbor maybe i am wrong mockingly)


30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

____________


that amount of money
as well as offering for excess was .... a lot of money at that time....

this exposes that man who believed he was doing these things is actually wrong......

he does not love his enemy as himself as he ought to in order to be perfect

let alone his literal neighbor....


ben

youre constantly taking

reproof

instruction for righteousness

the law

and works

and trying to say a man needs more than grace or faith to be saved