Not By Works

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Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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Morning all from lovely sunny England...

We can be 100% sure that the Holy Spirit will not enter a man and let him live like the world , if that was the case , then the flesh would be more powerful than the Holy Spirit , not going to happen :rolleyes:...The more I get to know God through His word , the more I fall in love with Him , the more Ii submit to Him , the more I become like His Son Jesus ...

It is a daily walk , step by step.

Isaiah 43:1 But now, this is what the LORD says-- he who created you, Jacob, he who formed you, Israel: "Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine...( We are His )

Ezekiel 36:26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh...( We have a new heart )

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9 not of works , lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them...:)...

I think some people do not understand Ephesians 2:10 , it would make so many things much more clearer if they could see this for what it is , and not add to it , it is a great relief to get these truths written on ones heart , if you can not do that , how can one move forward in the rest of the word , they will misinterpret it all wrong...xox...
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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Man I am glad I can rest assured in Christ by faith without any working for drivel or faux law keeping rigmarole false view to gain or keep that which is already eternally given freely by grace through faith in Christ........the plenteous in number religionists on the other hand....not so.....they, in their mind, actually believe they help Jesus save themselves...hahahhahahaha what a farce!
 
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dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
30,441
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Morning all from lovely sunny England...

We can be 100% sure that the Holy Spirit will not enter a man and let him live like the world , if that was the case , then the flesh would be more powerful than the Holy Spirit , not going to happen :rolleyes:...The more I get to know God through His word , the more I fall in love with Him , the more Ii submit to Him , the more I become like His Son Jesus ...

It is a daily walk , step by step.

Isaiah 43:1 But now, this is what the LORD says-- he who created you, Jacob, he who formed you, Israel: "Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine...( We are His )

Ezekiel 36:26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh...( We have a new heart )

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9 not of works , lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them...:)...

I think some people do not understand Ephesians 2:10 , it would make so many things much more clearer if they could see this for what it is , and not add to it , it is a great relief to get these truths written on ones heart , if you can not do that , how can one move forward in the rest of the word , they will misinterpret it all wrong...xox...
Good morning and evening from Australia Rose...640 p.m. Thursday here....flying back to the U.S. tomorrow....
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Morning all from lovely sunny England...

We can be 100% sure that the Holy Spirit will not enter a man and let him live like the world , if that was the case , then the flesh would be more powerful than the Holy Spirit , not going to happen :rolleyes:...The more I get to know God through His word , the more I fall in love with Him , the more Ii submit to Him , the more I become like His Son Jesus ...

It is a daily walk , step by step.

Isaiah 43:1 But now, this is what the LORD says-- he who created you, Jacob, he who formed you, Israel: "Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine...( We are His )

Ezekiel 36:26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh...( We have a new heart )

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9 not of works , lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them...:)...

I think some people do not understand Ephesians 2:10 , it would make so many things much more clearer if they could see this for what it is , and not add to it , it is a great relief to get these truths written on ones heart , if you can not do that , how can one move forward in the rest of the word , they will misinterpret it all wrong...xox...

Amen, like a parent chastens a child, God chastens his children. Out of love.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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Good morning and evening from Australia Rose...640 p.m. Thursday here....flying back to the U.S. tomorrow....
You are missed on here DCon...Look forward to you returning...Have a safe and relaxing trip home...My sister is flying back to Australia tomorrow, she was over for a few weeks...God bless you and keep you...In Jesus name Amen...xox...
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
30,441
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You are missed on here DCon...Look forward to you returning...Have a safe and relaxing trip home...My sister is flying back to Australia tomorrow, she was over for a few weeks...God bless you and keep you...In Jesus name Amen...xox...
Thanks Rose.....small world hey....hop a jet and be on the other side of the world in a day....tell your sister peace and have a safe trip.....love "Stralia" like my 17th time here in 4 years....haha :)
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
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1 Corinthians 5:6-13 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth. I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “expel the wicked man from among you.”

Romans 11:13-22 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
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1 Timothy 6:3-5 If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Man I am glad I can rest assured in Christ by faith without any working for drivel or faux law keeping rigmarole false view to gain or keep that which is already eternally given freely by grace through faith in Christ........the plenteous in number religionists on the other hand....not so.....they, in their mind, actually believe they help Jesus save themselves...hahahhahahaha what a farce!
That is because you ignore James 2. I posted it before and you rant it doesn't mean what it states. Here it is again in NIV and AMPC my 2 favorite translations. NIV is modern English and AMPC gives more detail by giving multiple meanings of the original language word when needed. AMPC makes for more cumbersome reading but gives better understanding. Verse 26 sums it up

James 2 NIV


Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.


James 2 AMPC


14 What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]?
15 If a brother or sister is poorly clad and lacks food for each day,
16 And one of you says to him, Good-bye! Keep [yourself] warm and well fed, without giving him the necessities for the body, what good does that do?
17 So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead).
18 But someone will say [to you then], You [say you] have faith, and I have [good] works. Now you show me your [alleged] faith apart from any [good] works [if you can], and I by [good] works [of obedience] will show you my faith.
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. So do the demons believe and shudder [in terror and horror such as make a man’s hair stand on end and contract the surface of his skin]!
20 Are you willing to be shown [proof], you foolish (unproductive, spiritually deficient) fellow, that faith apart from [good] works is inactive and ineffective and worthless?
21 Was not our forefather Abraham [shown to be] justified (made acceptable to God) by [his] works when he brought to the altar as an offering his [own] son Isaac?
22 You see that [his] faith was cooperating with his works, and [his] faith was completed and reached its supreme expression [when he implemented it] by [good] works.
23 And [so] the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed in (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on) God, and this was accounted to him as righteousness (as conformity to God’s will in thought and deed), and he was called God’s friend.
24 You see that a man is justified (pronounced righteous before God) through what he does and not alone through faith [through works of obedience as well as by what he believes].
25 So also with Rahab the harlot—was she not shown to be justified (pronounced righteous before God) by [good] deeds when she took in the scouts (spies) and sent them away by a different route?
26 For as the human body apart from the spirit is lifeless, so faith apart from [its] works of obedience is also dead.
 
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Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Addendum caused by 5 minute rule.
The issue about works and salvation is works doesn't save but without works there is no salvation. So works is mandatory. Dcon doesn't seem to understand this vital connection.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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The problem is that several gospel preaching denominations use sprinkling and pouring. Presbyterian PCA and Reformed Church in America for example. They have doctrinal statements backing this up. Therefore it is an issue that we are to agree to disagree.
Those gospel preaching denominations using sprinkling and pouring have changed the ordinance unilaterally without authority from Jesus Christ, who gave us the model of baptism himself personally. So I just say they are doing the ordinance wrong and therefore the ordinance is of no affect. That is my belief.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Those gospel preaching denominations using sprinkling and pouring have changed the ordinance unilaterally without authority from Jesus Christ, who gave us the model of baptism himself personally. So I just say they are doing the ordinance wrong and therefore the ordinance is of no affect. That is my belief.
Only in your view. When I researched it years ago there were 2 words that the word baptism could have come from. One was dying cloth and the other was washing the feet. Immersion only derives from dying cloth. Pouring and sprinkling come from washing the feet. This is the reason many gospel teaching denominations adhere to sprinkling and pouring.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

*If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
The reason Jesus did not mention baptism in regards to damnation is because why would a non-believer go out and be baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the HS? They would not. So Jesus says if you do not believe you will be damned. That was enough, no need to mention baptism.

But, not to focus on the damned, let's focus on the believers. To the believer he says: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

Bottom line: For the believer it looks like baptism is necessary. For the unbeliever it looks like baptism is not necessary.

I guess you can argue that because baptism is not necessary for the damned, it must not be necessary for the believer. But I think you would be twisting the scripture out of proportion, and entirely missing it's message.

Another thought: If I teach someone that baptism is necessary, and they are baptized, and then it turns out that it is not necessary, but is simply an outward choice to declare to the world that you are for Jesus, what have we lost. Nothing.
But, if I were to teach someone that it is not necessary, and they determine from my preaching that they will not be baptized, and it turns out that it is necessary, and they are not be saved, what has been lost. Eternal life for you and those you taught.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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The reason Jesus did not mention baptism in regards to damnation is because why would a non-believer go out and be baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the HS? They would not. So Jesus says if you do not believe you will be damned. That was enough, no need to mention baptism.

But, not to focus on the damned, let's focus on the believers. To the believer he says: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

Bottom line: For the believer it looks like baptism is necessary. For the unbeliever it looks like baptism is not necessary.

I guess you can argue that because baptism is not necessary for the damned, it must not be necessary for the believer. But I think you would be twisting the scripture out of proportion, and entirely missing it's message.

Another thought: If I teach someone that baptism is necessary, and they are baptized, and then it turns out that it is not necessary, but is simply an outward choice to declare to the world that you are for Jesus, what have we lost. Nothing.
But, if I were to teach someone that it is not necessary, and they determine from my preaching that they will not be baptized, and it turns out that it is necessary, and they are not be saved, what has been lost. Eternal life for you and those you taught.

Remember this person claims he does not teach works, yet he adds the work of man in water baptism in salvation, (and thereby rejects the work of God in spirit baprism)

he also pretymuch damns everyone in the OT who did not get baptised to hell, since jesus is the same yesterday today and tomorrow, his gospel has always been grace through faith, not works. ,
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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The reason Jesus did not mention baptism in regards to damnation is because why would a non-believer go out and be baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the HS? They would not.
Are you kidding me? There have been many people in various false religions and cults who have received water baptism because they have been taught by their church they they must be water baptized to receive salvation, yet they are not authentic believers. I've heard numerous testimonies from people who have received Christ through faith and are receiving water baptism, now as a believer, that admitted to receiving water baptism at their previous church, prior to truly receiving Christ through faith and were not genuine believers when they were previously baptized. I have that same testimony.

I've never heard of an atheist receiving water baptism, yet there is still a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." Such people may believe "mental assent" in the existence and historical facts about Christ, such as He is the Son of God and His death, burial and resurrection "happened," yet they are still not trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation and are instead, also trusting in works for salvation.

So Jesus says if you do not believe you will be damned. That was enough, no need to mention baptism.
There is a need to mention, "whoever is not baptized will be condemned," if baptism was absolutely necessary for salvation.

But, not to focus on the damned, let's focus on the believers. To the believer he says: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.
Again, general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized, but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Bottom line: For the believer it looks like baptism is necessary. For the unbeliever it looks like baptism is not necessary.
For the believer, Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. For the unbeliever, Christ's finished work of redemption is IN-sufficient to save, so they turn to supplements. The believer trusts in Christ alone for salvation and not in works.

I guess you can argue that because baptism is not necessary for the damned, it must not be necessary for the believer. But I think you would be twisting the scripture out of proportion, and entirely missing it's message.
Believers are commanded to be water baptized after conversion (Acts 10:43-48). I received water baptism after my conversion, but I was not saved by water baptism, but by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31).

Another thought: If I teach someone that baptism is necessary, and they are baptized, and then it turns out that it is not necessary, but is simply an outward choice to declare to the world that you are for Jesus, what have we lost. Nothing.
But, if I were to teach someone that it is not necessary, and they determine from my preaching that they will not be baptized, and it turns out that it is necessary, and they are not be saved, what has been lost. Eternal life for you and those you taught.
Why would a believer refuse to be water baptized? I can't think of one believer that I know who has refused water baptism after their conversion. I don't teach believers to neglect getting water baptized, but I also don't teach baptismal regeneration.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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The reason Jesus did not mention baptism in regards to damnation is because why would a non-believer go out and be baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the HS? They would not. So Jesus says if you do not believe you will be damned. That was enough, no need to mention baptism.

But, not to focus on the damned, let's focus on the believers. To the believer he says: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

Bottom line: For the believer it looks like baptism is necessary. For the unbeliever it looks like baptism is not necessary.

I guess you can argue that because baptism is not necessary for the damned, it must not be necessary for the believer. But I think you would be twisting the scripture out of proportion, and entirely missing it's message.

Another thought: If I teach someone that baptism is necessary, and they are baptized, and then it turns out that it is not necessary, but is simply an outward choice to declare to the world that you are for Jesus, what have we lost. Nothing.
But, if I were to teach someone that it is not necessary, and they determine from my preaching that they will not be baptized, and it turns out that it is necessary, and they are not be saved, what has been lost. Eternal life for you and those you taught.
In regards to baptism keep in mind the "great commission".

Mathew 28:16 to 20 (great commission) AMPC (Amplified Classic)

16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed and made appointment with them.
17 And when they saw Him, they fell down and worshiped Him; but some doubted.
18 Jesus approached and, breaking the silence, said to them, All authority (all power of rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
19 Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 Teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days (perpetually, uniformly, and on every occasion), to the [very] close and consummation of the age. Amen (so let it be).
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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You wont see me boast of anything. Again, i boast in christ.

Twice paul said not f works lest anyone should boast, the word boast and work put together should scare you, the fact it does not should scare anyone listening to you
I only put boast and work together to make a point about your boasting. I have never boasted on this forum of my great works, and I never will. That is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. I may have taken your words wrong, and if I did, I apologize.
Again, we should not be arguing about boasting, so have the last word, but I will not respond on this subject abain. We both must agree on this subject.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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no, james spoke of he contrast between no faith all all, and mere believe, if one claims to have faith and does not even have one work, they are liars, their faith is dead. His fcus was on those who had a claimed faith only, not th one se who had true living faith,

See, you focus to much on works, and basically ignore faith.
When one says they have faith in Jesus Christ, which all on this form have done, is that not a 'claim'? So if James is talking about those that 'claim' to have faith in Jesus, he is talking about who say they have faith in Jesus. If you say you have faith in Jesus and good works do not follow, then you never really had faith, or if you did, it is dead.

Don't you admit that good works follow faith for everyone that claims they have faith in Christ?