Not By Works

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benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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In regards to baptism keep in mind the "great commission".

Mathew 28:16 to 20 (great commission) AMPC (Amplified Classic)

16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed and made appointment with them.
17 And when they saw Him, they fell down and worshiped Him; but some doubted.
18 Jesus approached and, breaking the silence, said to them, All authority (all power of rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
19 Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 Teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days (perpetually, uniformly, and on every occasion), to the [very] close and consummation of the age. Amen (so let it be).
I will, thank you.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I did not add the works of man. I added wjat Jesus said to add, remember what he said: those who believe and are baptized shall be saved. Now I agree that Jesus was a man, but not your ordinary garden variety man.
water baptism is a work of man, youand the man baptising you are doing the work not god

god said to feed the poor, not forsake assembling together, remember the lords day, and take communion, all of these and the many other commands god gave are works,

if your going to claim one work of righteousness (water baptism) is required to be saved, you better demand they all are required.

It is the same argument used by the jews, only their baptism argument was circumcision, god required it. We know what paul said in galations and collossions, he same arguments against adding a work of the law is just as applicable as adding the work of the nt.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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You boast every time you say water baptism is required, and 5at obedience is required. Your claiming you were saved by those acts you performed.

I pray one day you see this. I honestly do
That is not a boast, it is a biblical fact.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I still believe Jesus's simple words: whoever believeth and is baptized shall be saved....
I believe and as a result, was baptized (by god), and as a result was saved at that very moment,

i obeyed god and was baptised in water a year later when i was able.

god did not withhold my salvation untl he pastor decided to have a baptismal where i could be baptised,
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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I still believe Jesus's simple words: whoever believeth and is baptized shall be saved....
I believe Jesus' simple words as well, along with the rest of the verse - "but he who does not believe will be condemned." It's the lack of belief that causes condemnation, not the lack of baptism. We must not build doctrine on one half of one verse or ignore the fact that Jesus left out baptism in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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the word baptise literally means to immerse,

so yes, you just showed two baptisms (one in water one in the holy spirit)

eph 4 says one baptism, you need to resolve which one, it can not be both.
Acts 2 requires 2, which we do today. Do you know a good Christian that has not been water baptized?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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In Matthew 28:19-20, we have here a command of Jesus to go and make disciples of all nations, and baptize them. However, it does not say here that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. The same command also includes the clause, "teaching them to observe all things" that Christ has commanded them. If we are to assume that baptism is essential to salvation, then by consistent interpretation of the text, we would assume that absolute obedience to all of Christ's commands is also necessary for salvation, which would further equate to salvation by works and tickle the ears of those who teach sinless perfection.
Wow, how terrible it must be to think that we would assume that obedience to all of Christ's commands are essential for salvation. You must hate to read the bible except for some of Paul's writings about grace?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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He said baptise THEM,

ie, they were already saved disciples of God. Before they were baptised,
There is no proof that you are saved before you are baptized. If you were, the bible would say that. The bible actually says teach them and baptize them, implying that baptism is necessary for membership in the church and for salvation, and then Jesus, in the bible puts it in plain words, Mark 16:16 says those that believe and are baptized shall be saved.

Hard to fight the Word of God.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Wow, how terrible it must be to think that we would assume that obedience to all of Christ's commands are essential for salvation. You must hate to read the bible except for some of Paul's writings about grace?
Straw man argument. Obedience to all of Christ's commands is what we are to strive for as Christians, yet none of us live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life (exactly as Jesus lived) 100% of the time. Maybe you believe that you do?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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I think you just explained the context of james 2. Where james asked people to test their faith to see if it was a living faith or dead faith. (Moreso directed at people who were hearers and not doers)
Yes, James directs his words to those that say they have faith, but are hearers of the word only, and not doers of the word.
IOW hearers only are those people that claim they have faith in Jesus, but that's it, no good works accompany their faith, and therefore it is easy to say that they were never saved in the first place. James is right on target.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Amen! You don't baptize lost unbelievers in order to make them saved disciples, but because they are saved disciples.
The bible does not distinquish. Jesus just says teach them and baptize them. Also he says, those that believe and are baptized are saved. No discussion about were you lost or saved, or did you truly have immersion with the HS, just simply teach and baptize, those who believe and are baptized shall be saved. Simple and sweet.
 
Mar 14, 2011
53,052
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There is no proof that you are saved before you are baptized. If you were, the bible would say that. The bible actually says teach them and baptize them, implying that baptism is necessary for membership in the church and for salvation, and then Jesus, in the bible puts it in plain words, Mark 16:16 says those that believe and are baptized shall be saved.

Hard to fight the Word of God.
lol

go therfore and make disciples of all nations

the first command

Baptize them

the second

he said to baptise those who were already made disciples (them) he did not say baptise people to make them disciples.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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The bible does not distinquish. Jesus just says teach them and baptize them. Also he says, those that believe and are baptized are saved. No discussion about were you lost or saved, or did you truly have immersion with the HS, just simply teach and baptize, those who believe and are baptized shall be saved. Simple and sweet.
This is what happens when you isolate one half of one verse, ignore the second half of the verse and also ignore what Jesus said in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 -- Are these verses simple and sweet as well?

Again, those who believe and are baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.

What about those who believe, but are unable to receive water baptism before they die, like the thief on the cross? Will they be saved? At what point do you believe someone is saved? The moment they believe or not until later, after they receive water baptism?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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water baptism is a work of man, youand the man baptising you are doing the work not god

god said to feed the poor, not forsake assembling together, remember the lords day, and take communion, all of these and the many other commands god gave are works,

if your going to claim one work of righteousness (water baptism) is required to be saved, you better demand they all are required.

It is the same argument used by the jews, only their baptism argument was circumcision, god required it. We know what paul said in galations and collossions, he same arguments against adding a work of the law is just as applicable as adding the work of the nt.
I'm not sure why we are arguing this point. God said to baptize and he himself went to a man and was fully immersion baptized in water. It is a command of God to baptize, it is not a man-made doctrine. So stop with 'you are doing the work, not God'. That is a silly statement.

I do say all the commands of Jesus are necessary for salvation. Don't you? Not the works of the law of Moses, but the law of Christ. If you are not able to keep up, then fall back on your OSAS with no works added doctrine, and rip out any of the words that Jesus gave us in the NT, because apparently he was born, lived, and died during the law of Moses, and not the day of grace.
What an absurd argument.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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This is what happens when you isolate one half of one verse, ignore the second half of the verse and also ignore what Jesus said in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 -- Are these verses simple and sweet as well?

Again, those who believe and are baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.

What about those who believe, but are unable to receive water baptism before they die, like the thief on the cross? Will they be saved? At what point do you believe someone is saved? The moment they believe or not until later, after they receive water baptism?

I know people who have come to faith and gotten saved who have chaged their life drastically, show fruits which could only come from salvation, including change in sin life, and doing sacrificial work they would never think of doing befor

yet were so afraid of public speaking and standing up in front of people, they resisted baptism for a few years until they had more faith,

i guess according to ben and others, those people were never saved the who,e time they did all that fruit bearing, they had to wait until they stoo in front of hundreds and gave their testimony and allowed themselved to be immersed in water,

sad. So sad the ways they think.
 
Mar 14, 2011
53,052
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I'm not sure why we are arguing this point. God said to baptize and he himself went to a man and was fully immersion baptized in water. It is a command of God to baptize, it is not a man-made doctrine. So stop with 'you are doing the work, not God'. That is a silly statement.

I do say all the commands of Jesus are necessary for salvation. Don't you? Not the works of the law of Moses, but the law of Christ. If you are not able to keep up, then fall back on your OSAS with no works added doctrine, and rip out any of the words that Jesus gave us in the NT, because apparently he was born, lived, and died during the law of Moses, and not the day of grace.
What an absurd argument.

Your trying to replace spirit baptism with the baptism of man, and saying a person must earn their salvation by that baptism.

that is a pretu good argument to hash out.

I have no issue with baptism, it is a command of god, i have an issue of making it part of the salvation process
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,276
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I believe and as a result, was baptized (by god), and as a result was saved at that very moment,

i obeyed god and was baptised in water a year later when i was able.

god did not withhold my salvation untl he pastor decided to have a baptismal where i could be baptised,
All I can say is what the bible says: Jesus said, whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved. You take it from there.

I think you are the person that said God would not condemn you for not forgiving everyone their sins against you. Well, be careful with God's word. You seem to be willing to bend here a little and bend there a little so that you can fit Paul's grace preaching with the Jesus's good works preaching.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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I believe Jesus' simple words as well, along with the rest of the verse - "but he who does not believe will be condemned." It's the lack of belief that causes condemnation, not the lack of baptism. We must not build doctrine on one half of one verse or ignore the fact that Jesus left out baptism in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Hi Mailmandan, another reason for the workers to believe that works are required for salvation is they are mixing our position in Christ, which is our imputed righteousness, and our practice, what we do after we are saved.

Born again believers will always be plentiful of works for Christ and That is our practice after salvation. Our position in Christ is the same as Abraham's, Christians are saved by grace through faith,
"Not By Works."

To continue to mix our position in Christ with our practice after we are saved, is a fallacy and a false doctrine that workers are pushing. We are saved by grace through faith, Not By Works, as was Abraham.

Abraham Justified by faith; And the Imputed Righteousness of Christ:
21) being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised.
22) This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.”
23) The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone,
24) but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25) He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification
 
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